Still don't understand how the match works. :(

[funpebbles]

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I read the NRMP algorithm and it seems they start first with our lists, at the top, and make tentative matches if a program has an open spot and also ranked us anywhere on their list. I'm guessing it's then up to program to either keep us or remove us from program for someone else they hope to get? Does the algorithm factor where on the program's list they ranked us (it doesnt read like it does) and if it doesnt then why do programs even submit their own ROLs rather than have general idea of who they want more than other, who they will def keep, etc?

I was also surprised to learn programs don't rank everyone they interview. Do they rank the majority? Will they let you know if they ranked you?

Lastly, how long do programs have to decide whether to certify a tentative match? If we rank first a program we really like but have no idea how they feel about us, do we risk all spots getting filled at a second choice where the program expressed they liked us? Programs also submit on Feb 26?

 

[evilbooyaa]

The way they make tentative matches are based on the program's rank list. Whoever is at the top of the program's rank list has 1st dibs. If they don't want it (rank another place higher that also accepts them) then the program goes to the #2 spot. Same thing happens. And so on, until someone who wanted to be in that program (not necessarily ranked #1, but ranked the program and is out of luck at places that are higher up) matches in the spot.

All you have to remember is rank your programs in the order that YOU would want to go to them. There is no 'gaming' the system through the match system.

 

[funpebbles]

Thanks! I guess this is the part I don't understand:

Matches are “tentative” because an applicant who is matched to a program may be removed from that program to make room for an applicant more preferred by the program. When an applicant is removed from a tentative match, an attempt is made to re-match that applicant, starting from the top of the applicant’s ROL. This process is carried out for all applicants until each applicant has either been tentatively matched to the most preferred choice possible or all choices submitted by the applicant have been exhausted.

Is this all done simultaneously, like in a matter of minutes, during one iteration? Do most programs rank people at least somewhere on list if they showed up and no red flags? They submit lists on Feb 24 as well? What happens between Feb 24 and March 11 then?

 

[funpebbles]

Also why do programs care then if you come to revisit, are interested etc? No one would know if they got their top choice or not so why not just put her first and hope for best?

Lastly, what is strongest language a PD would use to express interest? Is it "you are an excellent candidate and very good fit for our program" or is it "we plan to rank you highly?" If the former, isnt that just at attempt to get you to put them first?

 

[gdmd1111]

You can never trust what a PD or anyone from a program is going to say to you in terms of "you are our top applicant" or "or we are going to rank you #1". No program wants to go deep into their rank list. With that said, language along the lines of "you are an excellent candidate and a very good fit..." is probably true...but there are probably many excellent candidates and good fits. In the end, make the rank lists in the order of programs YOU want to go to, because it is designed to be in your favor.

The reason it takes so long after you and programs certify your rank lists is that the algorithm is run numerous times to make sure the same outcome is delivered every time. Can you imagine the debacle it would cause if there was a single error in a single match? It would throw everyone else's match off...

 

[Ok2Panic]

Also why do programs care then if you come to revisit, are interested etc? No one would know if they got their top choice or not so why not just put her first and hope for best?

Lastly, what is strongest language a PD would use to express interest? Is it "you are an excellent candidate and very good fit for our program" or is it "we plan to rank you highly?" If the former, isnt that just at attempt to get you to put them first?

From what I've heard, programs that care about revisits and applicant interest and stuff do so because even though they want to match the best possible candidates, they also want to match someone who wants to be there. So getting the person that you previously ranked #1 might not be as favorable as getting someone who was #5, if the person at #1 doesn't really like the place as much and ultimately was hoping to not end up there.

And a tentative match is tentative in terms of the computer system. There's no input from the program or anything about said tentative candidate. You're tentative in the respect that you can be bumped around based on other applicants and where you are on the program's ROL, etc, until everything is finalized.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

What is strongest language a PD would use to express interest? Is it "you are an excellent candidate and very good fit for our program" or is it "we plan to rank you highly?" If the former, isnt that just at attempt to get you to put them first?

No way of knowing. It's not a secret code you should waste time trying to decipher. Every statement from a PD should be considered a vague polite expression of interest with no underlying substance.

 

[mvenus929]

From what I've heard, programs that care about revisits and applicant interest and stuff do so because even though they want to match the best possible candidates, they also want to match someone who wants to be there..

Take my notes with a grain of salt, since I'm going through the process this year.

But, I think programs want to know who is more likely to go there when they are sending out interviews, rather than when they are ranking. They have a limited number of interview slots, so why would they want to waste one on someone who would go several other places over their program? From what I've heard, programs rank applicants in the order they want them, regardless of whether or not they are likely to rank the program high. They have nothing to lose by doing so, though they obviously will want people who will be happy with their placement.

That said, there are many programs that say they don't care about revisits and applicant interest, because they have enough people who are willing to match regardless of whatever games people play to get ranked higher.

 

[Geekchick921]

While simplified, I think this video explains it pretty well. I'm pretty sure it's accurate.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Take my notes with a grain of salt, since I'm going through the process this year.

But, I think programs want to know who is more likely to go there when they are sending out interviews, rather than when they are ranking. They have a limited number of interview slots, so why would they want to waste one on someone who would go several other places over their program? From what I've heard, programs rank applicants in the order they want them, regardless of whether or not they are likely to rank the program high. They have nothing to lose by doing so, though they obviously will want people who will be happy with their placement.

That said, there are many programs that say they don't care about revisits and applicant interest, because they have enough people who are willing to match regardless of whatever games people play to get ranked higher.

Sadly this is not always the case. For whatever reason it is an ego stoker among program directors to brag that they only had to go xxx slots deep on their rank list to fill their class. So there is some gamesmanship in filling out the rank list and trying to figure out what the candidates will do. Which sucks for everyone.

 

[Ok2Panic]

Take my notes with a grain of salt, since I'm going through the process this year.

But, I think programs want to know who is more likely to go there when they are sending out interviews, rather than when they are ranking. They have a limited number of interview slots, so why would they want to waste one on someone who would go several other places over their program? From what I've heard, programs rank applicants in the order they want them, regardless of whether or not they are likely to rank the program high. They have nothing to lose by doing so, though they obviously will want people who will be happy with their placement.

That said, there are many programs that say they don't care about revisits and applicant interest, because they have enough people who are willing to match regardless of whatever games people play to get ranked higher.

The impression I've gotten is along the lines of what southernIM has said. It's definitely variable by program, and maybe specialty. I know that there are programs I've interviewed at that have a reputation for really paying attention to who revists and that kind of thing, and other places I've interviewed at have said "Look, we don't do that stuff. If you want to come back and revisit, that's fine, but it's not changing anything at all for us." I'm also on the applicant side of the process too, so, what do I know. But I got the sense that, especially in the specialty I'm applying to where most places take between 1-3 people, they don't want to go far down on the list, and want to make sure that the 1 or 2 people they get also want to be there.

 

[link2swim06]

The impression I've gotten is along the lines of what southernIM has said. It's definitely variable by program, and maybe specialty. I know that there are programs I've interviewed at that have a reputation for really paying attention to who revists and that kind of thing, and other places I've interviewed at have said "Look, we don't do that stuff. If you want to come back and revisit, that's fine, but it's not changing anything at all for us." I'm also on the applicant side of the process too, so, what do I know. But I got the sense that, especially in the specialty I'm applying to where most places take between 1-3 people, they don't want to go far down on the list, and want to make sure that the 1 or 2 people they get also want to be there.

Interesting... What specialty?

7/7 of the EM interviews I have done thus far made a big point in saying that thank you notes and revisits can not increase your spot on the rank list.

 

[Ok2Panic]

Interesting... What specialty?

7/7 of the EM interviews I have done thus far made a big point in saying that thank you notes and revisits can not increase your spot on the rank list.

Neurosurgery

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Interesting... What specialty?

7/7 of the EM interviews I have done thus far made a big point in saying that thank you notes and revisits can not increase your spot on the rank list.

I actually think most programs and most fields despise the 2nd look visits. They were in previous years something you might see one or two applicants who had a particular reason for a revisit (bringing a spouse along and wanted to see town/ job market eg). Now PDs are having to field requests for them weekly from candidates who think it is going to improve their match chances.

 

[swamprat]

Idk a couple of places I interviewed at kinda emphasized to come back and revisit them if your still interested later in the season which I'm taking as if you are going to rank them high you should do a second look. Whether or not that changes things on their end no one will ever know so if I decide I will be ranking them highly I will be doing a second look regardless of how much of a nuisance and expensive it is.