Stories of redemption from red flags and successfully matched into competitive surgical specialty?

[ATPase3]

Any positive stories?

Preclinical academic issues.
MSPE adjective.

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[DOVinciRobot]

What is the red flag

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Apparently somebody on the medical school Reddit failed step 1 and said they were sitting on 20 gen surg interviews. Hard to believe but maybe they went to Harvard or something

 

[mrbreakfast]

Depends what you mean by "red flag." I know a guy who matched ortho with a step 1 in the 220s. Of course he made up for it in other areas and this was awhile ago.

Not to discourage you, but some of the stuff you see online regarding "redemption stories" isn't true. It's better to plan to be realistic than plan to be lucky.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Apparently somebody on the medical school Reddit failed step 1 and said they were sitting on 20 gen surg interviews. Hard to believe but maybe they went to Harvard or something

Gen Surg notoriously screens for Step failures, and I highly suspect that is a lie. We don’t even interview home students with failures.

 

[operaman]

Very rare.

All depends on the flag and the rest of the application. It’s pretty rare though that someone has the chops to get a red flag while also being able to otherwise look like a star. You see posts all the time asking “I just failed XYZ preclinical course. If I crush Step 2, can I have a shot at a top residency?” But plenty of people with no failures struggle to distinguish themselves on those exams, much less those who are coming at it with a huge foundational knowledge deficit. Half the students in the country score below the median.

When I’ve seen people match despite red flags, it’s usually to their home program or some place where they did a research year or have some sort of connection. In the surgical subs, too many stellar applicants out there that nobody is going to take the risk on someone they don’t know.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Gen Surg notoriously screens for Step failures, and I highly suspect that is a lie. We don’t even interview home students with failures.

Is there a common step 2 cut off for gen surg as well besides pass/fail

 

[mrbreakfast]

Is there a common step 2 cut off for gen surg as well besides pass/fail

Most competitive programs across specialties have a cutoff; some community programs don't. I'm speculating here, but wouldn't be surprised if many GS programs have a cutoff of 230 or higher.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Is there a common step 2 cut off for gen surg as well besides pass/fail

230 is a very common floor. Most programs expect 240+ on Step 2. Anything below that raises questions of your ability to pass boards, even with the rest of the app solid I’ve still seen that question raised repeatedly by faculty.

 

[Redpancreas]

230 is a very common floor. Most programs expect 240+ on Step 2. Anything below that raises questions of your ability to pass boards, even with the rest of the app solid I’ve still seen that question raised repeatedly by faculty.

Not to derail this thread, but Step 2 CK 7-8 years ago could have been taken after applications were submitted with an average close to just under 240. There’s been a helluva score bloat that has nothing to do with the medical school and everything to do with the recent commercial resources everyone’s using. I just find it funny how the medical establishment’s not putting in any effort to increase the quality of the education, but still expecting the higher scores that come from ANKI/Amboss, 1000 more questions added to UWorld, etc.

Just want to put that out there. Agree 230 today should be a floor.

 

[longhaul3]

Not to derail this thread, but Step 2 CK 7-8 years ago could have been taken after applications were submitted with an average close to just under 240. There’s been a helluva score bloat that has nothing to do with the medical school and everything to do with the recent commercial resources everyone’s using. I just find it funny how the medical establishment’s not putting in any effort to increase the quality of the education, but still expecting the higher scores that come from ANKI/Amboss, 1000 more questions added to UWorld, etc.

Just want to put that out there. Agree 230 today should be a floor.

This is more because Step 2 is now actually important, no? People really care about it now and study for it unlike back in the day. Nobody I knew studied at all for CK. I took it on the interview trail in November or December of fourth year with interviews the day before and day after

I think no matter the study materials available people are going to do better because they care and study more

 

[mrbreakfast]

The same can be said about Step 1. I know physicians (who are much older than me) who did not study for step 1 back in the day.

The importance of Step scores, as noted above, is for prediction of board pass rates. How important that is depends on your program/specialty. At my program our residents do not have to score very high at all on their in-service exams (in my opinion) to advance. I don't know how widespread this is, but at every surgery program I am aware of, there is a very real/actual risk of not advancing due to a below-target in-service exam.

 

[JuicedToTheSocks]

230 is a very common floor. Most programs expect 240+ on Step 2. Anything below that raises questions of your ability to pass boards, even with the rest of the app solid I’ve still seen that question raised repeatedly by faculty.

Doubt that. If you can pass the steps, you can pass the boards. Check out this breakdown: The Mythology of USMLE Step 1 Scores and Board Certification

Board scores are actually pretty meaningless and are incorrectly used, which is why they went P/F

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Doubt that. If you can pass the steps, you can pass the boards. Check out this breakdown: The Mythology of USMLE Step 1 Scores and Board Certification

Board scores are actually pretty meaningless and are incorrectly used, which is why they went P/F

If anything they still need something to stratify with other than school name when they get 1500 applications

 

[longhaul3]

The same can be said about Step 1. I know physicians (who are much older than me) who did not study for step 1 back in the day.

The importance of Step scores, as noted above, is for prediction of board pass rates. How important that is depends on your program/specialty. At my program our residents do not have to score very high at all on their in-service exams (in my opinion) to advance. I don't know how widespread this is, but at every surgery program I am aware of, there is a very real/actual risk of not advancing due to a below-target in-service exam.

Doubt that. If you can pass the steps, you can pass the boards. Check out this breakdown: The Mythology of USMLE Step 1 Scores and Board Certification

Board scores are actually pretty meaningless and are incorrectly used, which is why they went P/F

If anything they still need something to stratify with other than school name when they get 1500 applications

Yeah I think the board-passing angle is moot at this point. Almost 100% of residents pass the neurosurgery written board exam on their first attempt, even as junior residents; there is minimal risk that any given applicant would fail regardless of step score. The exam is very difficult to score well on but the passing threshold is very low.

One might say it's a chicken-egg scenario since essentially only people with high Step scores are taking the exam to begin with, but the pass rate was high decades ago before USMLE madness. Step score is just used as one way to compare applicants.

So I think if one of the most competitive/highest step score specialties has a very easy-to-pass board exam and a high pass rate but still selects for very high step scores, it's not about the board exam

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Doubt that. If you can pass the steps, you can pass the boards. Check out this breakdown: The Mythology of USMLE Step 1 Scores and Board Certification

Board scores are actually pretty meaningless and are incorrectly used, which is why they went P/F

I’m just telling you what the faculty say when they see low scores.

 

[Redpancreas]

If anything they still need something to stratify with other than school name when they get 1500 applications

This.

Regarding the main question, admissions/selection committees like to see normal applications. They hate red flags. An applicant with average boards/no red flags beats the one who's got red flags and worked double to overcome them. That's the truth, like it or not. I myself have red flags and have accepted that anything competitive is an uphill battle. It doesn't make me a bad physician, just one who didn't make the best of the opportunities in the moment.

I've also seen it from the other side in administration. Red flag candidates consistently have some significant weakness. While they could be awesome people that have compensated and are maybe even exceptional in other ways, it doesn't make up for their limitations which disproportionately affect the remaining class. You need to be well rounded.