Straight A's - but at the cost of antagonizing my profs - is it worth it?

[UnclePhil]

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As long as they're not writing you LORs, I'm all for it. The different between an A and B can jeopardize your entire career. We're taught from day 1 that the most important thing that med schools look at is your GPA and MCAT score. If the prof goofs resulting in you losing points, hell yea why shouldn't you do all you can to argue for those points. Your future basically depends on these grades

notsosureifsrs

 

[music2doc]

notsosureifsrs

Seeing as pre-allo is more full of neuroticism and veiled rituals than the Olympics, I'm guessing he's serious. That said, it's a laughable statement. Students that are this obsessed really are quite annoying. Come on, people... I have several grades below the B line and I still have a 3.8+ GPA. Trials build character. Now get back to your studies so you don't have to argue points back on your next exam for lack of preparation (AGAIN)!

 

[music2doc]

I've been teaching at the college level for about four years now. Observations:

3) Arguing points back on a test is acceptable. In many cases, I get an answer that is conceptually correct but factually off-base. I have an answer I'm looking for but that you, the student, didn't give me. I need your argument to prove you know the material and have taken a different approach rather than blindly guessing based on a razor-thin understanding of the material. It all depends on how you do it. If you write a well-reasoned, occasionally cited, rebuttal to a point, I'll be much more likely to address it than if you come and whine about the unfair test.

Absolutely. I think it's all in how it's done. That said, the OP really seems to be describing a less-well-thought-out and more whiny approach. If a student has a legitimate problem, that's one thing, but most of the OP's complaints were mere matters of style. That's like walking into Subway and complaining that they will only accept credit card or cash and not the check you just spent 2 minutes filling out because you didn't read the sign first (or ask). It's petty and stupid. Get over it.

4) As the professor, I get to say what is and is not acceptable test material. I tell students that if I talk about it, it's fair game. It's more appropriate to test topics we spend more time on, but that's not always how it goes. If I think I should test concepts instead of specifics, too bad; you should figure out the concepts as you do the techniques. In medicine, you're not going to be allowed to just forget things that are rare; school should prep you for that.

Generally, my experience has been that concepts are the best things to test on. Details change from experiment to experiment, while concepts often remain fairly consistent. Sure, students may sometimes hate it, but frankly they need to get over it and learn the material. That's what I did when I had ochem lab hit me with crazy questions that had little to do w/ lab. You do what you have to to perform at the required level.

5) As for "not getting away with ****" or "f*cking over students", I invite you to try and teach an introductory or intermediate science class. The level of stupidity exhibited by the average student is astounding. I give a question that spans two pages. I verbally warn students to fill out both parts. I have a bolded reminder at the bottom of page one. 1/3 of the students forgot to do page 2. I administer a test question in three different ways during class and homework. People still lose points.

We're not f*cking over students when we hand out bad grades or have a low crap tolerance. We are correctly responding to an atmosphere of failure and persistently low achievement. It's very hard to stay positive and helpful when you're bombarded by completely unwarranted entitlement. When you're punished by your department for being strict on cheating or teaching difficult content, what do you think results?

More entitlement and less actual learning by students.

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

OP, Listen to the advice that everyone is giving you. I, too, used to be that student but not neccessaritly with grades but with my scholarship money. There was a research program, that I know I should have received call the Howard Hughes Program for the second year and the chair of my department told me that she doesn't think I should get it becuase I had a lot of opportunities already and I should let other students get a try. I was a HH scholar the year before and when I re-apply only 4 students applied for 10 slots for that upcoming year. They decided to re-open the app, and put me back in the competition even though every clearly missed the MAIN DEADLINE. I talked to my chair and asked her should I apply to MBRS-RISE and she told me NO because they wanted research people and not pre-med. I am competitive for both careers so it wouldn't matter.

I didn't apply for RISE and I actually missed the deadline and was waiting for the HH decision which I didn't get for the aforementioned reasons. I didn't think that was fair because she def. pulled excuses out her a*s.

Stating I am a senior, I have research experience and I already have UNCF/Merck so that wouldn't be fair. All of these "stipulations" were not in the requirements for this program.

Long Story short: I DID NOT GET PHI BETA KAPPA. THE STUDENTS THAT GOT IT DID NOT HAVE THE CREDENTIALS I HAD SUCH AS MHIRT, UNCF/MERCK, FOUNDED ORGS, WENT TO NEPAL AND GHANA, HOWARD HUGHES RESEARCH SCHOLAR, FACES SCHOLAR, AND ETC. PLUS AT THAT TIME I WAS THE ONLY FULBRIGHT WINNER IN MY SCHOOL. I AM STILL MAD ESPECIALLY IF THE OTHER TEACHERS, 2 EXACTLY, TOLD ME THAT PEOPLE IN MY DEPART. DIDN'T WANT ME TO GET PBK! 😡

 

[SBR249]

lolwut? I can haz engleesh?

 

[TheMightySmiter]

OP, Listen to the advice that everyone is giving you. I, too, used to be that student but not neccessaritly with grades but with my scholarship money. There was a research program, that I know I should have received call the Howard Hughes Program for the second year and the chair of my department told me that she doesn't think I should get it becuase I had a lot of opportunities already and I should let other students get a try. I was a HH scholar the year before and when I re-apply only 4 students applied for 10 slots for that upcoming year. They decided to re-open the app, and put me back in the competition even though every clearly missed the MAIN DEADLINE. I talked to my chair and asked her should I apply to MBRS-RISE and she told me NO because they wanted research people and not pre-med. I am competitive for both careers so it wouldn't matter.

I didn't apply for RISE and I actually missed the deadline and was waiting for the HH decision which I didn't get for the aforementioned reasons. I didn't think that was fair because she def. pulled excuses out her a*s.

Stating I am a senior, I have research experience and I already have UNCF/Merck so that wouldn't be fair. All of these "stipulations" were not in the requirements for this program.

Long Story short: I DID NOT GET PHI BETA KAPPA. THE STUDENTS THAT GOT IT DID NOT HAVE THE CREDENTIALS I HAD SUCH AS MHIRT, UNCF/MERCK, FOUNDED ORGS, WENT TO NEPAL AND GHANA, HOWARD HUGHES RESEARCH SCHOLAR, FACES SCHOLAR, AND ETC. PLUS AT THAT TIME I WAS THE ONLY FULBRIGHT WINNER IN MY SCHOOL. I AM STILL MAD ESPECIALLY IF THE OTHER TEACHERS, 2 EXACTLY, TOLD ME THAT PEOPLE IN MY DEPART. DIDN'T WANT ME TO GET PBK! 😡

Whoa there, bro, chill out. I was invited to be Phi Beta Kappa at my post-bacc school and turned it down, because I really just saw it as something extra to put on my app. Adcoms can already see that I have a high post-bacc GPA, I didn't see any reason to pay the $75 membership fee just to fill out an additional slot in AMCAS. If you have all the credentials that you list, including Fulbright, I really don't think Phi Beta Kappa is something you need to worry about AT ALL. Maybe these teachers specifically said that they didn't want you to be PBK because you treated them with an attitude like that in your post--entitled and arrogant.

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

Whoa there, bro, chill out. I was invited to be Phi Beta Kappa at my post-bacc school and turned it down, because I really just saw it as something extra to put on my app. Adcoms can already see that I have a high post-bacc GPA, I didn't see any reason to pay the $75 membership fee just to fill out an additional slot in AMCAS. If you have all the credentials that you list, including Fulbright, I really don't think Phi Beta Kappa is something you need to worry about AT ALL. Maybe these teachers specifically said that they didn't want you to be PBK because you treated them with an attitude like that in your post--entitled and arrogant.

I don't think I am entitled nor arrogant but if you work hard on something you tend to wonder why you didn't get certain things. Wouldn't you want to know WHY? It's just like applying to medical school, if you had the GPA, MCAT, Recs, ECs, and Interviewing Skills, you wouldn't want to know why you got rejected from majority of medical schools and wait listed on 5 of them. I think it's not a sense of entitlement but if you work hard and earn you tend to wonder why you did wrong. Also it's confidence not arrogance. I work hard and I am sure you too work hard and maybe in some cases harder than me and some other pre-meds. I am just saying.

Some pre-meds feel this way esp when it comes to URM "advantages" 😱😎

 

[UnclePhil]

Seeing as pre-allo is more full of neuroticism and veiled rituals than the Olympics, I'm guessing he's serious. That said, it's a laughable statement. Students that are this obsessed really are quite annoying. Come on, people... I have several grades below the B line and I still have a 3.8+ GPA. Trials build character. Now get back to your studies so you don't have to argue points back on your next exam for lack of preparation (AGAIN)!

I remember the first time I got below an A in college. It was 2nd semester of my sophomore year. I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure I lived through it and if it jeopardized my career, I haven't been made aware that it has done so.

 

[StephanieZ]

I don't think I've ever asked for points back on an exam, but I guess I just assume that unless it's an actual math error or clear grading mistake (like the prof accidentally marked me off for a multiple choice that was obviously the correct answer) the professor has a better idea of what is correct than I do.

This. Obviously, if your multiple choice or fill in the blank answer is just marked wrong when you put the right answer, tell the professor. That's reasonable. I have only ever once asked for extra points on an essay question in my whole college career, and that was because the professor for that class was so nitpicky he marked 12 points off a 20 point question that I felt like I gave a VERY good answer for, plus those 12 points actually WERE the difference between an A and a B in the class. He refused so I let it go. Waah, I got a B. Big whoop.

 

[StrongWork]

You know what separates the men from the boys here? If you could get your straight As without being a tool.

I surely wouldn't want to be putting up with students like you if I was a medical school professor. I hope you learn to change your attitude.

 

[StrongWork]

Wow, this forum is getting pretty disgusting. There are at least 3 comments making fun of the OP and calling him a tool, you people need lives. If you're not going to help him, don't read his question. There's no point in reading then calling him a tool. As for the OP, keep doing what you're doing but always be respectful.

standing up for the OP, go you!

 

[n3xa]

You know what separates the men from the boys here? If you could get your straight As without being a tool.

But I don't have balls. :cry:

 

[StrongWork]

But I don't have balls. :cry:

oh... you don't?

Doesn't apply to you then, I guess. TOOL ON!

 

[ShockDoctrine]

everyone here deals with it. you should too.

 

[paul411]

Straight A's - but at the cost of antagonizing my profs - is it worth it? No

This may be shocking, but it is entirely possible to get Straight A's without antagonizing your profs. 😱

 

[n3xa]

oh... you don't?

Doesn't apply to you then, I guess. TOOL ON!

 

[Negrodamus]

Why is everyone calling the OP a tool? With as many papers they grade, problems are bound to arise. I don't know about anyone else but every semester I hear that college is a full time job. If it is, I should get a full semesters pay for my work. I'll change if things are different in medical school, but I can't get their without getting the highest grade possible.

 

[music2doc]

Why is everyone calling the OP a tool? With as many papers they grade, problems are bound to arise. I don't know about anyone else but every semester I hear that college is a full time job. If it is, I should get a full semesters pay for my work. I'll change if things are different in medical school, but I can't get their without getting the highest grade possible.

The thing is...most of those mistakes make so little difference in the end. When it comes down to a 94% w/ a prof who loves you or a 98% w/ a prof you finds you incredibly annoying, wouldn't you pick the former?

 

[commodores12]

Has anyone else experienced this phenomena? You grow up and develop disciplined study habits - resulting in true mastery of whatever you're being taught.

Once you achieve topic mastery you realize that faculty are far from perfect:

• Lazy profs who spend more time doing research than reviewing undergraduate topics make mistakes in class, get things wrong (I don't correct them in class - no point in showing up the prof)

• Professors evaluate you unfairly for multiple reasons:
  • We had a professor start giving quizzes on material he taught the same day in class - I explained to him that this was unfair and unreasonable and he stopped doing it.
  • We had a professor give us lab tests that had nothing to do with the labs - they were just concepts he thought were important. There was thus no way to study for them. I wrote him a detailed letter explaining why this wasn't fair - and he responded by giving an extra credit assignment to make up for it.
  • I have had professors forget to give me points on exams - after pointing out their mistake they correct them.
  • I've had professors test on concepts they specifically said they would not - then I had to go to their office and argue for the points.
  • I've had professors ask questions that were so ambiguous as to be unanswerable - I was a philosophy undergrad so I know how to read, and to argue - so I point out the ambiguity to them and get points on questions I missed.

In almost all cases when I argue for points I win - I'm protecting my GPA.

However I am starting to worry that no matter how polite I am, I will develop a reputation for being a student who antagonizes faculty, who "shows them up" - and that politically, in the long run, it may be better to get a 3.8 than a 4.0 and take an un-fair A- or two along the way, if it means that I can be that happy guy who is buddy buddy with my faculty instead of the guy who doesn't let them get away with any **** or f*ck over their students.

Thoughts?

Typical person on SDN. I'm getting off this thing. I think some of the SDN crazy is rubbing off on me.

 

[Negrodamus]

The thing is...most of those mistakes make so little difference in the end. When it comes down to a 94% w/ a prof who loves you or a 98% w/ a prof you finds you incredibly annoying, wouldn't you pick the former?

It depends on how the grades are structured. I had one class (pre-calc) where there were three exams for the entire semester. I hounded her and the TA for every point I could get, because in that situation every point did matter. Now I wouldn't dare ask her for any kind of recommendation. That is the trade off I'm willing to accept now.

 

[music2doc]

It depends on how the grades are structured. I had one class (pre-calc) where there were three exams for the entire semester. I hounded her and the TA for every point I could get, because in that situation every point did matter. Now I wouldn't dare ask her for any kind of recommendation. That is the trade off I'm willing to accept now.

I suppose. I always had professors say, "I am [only] willing to do one complete regrade." In other words, you might LOSE extra points the second time around. So sure, you might get the points back but to be fair, you could end up with a lower grade as well.

 

[AestheticMed]

I dunno about this. IN high school everybody hated the kid who did this.

 

[StrongWork]

Typical person on SDN. I'm getting off this thing. I think some of the SDN crazy is rubbing off on me.

This is the reason I JOINED sdn after years of lurking. We need to balance it out! My years of underachievement should bring down the overall gunner-ness of this forum a tad 🙂

 

[milski]

It depends on how the grades are structured. I had one class (pre-calc) where there were three exams for the entire semester. I hounded her and the TA for every point I could get, because in that situation every point did matter. Now I wouldn't dare ask her for any kind of recommendation. That is the trade off I'm willing to accept now.

Or you could just learn the material, get a 100% on the test and move on. Much simpler for everyone involved, no?

 

[music2doc]

Or you could just learn the material, get a 100% on the test and move on. Much simpler for everyone involved, no?

I would tend to agree with this, but not everyone can get a 100% -- not everyone knows the material that well.


...Oh, wait.... What's the purpose of an exam again?


News to SDN: Not everyone is meant to get an "A." (Sorry.)