Strange ISB

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kmurp

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Did an ISB today for a scope. She had no ability to lift her arm on entry to the OR which I take a proxy for loss of sensation. That said when the surgeon raised her arm all the way passively, it hurt her. She reacted to incision (under propofol) so I I fed up having to put in an LMA unfortunately. What nerve could I have missed ?
 
Did an ISB today for a scope. She had no ability to lift her arm on entry to the OR which I take a proxy for loss of sensation. That said when the surgeon raised her arm all the way passively, it hurt her. She reacted to incision (under propofol) so I I fed up having to put in an LMA unfortunately. What nerve could I have missed ?

You were to low. Was her deltoid firing? If her delt was firing then you didn’t get the plexus at the ISB level.
 
You were to low. Was her deltoid firing? If her delt was firing then you didn’t get the plexus at the ISB level.

Agree with Pain Drain.. too low..

It happens..

You dont have to be true interscalene, but you cant be pure supraclav either and get success all the time.. learn the inbetween and where works and where is too low

I find that when all of the bundle is above the artery, Im good.
 
Where was the incision? My staff just went over this with me today stating that for some scopes on the posterior side of the shoulder, the suprascapular nerve can be missed by interscalene blocks.
 
Agree with above. Missed suprascapular nerve. You can see it go off and move posteriorly. Additional cause of shoulder and neck pain. Also, see it a lot with posterior pain after a shoulder scope and the posterior port is the cause of pain. You can selectively block it and cure their ills.
 
The other pearl is that some of the frozen shoulder patients that get an aggressive manipulation under anesthesia as part of the surgery will have pain in the axilla which obviously isn’t covered by an ISB. Maybe another indication for erector spinae plane block???
 
So I typically go for the “in between” block which is lower than the classic ISB and much higher than the supraclavicular block, the reasoning being to avoid phrenic block. I find that targeting the superior trunk will get shoulder sensory innervation 90% of the time. My approach is so reliable I don’t give anything else except for Midaz. In the remaining 10% I have found the pain is divided equally into posterior pain and axilla/vague chest wall pain. Those patients still rarely need meds to control this and most do fine with toradol and ice.


The one thing I have found that makes a HUGE difference and it’s something to consider is the amount of and pressure of the fluid being used for arthroscopy. One surgeon I work with uses higher pressures than the others and it’s typical for his patients to report this vague chest wall/pec/axilla pain and it’s all related to fluid in the surrounding soft tissues.

One last tip for those who use beach chair positioning and worry about cerebral perfusion. Give 25mg IM ephedrine right after induction and titrate gas accordingly to MAP. You will never have an issue with hypotension and you won’t have the ups and downs you see when chasing hypotension with pressor blouses.
 
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Agree with above. Missed suprascapular nerve. You can see it go off and move posteriorly. Additional cause of shoulder and neck pain. Also, see it a lot with posterior pain after a shoulder scope and the posterior port is the cause of pain. You can selectively block it and cure their ills.

How do you miss it if you go high enough? Since suprascapular comes off Brachial plexus trunk. If you do, doesn't that mean you were too low?
 
I probably did miss the suprascapular nerve I think. I was going to try my first selective suprascap block in PACU on her but she didn’t need it. I think her deltoid was out because she couldn’t lift her arm at all. Got the MC. Nerve on her as well. Volume was I think about 23ml. She did have a frozen shoulder and the intitial pain was with the surgeon lifting the arm. The next pain was posterior scope insertion. That’s when the LMA went in. I’ll have to start looking for the Suprascap nerve in the future.
Many of my ISB are likely a bit too low as I just go where I can see it best and figure the local will track up higher.
 
You guys are so sophisticated. I just find the stoplight and put a bunch of local all around it. They seem to get nice and numb every time.

I wish I could like this a million times.

Also, redo surgeries and repeat blocks and definitely lead to patchy/inconsistent blocks. Further, nothing works 100% of the time, not even Sex Panther perfume.
 
How timely. I did one today for a friend going back for ulnar nerve transposition. Performed a low interscalene/supraclavicular. Caught C8 "corner pocket". He had burning in his elbow afterwards. Block seemed to be working but I touched it up. Whole upper extremity immobile and all of forearm/fingers/arm numb except for elbow burning that still didn't get covered. Pain was 2-3/10.So I gave some gabapentin and toradol and apologized for not getting 100%. Any thoughts on where I went wrong or what I could have done better?
 
Neuropathic pain from the block? Possibly related to his ulnar nerve problem?
 
How timely. I did one today for a friend going back for ulnar nerve transposition. Performed a low interscalene/supraclavicular. Caught C8 "corner pocket". He had burning in his elbow afterwards. Block seemed to be working but I touched it up. Whole upper extremity immobile and all of forearm/fingers/arm numb except for elbow burning that still didn't get covered. Pain was 2-3/10.So I gave some gabapentin and toradol and apologized for not getting 100%. Any thoughts on where I went wrong or what I could have done better?

you probably got it and it was just him being odd. i find elbow hard to miss especially if you cover upper arm and hand.. you probably got inbetween too
 
Neuropathic pain from the block? Possibly related to his ulnar nerve problem?
I agree with the type of pain. Neuropathic in nature. Hence, the gabapentin. But if you block the transmission via the brachial plexus, the signal should not be reaching the brain (assuming the block was working). That would be like doing a spinal for femur fracture and expecting them to still hurt. Maybe I misunderstood your comment.
 
I think it’s a bad idea to block ulnar nerve transpo’s
Fair point. I try to comfort myself with the hopes that nerve conduction studies/EMG would prove where the lesion was. I usually only block postoperatively in patients with severe pain (that were consented preoperatively). Hopefully, I am not the only one 🤔

It is a wide spectrum of risk to take with a block. I have known people to block tibial plateau fractures. I know others that won't block diabetics because of possible undiagnosed neuropathy.
 
Did an ISB today for a scope. She had no ability to lift her arm on entry to the OR which I take a proxy for loss of sensation. That said when the surgeon raised her arm all the way passively, it hurt her. She reacted to incision (under propofol) so I I fed up having to put in an LMA unfortunately. What nerve could I have missed ?

I'll give some anecdotal cases that I have seen over the decades:

1. Supraclavicular block did not provide adequate analgesia or motor block (N=4) for shoulder surgery

2. Interscalene block provided analgesia but no motor block with 0.5% Ropivacaine (N=1)

3. Failed Interscalene blocks during the nerve stimulator era (likely due to blocking the suprascapular nerve or low ISB without adequate spread).

In your situation, did you check on the patient in PACU? I have seen a few cases of pain due to
the cervical plexus.

https://www.nysora.com/interscalene...k-and-light-sedation-for-shoulder-arthroscopy
 
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It's easy to "miss" something when doing a block for shoulder surgery. These days many of us, myself included, will settle for a less than a perfect "stoplight sign" and do a high, modified, supraclavicular block. That said, I believe an ISB (classic C5-C6 location with local) is the BEST spot for shoulder surgery:

The shoulder area is innervated by nerves of both cervical and brachial plexuses.

The shoulder joint is supplied by the anterior primary divisions of cervical nerve roots C5-C6 (with a small contribution of C7), while the cutaneous innervation of the shoulder is predominantly derived from C4-C3 (superficial cervical plexus). An interscalene block will consistentely block C4 and C3 as well as C5, C6, and C7. Cervical nerve roots C8 and T1 are blocked approximately 40 to 60 % of patients. The commonly used superior and deltopectoral surgical approaches are within the dermatomes anesthetized by an ISB. The lower anterior aspect of the shoulder, and the dorsal aspect as well, are innervated by thoracic nerve roots T2 and T3. These areas can be blocked combining an ISB with a subcutaneous infiltration of local anesthetic to cover a larger surgical incision (3). The acromioclavicular joint is largely supplied by the suprascapular nerve, which also provides some innervations to the capsule and glenohumeral joint. The inferior aspect of the capsule and glenohumeral joint are supplied by the axillary nerve, with a small variable contribution from the muscolocutaneous and subscapular nerves. To summarize, it is mandatory to block supraclavicular, suprascapular and axillary nerves for the arthroscopic surgery. For open shoulder surgery, knowledge of the surgical approach is useful because the surgical incision may also involve other territories (10).

The interscalene approach to the brachial plexus is best suited to surgery of the shoulder where a block of the lower cervical plexus is also desirable.

Anesthesiological Considerations in Shoulder Surgery
 
We usually do ISBs for scopes for rotator cuffs then MAC. Usually 0.5% bupi or ropi. Surgeon doesn't do local in the posterior port. They never budge when the port is placed. I'm a dummy. Does the not moving make sense?
 
I agree with the type of pain. Neuropathic in nature. Hence, the gabapentin. But if you block the transmission via the brachial plexus, the signal should not be reaching the brain (assuming the block was working). That would be like doing a spinal for femur fracture and expecting them to still hurt. Maybe I misunderstood your comment.
That's a very good point. My guess was that some fibers of the plexus that end up in the ulnar nerve may also be involved (if it's truly neuropathic pain it would make sense for the pathology to extend towards its root) and did not respond properly to the local anesthetic. But I am not a pain expert.
 
I'll give some anecdotal cases that I have seen over the decades:

1. Supraclavicular block did not provide adequate analgesia or motor block (N=4) for shoulder surgery

2. Interscalene block provided analgesia but no motor block with 0.5% Ropivacaine (N=1)

3. Failed Interscalene blocks during the nerve stimulator era (likely due to blocking the suprascapular nerve or low ISB without adequate spread).

In your situation, did you check on the patient in PACU? I have seen a few cases of pain due to
the cervical plexus.

https://www.nysora.com/interscalene...k-and-light-sedation-for-shoulder-arthroscopy
I have had many that have proximal pain that gets better with superficial cervical plexus block. Unfortunately, there is cross innervation so you can still have pain unless you block the contralateral side or get the nerves as they cross the midline.
 
It's easy to "miss" something when doing a block for shoulder surgery. These days many of us, myself included, will settle for a less than a perfect "stoplight sign" and do a high, modified, supraclavicular block. That said, I believe an ISB (classic C5-C6 location with local) is the BEST spot for shoulder surgery:

The shoulder area is innervated by nerves of both cervical and brachial plexuses.

The shoulder joint is supplied by the anterior primary divisions of cervical nerve roots C5-C6 (with a small contribution of C7), while the cutaneous innervation of the shoulder is predominantly derived from C4-C3 (superficial cervical plexus). An interscalene block will consistentely block C4 and C3 as well as C5, C6, and C7. Cervical nerve roots C8 and T1 are blocked approximately 40 to 60 % of patients. The commonly used superior and deltopectoral surgical approaches are within the dermatomes anesthetized by an ISB. The lower anterior aspect of the shoulder, and the dorsal aspect as well, are innervated by thoracic nerve roots T2 and T3. These areas can be blocked combining an ISB with a subcutaneous infiltration of local anesthetic to cover a larger surgical incision (3). The acromioclavicular joint is largely supplied by the suprascapular nerve, which also provides some innervations to the capsule and glenohumeral joint. The inferior aspect of the capsule and glenohumeral joint are supplied by the axillary nerve, with a small variable contribution from the muscolocutaneous and subscapular nerves. To summarize, it is mandatory to block supraclavicular, suprascapular and axillary nerves for the arthroscopic surgery. For open shoulder surgery, knowledge of the surgical approach is useful because the surgical incision may also involve other territories (10).

The interscalene approach to the brachial plexus is best suited to surgery of the shoulder where a block of the lower cervical plexus is also desirable.

Anesthesiological Considerations in Shoulder Surgery
From a recent article in RAPM: Regional Anesthesia and Pain Medicine: January/February 2017 - Volume 42 - Issue 1 - p 32–38

Cutaneous innervation of the “cape region” overlying the shoulder joint is separate from the brachial plexus and mediated by the supraclavicular nerves (which originate from the superficial cervical plexus). Therefore, for shouldersurgery to be carried out solely with peripheral nerve blocks, brachial plexus blocks must be combined with superficial (or intermediate) cervical plexus blocks in order to provide coverage for skin incision and closure.


I haven’t found it necessary to routinely block the cervical plexus in doing these with ISB and sedation. How about you?
 
From a recent article in RAPM: Regional Anesthesia and Pain Medicine: January/February 2017 - Volume 42 - Issue 1 - p 32–38

Cutaneous innervation of the “cape region” overlying the shoulder joint is separate from the brachial plexus and mediated by the supraclavicular nerves (which originate from the superficial cervical plexus). Therefore, for shouldersurgery to be carried out solely with peripheral nerve blocks, brachial plexus blocks must be combined with superficial (or intermediate) cervical plexus blocks in order to provide coverage for skin incision and closure.


I haven’t found it necessary to routinely block the cervical plexus in doing these with ISB and sedation. How about you?

shoulder for me is ISB, LMA, no narcotics, propofol and sevo mixture in beachchair... even if it was lateral, why not just throw an LMA in? i never understood sedation for a shoulder but i do understand its quite popular.. anyways with a solid ISB there is NO pain upon awakening, every time.. dont give fentanyl when there is tugging or stimulation, there is NO pain at the end... in reality i give 50-100 just as an adjunct to GA but never more than 100 or then something is wrong with my block...
 
shoulder for me is ISB, LMA, no narcotics, propofol and sevo mixture in beachchair... even if it was lateral, why not just throw an LMA in? i never understood sedation for a shoulder but i do understand its quite popular.. anyways with a solid ISB there is NO pain upon awakening, every time.. dont give fentanyl when there is tugging or stimulation, there is NO pain at the end... in reality i give 50-100 just as an adjunct to GA but never more than 100 or then something is wrong with my block...
Agreed. Never saw the harm in the LMA and if it was me, I'd much rather get an lMA than not.
 
I had a shoulder scope with just ISB, no sedation. My partner that did the block didn't do any specific cervical plexus block, and I still had great coverage. The surgeon did have to inject a little extra at the posterior port site, as it was only partially covered, though. Overall, great experience. A little decadron and precedex lead to a long block with a slow, gradual fade.

For the right patient, I would do ISB (without specific cervical plexus block) with light to moderate sedation, but most didn't take me up on the offer, and got an LMA with no additional opiates. For the sedation patients, they seemed to have just fine coverage of the cape area.
 
From a recent article in RAPM: Regional Anesthesia and Pain Medicine: January/February 2017 - Volume 42 - Issue 1 - p 32–38

Cutaneous innervation of the “cape region” overlying the shoulder joint is separate from the brachial plexus and mediated by the supraclavicular nerves (which originate from the superficial cervical plexus). Therefore, for shouldersurgery to be carried out solely with peripheral nerve blocks, brachial plexus blocks must be combined with superficial (or intermediate) cervical plexus blocks in order to provide coverage for skin incision and closure.


I haven’t found it necessary to routinely block the cervical plexus in doing these with ISB and sedation. How about you?

"Skin and Closure." That means add a little local over the skin where the posterior port was placed or local over the incision. This avoids the need for a Superficial Cervical Plexus Block entirely. Hence, I do an ISB for shoulder surgery and ask the surgeon to inject 5-10 mls of local for skin incision or posterior port. This results in excellent analgesia 99% of the time.
 
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