Student loans

[CircadianRhythm]

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We all know DO school is expensive but I'm trying to figure out if the cost is worth it to my specific situation. I am college in maryland and due to family I am unwilling to go to school/residency more than 3-4 hours away. My parents are older and I want to be able to see them semi regularly in their last years. I'm not competitive for my state MD schools and would only apply DO after lots of retakes which Im currently taking.

I know the match is competitive so I figured I'd gun for a local primary care residency to ensure I'd be close to home. But after reading that a lot of PCPs make $150k a year before taxes and with my conservative estimate of 400k in student loans I wanted to throw up!

Here's my math:
Undergrad loans- approx 30k at completion
DO school- approx 45k/year for tuition and 25k/year living expenses X4
Interest accumulating on all of that brings me roughly to 400k

I plugged 150k into a salary calculator for my state. I took out 10% ($15,000) first as retirement savings. That IMO is a necessity especially for the young attending who could not contribute to their retirement for the last 11 years.

That ends up being around $7500 a month after retirement and taxes are taken out. Now take out student loans which on a 10 year payment plan for a 400k bill is roughly $4,000 a month.

That leaves me with a monthly salary of $3500 a month. I know that isn't the poorhouse but that seems like painfully low compensation and not the most comfortable lifestyle.

Am I missing something here? Is my math off somehow? Is DO only financially viable if one is willing to apply broadly to higher paying specialties?

I'm not trying to whine, I know these insane student loans are a burden for every medical student in a DO school today and I don't think I'm special. Im just trying to make informed decisions and not be blind sided when its too late.

 

[koan]

Your math isn't way off, but you're taking a very high loan burden against a low salary and applying the highest level of repayment. And you still come out ok. Most people use IBR, some people choose their specialty for financial reasons, others live like a resident and pay down their debt. There have been countless threads about this, some very recently.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

We all know DO school is expensive but I'm trying to figure out if the cost is worth it to my specific situation. I am college in maryland and due to family I am unwilling to go to school/residency more than 3-4 hours away. My parents are older and I want to be able to see them semi regularly in their last years. I'm not competitive for my state MD schools and would only apply DO after lots of retakes which Im currently taking.

I know the match is competitive so I figured I'd gun for a local primary care residency to ensure I'd be close to home. But after reading that a lot of PCPs make $150k a year before taxes and with my conservative estimate of 400k in student loans I wanted to throw up!

Here's my math:
Undergrad loans- approx 30k at completion
DO school- approx 45k/year for tuition and 25k/year living expenses X4
Interest accumulating on all of that brings me roughly to 400k

I plugged 150k into a salary calculator for my state. I took out 10% ($15,000) first as retirement savings. That IMO is a necessity especially for the young attending who could not contribute to their retirement for the last 11 years.

That ends up being around $7500 a month after retirement and taxes are taken out. Now take out student loans which on a 10 year payment plan for a 400k bill is roughly $4,000 a month.

That leaves me with a monthly salary of $3500 a month. I know that isn't the poorhouse but that seems like painfully low compensation and not the most comfortable lifestyle.

Am I missing something here? Is my math off somehow? Is DO only financially viable if one is willing to apply broadly to higher paying specialties?

I'm not trying to whine, I know these insane student loans are a burden for every medical student in a DO school today and I don't think I'm special. Im just trying to make informed decisions and not be blind sided when its too late.

This is why people who go into medicine for the money are fools.

Also a ten year payment program is a bit quick and 15 thousand a year seems a bit much if you are doing a ten year payment program.

 

[pericardium]

Honestly, that sounds about right. Good thing you're being realistic.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

For myself I paid zero for undergrad. If I went to Lecom I would have about 180K debt I think. I have 120k saved up so that leaves me with 60K in debt . Paying that back isn't so bad. Thats why its key not to go in debt in undergrad.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Honestly, that sounds about right. Good thing you're being realistic.

He took it a little far. Not terrible but a little far.

 

[CircadianRhythm]

I'm familiar with IBR and while that's what I would do if I were a graduating resident now there is no guarantee that it will be available by the time I am ready to take advantage of it. I'm a pretty risk adverse person so I didnt want to include a program that may have vanished by the time I'm a DO.

I thought a 10 year repayment plan was pretty standard? Also I would disagree that anything less than 10% for retirement is cutting it close. Physicians that dont come from wealth families are disadvantaged in that they are unable to make real contributions to their retirement for a lot longer than most. Check out the EM forum, a lot of them feel that 20% attending salary is necessary. I think personally think thats too much but that's just me.

 

[nontrad78]

There are also lots of loan forgiveness programs out there. One in particular forgives the remainder of your loans if you make 10 years worth of payment while working "public service". This includes working for non-profits, like almost all hospitals. Your payments can be IBR or if you qualify, maybe even lower. One of the benefits of this program appears to be that the IBR payments are based on your income for the previous year. Since as an OMS IV you won't be making any money, your payment would be $0 as an intern. This year of payments would count, as would all of the years that you are in residency, working at a hospital. Furthermore, your first year practicing after residency, your payments would be based on your salary as a resident.

This means that by the time you become a practicing physician, you will only have 5 or so years of IBR payments to go. You'd only be limited in that you'd have to continue to work in this capacity at a non-profit or other qualifying public service facility.

If anyone sees inaccuracies in what I've said, by all means, let md know, but from what I understand, you can come out with a great deal of your debt completely wiped away.

 

[CircadianRhythm]

For myself I paid zero for undergrad. If I went to Lecom I would have about 180K debt I think. I have 120k saved up so that leaves me with 60K in debt . Paying that back isn't so bad. Thats why its key not to go in debt in undergrad.

LECOM is 30k a year in tuition so thats 120k plus 100k for four years of living expenses which gives the average student 220k approximately. I commend your ability to save 100k and graduate debt free but I am an EMT and could not generate that kind of money.

 

[radkat101]

If it were me in your situation, no way I would do that. Why not just go to the nearest PA school? You'll make about the same money with way less debt and be done sooner. Primary care is being taken over by them anyway which makes your situation that much worse.

 

[nontrad78]

Sorry, just seeing your post. Good point. I have to imagine there will still be some form of this though. I think there has been some iteration of this type of setup for decades.

 

[CircadianRhythm]

There are also lots of loan forgiveness programs out there. One in particular forgives the remainder of your loans if you make 10 years worth of payment while working "public service". This includes working for non-profits, like almost all hospitals. Your payments can be IBR or if you qualify, maybe even lower. One of the benefits of this program appears to be that the IBR payments are based on your income for the previous year. Since as an OMS IV you won't be making any money, your payment would be $0 as an intern. This year of payments would count, as would all of the years that you are in residency, working at a hospital. Furthermore, your first year practicing after residency, your payments would be based on your salary as a resident.

This means that by the time you become a practicing physician, you will only have 5 or so years of IBR payments to go. You'd only be limited in that you'd have to continue to work in this capacity at a non-profit or other qualifying public service facility.

If anyone sees inaccuracies in what I've said, by all means, let md know, but from what I understand, you can come out with a great deal of your debt completely wiped away.

This is reassuring, thank you

 

[CircadianRhythm]

If it were me in your situation, no way I would do that. Why not just go to the nearest PA school? You'll make about the same money with way less debt and be done sooner. Primary care is being taken over by them anyway which makes your situation that much worse.

I think about this everyday. After I broke down the numbers to my mother who is an Internist she implored that I consider PA over DO. It's just I always wanted to be a doc so it's not easy to switch gears.

 

[nontrad78]

This is reassuring, thank you

Of course. I'm 36, married, with a kid. I'm hoping to start medical school in 2015. If I do, it will almost certainly be at a DO school, in another state. My family of 3 will be going into a substantial amount of debt. I still cannot imagine a more stable, dependable, flexible, very high paying, but most of all rewarding profession. If you can get in and through medical school, you can write your own ticket. Forever.

This may be a bit too much, but I'd be willing to bet any doctor who says it's not financially worth it has never worked a job paying less than $30k since college. (Though your mother is certainly more knowledgable than I. This was not in reference to her.)

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

LECOM is 30k a year in tuition so thats 120k plus 100k for four years of living expenses which gives the average student 220k approximately. I commend your ability to save 100k and graduate debt free but I am an EMT and could not generate that kind of money.

I can live on less then 100 k for four years. Cheap apartment in lake erie would most likely be 30kish. So I think 180k is accurate.

You're an EMT who can eventually make up 100k? I doubt it.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I think about this everyday. After I broke down the numbers to my mother who is an Internist she implored that I consider PA over DO. It's just I always wanted to be a doc so it's not easy to switch gears.

Don't do PA over DO in a money sense. Do what you actually want to do.

 

[radkat101]

I think about this everyday. After I broke down the numbers to my mother who is an Internist she implored that I consider PA over DO. It's just I always wanted to be a doc so it's not easy to switch gears.

I get that. Maybe shadow a PA to see if you could do it. It really is a pretty good gig and you will feel, and be treated like a doctor most of the time anyway. It will also be more flexible and make it much easier to stay local, as I'm assuming your local DO school will be sending you away for a good part of years 3 and 4 for rotations (could be wrong here). Also keep in mind that the getting into medical school, "omg, I'm gonna be a doctor!" phase will begin to subside soon after you get in and you could EASILY find yourself in a situation where you wish you'd taken another route.

 

[CircadianRhythm]

I can live on less then 100 k for four years. Cheap apartment in lake erie would most likely be 30kish. So I think 180k is accurate.

You're an EMT who can eventually make up 100k? I doubt it.

An EMT could not make 100k. A paramedic on a fire department with a BA in administration could promote through the EMS officer ranks and could get close if not reach a six figure salary. Besides the point as this does not interest me at all.

 

[CircadianRhythm]

I get that. Maybe shadow a PA to see if you could do it. It really is a pretty good gig and you will feel, and be treated like a doctor most of the time anyway. It will also be more flexible and make it much easier to stay local, as I'm assuming your local DO school will be sending you away for a good part of years 3 and 4 for rotations (could be wrong here). Also keep in mind that the getting into medical school, "omg, I'm gonna be a doctor!" phase will begin to subside soon after you get in and you could EASILY find yourself in a situation where you wish you'd taken another route.

I am going to research this route more. I have heard of experienced PA's/one's who've attended year long residencies enjoy a healthy scope of practice especially in rural areas which is where I want to live anyway. And paying 30k for the whole program isn't too bad at all. I'll have to do some soul searching on that one.

 

[radkat101]

Don't do PA over DO in a money sense. Do what you actually want to do.

This is easy to say when you aren't 400k in debt doing the exact same job, and being treated the exact same way as someone making the same amount of money as you, who didn't to deal with nearly the same amount of BS to get there. I'm not saying they should do it, but I'm saying they should at least have an idea of what BOTH fields are like before they take the plunge.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

This is easy to say when you aren't 400k in debt doing the exact same job, and being treated the exact same way as someone making the same amount of money as you, who didn't to deal with nearly the same amount of BS to get there. I'm not saying they should do it, but I'm saying they should at least have an idea of what BOTH fields are like before they take the plunge.

PA and DO isn't the same job. If you wanna be a PA do PA. IF you wanna be a DO do DO. Don't let money decide is my point.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

An EMT could not make 100k. A paramedic on a fire department with a BA in administration could promote through the EMS officer ranks and could get close if not reach a six figure salary. Besides the point as this does not interest me at all.

ohh you are saying a year. I figured you were saying eventually. What does it matter what you make as an EMT though? You will be repaying as a physician.

 

[radkat101]

I am going to research this route more. I have heard of experienced PA's/one's who've attended year long residencies enjoy a healthy scope of practice especially in rural areas which is where I want to live anyway. And paying 30k for the whole program isn't too bad at all. I'll have to do some soul searching on that one.

One last bit of advice would be to spend some time searching the physician/resident forums here, as there are plenty of "would you do it all over again" types of discussions that will give you insight that pre-meds and I can't provide.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

We all know DO school is expensive but I'm trying to figure out if the cost is worth it to my specific situation. I am college in maryland and due to family I am unwilling to go to school/residency more than 3-4 hours away. My parents are older and I want to be able to see them semi regularly in their last years. I'm not competitive for my state MD schools and would only apply DO after lots of retakes which Im currently taking.

I know the match is competitive so I figured I'd gun for a local primary care residency to ensure I'd be close to home. But after reading that a lot of PCPs make $150k a year before taxes and with my conservative estimate of 400k in student loans I wanted to throw up!

Here's my math:
Undergrad loans- approx 30k at completion
DO school- approx 45k/year for tuition and 25k/year living expenses X4
Interest accumulating on all of that brings me roughly to 400k

I plugged 150k into a salary calculator for my state. I took out 10% ($15,000) first as retirement savings. That IMO is a necessity especially for the young attending who could not contribute to their retirement for the last 11 years.

That ends up being around $7500 a month after retirement and taxes are taken out. Now take out student loans which on a 10 year payment plan for a 400k bill is roughly $4,000 a month.

That leaves me with a monthly salary of $3500 a month. I know that isn't the poorhouse but that seems like painfully low compensation and not the most comfortable lifestyle.

Am I missing something here? Is my math off somehow? Is DO only financially viable if one is willing to apply broadly to higher paying specialties?

I'm not trying to whine, I know these insane student loans are a burden for every medical student in a DO school today and I don't think I'm special. Im just trying to make informed decisions and not be blind sided when its too late.

If you are making 150k in 2021(about 125k in 2014 money), then it's either you are working part-time or physician's compensations have undergone a 30% cut.

A more reasonable number in my opinion, in primary care, would be 220k (about 180k in today's money).

 

[cliquesh]

Has anyone successfully used a loan forgiveness program or are they so new that no one qualifies for the program? I don't know much about it.

 

[user3]

Has anyone successfully used a loan forgiveness program or are they so new that no one qualifies for the program? I don't know much about it.

We will see the first wave of PSLF forgiveness in 2017.

 

[Beargryllz]

LECOM is 30k a year in tuition so thats 120k plus 100k for four years of living expenses which gives the average student 220k approximately. I commend your ability to save 100k and graduate debt free but I am an EMT and could not generate that kind of money.

LECOM is 30k tuition and another 10k in various "fees"

The COA is actually 60k

 

[WastedTime]

There are ways to earn $300k in FM if u work enough and are willing to travel

 

[cliquesh]

There are ways to earn $300k in FM if u work enough and are willing to travel

That sounds like fun.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

LECOM is 30k tuition and another 10k in various "fees"

The COA is actually 60k

I have seen med schools overestimate cost it seem IMO. Those fees are probably lab/books/travel/food/ they probably include 20 k for room too.

 

[WastedTime]

That sounds like fun.

not about having fun buddy its about being debt free

 

[cliquesh]

not about having fun buddy its about being debt free

How about enjoying your life? Is it worth being a doctor if you're going to be a slave to your debt? I don't think so.

 

[WastedTime]

How about enjoying your life? Is it worth being a doctor if you're going to be a slave to your debt? I don't think so.

thats y i recommend working hard and making $300k to pay off ur debt as quickly as possible then do whatever u want, being a doctor doesn't entitle u to anything

 

[baxt1412]

Or just become a physician and don't live like one for a few years... you're already used to living as a resident at ~50k/year, so if you end up making 150k per year (aiming really low here for a reason) you could pay off 200k of debt in 3 years. then you have 100k a year to spend on anything you want. you could buy a house IN CASH in 1 year.

most americans live way outside of their means... there is no reason you need to buy a 400k house, especially when you have massive amounts of debt. live like a pauper for a few years and then retire a king after you start investing 20k+ per year in a retirement account for 30 years (should bring Trad applicants to around retirement age) and you could live off of the interest without ever touching the principle.

long story short - most people waste way too much money. don't take out a ton of extra loans as a med student and as a physician, in general you should be able to pay off your debt relatively quickly as long as you prioritize it.


spend some time with this calculator and you will see just how powerful money can be if you aren't tied down with a ton of debt. (a modest interest rate to pick would be 8%)
http://www.daveramsey.com/article/investing-calculator/lifeandmoney_investing/#/entry_form

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I was born and raised in MD and went to school there. My wife and could easily live off of 2500-3000 a month. We currently live off 2200. And thats for TWO people (two cell phone plans, two insurance bills, 2 mouths to feed, 2 sets of student loans, etc.). I think the trick is... and lots of people have said it before. You have to live like a resident for your first few years as an attending.

You live poorly for the first few years, demolish that debt, and then you will be good to go. Going into medicine for the paycheck is certainly not worth it. But going in and having a pretty good sense that you will have a reasonably stable paycheck for much of your adult life is more accurate. If you finish residency and go buy a corvette and a house then things will not work out for you. But if you stay in the same apartment/house (or similar cost) when you finish residency then you will make it. The farther from residency that you make it, the more valuable your investment will be (as debt disappears and you are able to pocket the cash).

Talking to attendings (DOs from CCOM - a notoriously expensive school) who are relatively fresh out of residency, they say that type of lifestyle is the way to go. There is light at the end of the tunnel. They claim that all said and done, its still a good investment and they would do it again.

 

[baxt1412]

This is why I am happy I have stumbled upon Dave Ramsey and his teachings during undergrad. If you guys are looking for a great financial guy w/ some very plausible philosophies/plans to follow... I would highly suggest Dave. There is even an unofficial support group on facebook that is fantastic.

 

[Beargryllz]

I have seen med schools overestimate cost it seem IMO. Those fees are probably lab/books/travel/food/ they probably include 20 k for room too.

I'm pretty sure my school has an exaggerated CoA to accommodate a generous, lavish lifestyle while in school. I found it preposterous but we'll see where I am in a year, financial wise. For example, I don't think either of my roomates has ever cooked and this seems to be the norm for a lot of my class: paying someone else to cook 3 meals/day, every day. That is one of many ways to waste student loan money IMO.

 

[baxt1412]

I'm pretty sure my school has an exaggerated CoA to accommodate a generous, lavish lifestyle while in school. I found it preposterous but we'll see where I am in a year, financial wise. For example, I don't think either of my roomates has ever cooked and this seems to be the norm for a lot of my class: paying someone else to cook 3 meals/day, every day. That is one of many ways to waste student loan money IMO.

not to mention, generally eat unhealthily which can lead to being sick or other health issues which cost money/time down the road as well. luckily for me, i don't mind eating the same thing all week. i usually just pick a starch protein and vegetable and prepare enough of each for 2 meals (i do lunch and dinner) for 3-5 days at a time then switch it up. i always do cereal and yogurt for breakfast, so not really any prep there.

 

[user3]

I was born and raised in MD and went to school there. My wife and could easily live off of 2500-3000 a month. We currently live off 2200. And thats for TWO people (two cell phone plans, two insurance bills, 2 mouths to feed, 2 sets of student loans, etc.). I think the trick is... and lots of people have said it before. You have to live like a resident for your first few years as an attending.

You live poorly for the first few years, demolish that debt, and then you will be good to go. Going into medicine for the paycheck is certainly not worth it. But going in and having a pretty good sense that you will have a reasonably stable paycheck for much of your adult life is more accurate. If you finish residency and go buy a corvette and a house then things will not work out for you. But if you stay in the same apartment/house (or similar cost) when you finish residency then you will make it. The farther from residency that you make it, the more valuable your investment will be (as debt disappears and you are able to pocket the cash).

Talking to attendings (DOs from CCOM - a notoriously expensive school) who are relatively fresh out of residency, they say that type of lifestyle is the way to go. There is light at the end of the tunnel. They claim that all said and done, its still a good investment and they would do it again.

you have to keep in mind, however, that federal student loans are NOT normal types of loans, per se. The use of PAYE is a hot button issue here, but the bottom line is if you come out of residency with $350K of debt, lets say, and pay it all off in 3-5 years, how will you feel when your peers make the minimum payments for 20 years and subsequently receive the forgiveness?

There is debate on whether we should depend on PAYE, but I would feel like a sucker if I paid the loan off early only to find out I could have saved a ton completing PAYE and receiving the forgiveness. PAYE is a part of the loan contract (MPN).

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

This whole thread reminds me of the lyrics:

You make a good salary just to pay sally may.

 

[ForensicOdontology]

There is always the military route 😉

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Also, try to live in 1 of the 9 states with no individual, non-investment income tax. If you incorporate, you're down to 7 states.

 

[yanks26dmb]

Isn't going overseas to work in dubai, etc always an option? Good salaries, house/everything else paid for, tax free...


Do that a few years and you'll have put a serious dent in your debt.

 

[NYCNative]

Isn't going overseas to work in dubai, etc always an option? Good salaries, house/everything else paid for, tax free...


Do that a few years and you'll have put a serious dent in your debt.

No, the pay doesn't rise above $150,000, and you wind up spending alot because things from home are so expensive. Salaries are low because $150,000 is great for European doctors who don't make that much (but have no debt from school, either).

 

[yanks26dmb]

No, the pay doesn't rise above $150,000, and you wind up spending alot because things from home are so expensive. Salaries are low because $150,000 is great for European doctors who don't make that much (but have no debt from school, either).

Pretty sure the salaries are different for american vs. european doctors over there. I've also seen 175/hr for American trained EM physicians in Abu Dhabi.

I suppose you may end up spending a lot if you constantly need things from back home, but for all intents and purposes these are world class cities with nearly everything you'd need available...why would you be importing expensive goods from back home?

 

[NYCNative]

Pretty sure the salaries are different for american vs. european doctors over there. I've also seen 175/hr for American trained EM physicians in Abu Dhabi.

I suppose you may end up spending a lot if you constantly need things from back home, but for all intents and purposes these are world class cities with nearly everything you'd need available...why would you be importing expensive goods from back home?

It's not that you are shipping things, it's that any American or European product is twice the price of what it would be back home. So unless you eat exclusively in the markets and buy only local produce and items, you'll be spending a ton of money on eating out. Also, apartments with internet and functional toilets cost an arm and a leg in Dubai -- unless you want to sweat it out in a dungheap, there goes a lot more of your income. I hadn't actually seen an advert for 175/hr -- that does sound pretty good, esp. with no taxes being paid, and especially if housing is provided. I'd typically seen the salaries circulating 150 for internists when I looked into this a few years ago.

 

[Tirian]

If it really worries you, pick up a shift somewhere once a month, which should add around 1-2K to your monthly total. You can hustle a little bit (nothing crazy, mind) and make much more than the "average" if you're willing to work.

Want to hear frightening math?

I left a teaching career at age 40 to go to med school. Including loss of income, with full tuition/cost of living loans, figuring $150K income after residency, I would break even at around age 54 - somewhere between years 3 and 5 as an attending. Every year after that would be around triple my teaching salary.

There wasn't a scenario where this midlife career change wasn't a financially responsible idea.

And if I want to teach, there will be innumerable preceptor opportunities that will let me mold young minds to my heart's content - if not an actual teaching position at a school.

 

[hallowmann]

LECOM is 30k a year in tuition so thats 120k plus 100k for four years of living expenses which gives the average student 220k approximately. I commend your ability to save 100k and graduate debt free but I am an EMT and could not generate that kind of money.

You're overestimating a bit. Many people here will likely come out with ~$200k debt. Tuition and fees comes out to closer to ~$35k/yr, and you can easily live off of ~$15k/yr (especially if you are single or only married - no kids) in Erie, or even Greensburg.

I think about this everyday. After I broke down the numbers to my mother who is an Internist she implored that I consider PA over DO. It's just I always wanted to be a doc so it's not easy to switch gears.

You're pay scale is flawed a bit though. While many physicians make ~$150k just out of residency, with each year of experience out of training your value increases significantly. If you are board certified and don't mind where you go within reason, you can get ~$200k with 5 yrs experience as an FM doc. Also, I would say 10 yrs for a physician is atypical. Virtually all the docs I have seen have payment plans starting at least with 15 yrs (some at 25 or more), and they usually have even smaller principles than we will have when we graduate.

I can live on less then 100 k for four years. Cheap apartment in lake erie would most likely be 30kish. So I think 180k is accurate.

You're an EMT who can eventually make up 100k? I doubt it.

You might be able to pull off $180k, but it will be tough. Tuition and fees will be at least $140k, so $45k for 4 years will be tight. Like I say above $200k is very doable.

If you are making 150k in 2021(about 125k in 2014 money), then it's either you are working part-time or physician's compensations have undergone a 30% cut.

A more reasonable number in my opinion, in primary care, would be 220k (about 180k in today's money).

I concur.

LECOM is 30k tuition and another 10k in various "fees"

The COA is actually 60k

Current COA is between $55k and $63k depending on the year. Third year is most expensive mainly because of boards.

COA is inflated. People I know with kids and non-working spouses rarely take out the entire COA. Other fees are usually closer ~$5k/yr, maybe as high as ~$7k if you average across all 4 years, becuse MS3 is expensive.

Pretty sure the salaries are different for american vs. european doctors over there. I've also seen 175/hr for American trained EM physicians in Abu Dhabi.

I suppose you may end up spending a lot if you constantly need things from back home, but for all intents and purposes these are world class cities with nearly everything you'd need available...why would you be importing expensive goods from back home?

It's not that you are shipping things, it's that any American or European product is twice the price of what it would be back home. So unless you eat exclusively in the markets and buy only local produce and items, you'll be spending a ton of money on eating out. Also, apartments with internet and functional toilets cost an arm and a leg in Dubai -- unless you want to sweat it out in a dungheap, there goes a lot more of your income. I hadn't actually seen an advert for 175/hr -- that does sound pretty good, esp. with no taxes being paid, and especially if housing is provided. I'd typically seen the salaries circulating 150 for internists when I looked into this a few years ago.

Your deal out there better include housing (and at least some travel back and forth from the US - most offer for 2 round trips a year). If it doesn't, its probably not worth it, unless you have family there or some other reason to be there. You'd find a job that's just as good here without the hassle.

You can get by just fine on the food and products there. There's no need to spend the extra $$ getting American imports. That stuff is marked up for the wealthy locals who think that if its an "American" product it must be better, even when its made in the same factory in China as their imports.

 

[adriano710]

This is why people who go into medicine for the money are fools.

Also a ten year payment program is a bit quick and 15 thousand a year seems a bit much if you are doing a ten year payment program.

Going into medicine for money is not foolish

 

[adriano710]

Specialize my friend