PhD/PsyD Student Sues Walden University

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For-profit schools definitely look predatory and have been fined in the past for such behavior. It doesn't help that these businesses are allowed such leeway in how they conduct the business of selling online training. They spend aggressively to garner support from the gov't and politicians, which any smart business does. Unfortunately there is also a severe lack of accountability when it comes to students and for-profit institutions, so that clouds the waters.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Its almost like the "my situation is unique. I can't move, can't stop working, but I want the same privileges of someone who made those sacrifices." miindset is a pretty bad one that makes one vulnerable to predatory agents.

Same crap as those talent agents who offer to get your kid into Disney. That's actually the cleanest reference I got.
 
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It's sort of funny how they compared Trump University to Walden. First of all, Trump U. didn't really pretend to be a real school as opposed to the typical "how to get rich in real estate" type of seminar. Also, you can't get student loans to pay for Trump U. and the dollar amounts were miniscule compared to the 200k plus at this school. Another thing they didn't discuss is how much of that debt actually went to the school. A lot of that debt was likely spent on "living expenses" so some of these students are just deferring getting a real job. One more way to support people who aren't working and keep the unemployment numbers down.
 
While I agree that poor decisions should not be coddled, the level of money being taken in by for-profit schools allows them to appear more legit and fund more legitimate organizations that normalize these decisions as sane ones when they are anything but sane. Looking at the us, it is not as if the APA does anything to actually ensure that adequate completion of graduate education occurs or that standards are meet to ensure no oversupply of candidates in the free market. Hell, here is the thinking that was being pushed from when I was in grad school regarding doing it all:

http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2005/09/halftime.aspx

People need clear facts...maybe slapped right on the side of the website or brochure like a nutrition label.
 
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When given "free money" people will make uninformed and/or impulsive decisions. My grandfather also got the GI bill, in 1945. I can't help but think he was a bit more pragmatic and scrupulous regarding when and how he was deciding how to use it. He still alive, so I should just ask him?

This type of "education" is rampant in the military, and with the veteran population. There is enough blame to go around, I think.
 
erg923 said:
This type of "education" is rampant in the military, and with the veteran population. There is enough blame to go around, I think.
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Military branches actively push online training and these predatory programs actively target military members because of the GI Bill and available student loans after they burn through the military $.
 
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Sanman said:
People need clear facts...maybe slapped right on the side of the website or brochure like a nutrition label.
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clinical programs are required to post their stats (match rate, etc.) on their websites, I believe.
 
hamsterpants said:
clinical programs are required to post their stats (match rate, etc.) on their websites, I believe.
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As mentioned only APA accredited programs are required to do this. The data can also be obfuscated to some degree. While it has started to look at the licensed percentage, much of the outcome data focuses on internship. The number of people actually employed/employable and salary are never included. Also, it is completely within their rights to bury the data on their website. So, someone that is licensed, but is employed as a manager at Starbucks rather than psychologist because of the quality of their internship and program is still considered a full-time employed graduate. Granted with a full-time salary of 48k and benefits at Starbucks, I know some English and History PhDs that could use the upgrade as well.
 
erg923 said:
When given "free money" people will make uninformed and/or impulsive decisions. My grandfather also got the GI bill, in 1945. I can't help but think he was a bit more pragmatic and scrupulous regarding when and how he was deciding how to use it. He still alive, so I should just ask him?

This type of "education" is rampant in the military, and with the veteran population. There is enough blame to go around, I think.
Click to expand...
While I can get behind this to some degree, I also think the playing field was completely different then. My father got the GI bill sometime around 1955, and went straight into a high-end university. I'm not sure what kind of student he was in high school, but I can't see that happening now - four years in the Army then directly into a difficult university with an excellent reputation. Yes, he made a pragmatic and good choice, but he had a lot more choices than people do now.

That being said, I am a proponent of personal responsibility... AND, that being said, I was lucky to have good mentors. I looked at an expensive PsyD program back in the day, and even went to an information session. Luckily I had a good adviser who set me on a better path. I still left with more debt than I would like, but again am lucky with EDRP, but on the flip side of that, have dealt with a lot of challenges to maintain that EDRP (long commute, putting off home ownership FAR longer than most people my age would be willing to d0). I wish the message could be sent to everyone that you can't have it all, and stop believing that you can. You have to pick the things that are the most important.
 
Psycycle said:
I wish the message could be sent to everyone that you can't have it all, and stop believing that you can. You have to pick the things that are the most important.
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You mean I can't just decide one day I want to be a psychologist, stay in my highly desirable area (NYC/LA/SF), go to school part-time around my work schedule, and make $250k coming out and only work with celebrities? Why are you stomping on my dreams?!!

Next thing you are going to tell me is that my Life Coaching and MLM shakeology businesses are not revolutionary!
 
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Psycycle said:
While I can get behind this to some degree, I also think the playing field was completely different then. My father got the GI bill sometime around 1955, and went straight into a high-end university. I'm not sure what kind of student he was in high school, but I can't see that happening now - four years in the Army then directly into a difficult university with an excellent reputation. Yes, he made a pragmatic and good choice, but he had a lot more choices than people do now.

That being said, I am a proponent of personal responsibility... AND, that being said, I was lucky to have good mentors. I looked at an expensive PsyD program back in the day, and even went to an information session. Luckily I had a good adviser who set me on a better path. I still left with more debt than I would like, but again am lucky with EDRP, but on the flip side of that, have dealt with a lot of challenges to maintain that EDRP (long commute, putting off home ownership FAR longer than most people my age would be willing to d0). I wish the message could be sent to everyone that you can't have it all, and stop believing that you can. You have to pick the things that are the most important.
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I second this. I got VERY lucky that I didn't end up making the mistake of paying a lot of $ to an expensive PsyD program. I don't consider myself a terribly foolish and/or stupid person, but I flew out to the Denver PsyD program for an informational meeting. This was back when I thought I hated research and didn't realize that the research requirements at many funded PhD programs aren't that bad at all. I remember sitting around with the students in Denver asking what their plan was to pay back their debt and their response: We are trying not to think about it. As soon as I heard that, I ran for the hills. I didn't have great mentorship with regard to picking a graduate program in undergrad, which is how I ended up at this meeting. Luckily, I came from a family that valued staying out of debt. My mother woke up at 5 AM every morning in college to wash dishes so she could graduate without any debt (although I recognize that with the cost of an education now, this would be almost impossible without some great financial aid). Regardless, without my parents, who knows where I would be? Potentially 200k in debt. I'll admit that my degree took 3 years longer than had I gone down that original route, but I'm sitting completely debt free, had one of the largest stipends in the country in grad school, and have a degree from a program that tons of people respect. It is unfortunate that so many people lack good mentorship (both in and outside of psychology) with regard to career options. I completely empathize as I could have easily ended up on a similar path. There needs to be more talk/mentorship/etc with students (both undergrad and grad) about how school-related debt impacts your quality of living. Just ask some recent law school grads.....or any number of people sitting with a degree in a flooded job market.
 
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The comments you heard from potential students in Denver is not "bad mentorship" in college. Is more likely a reflection of negligent parent mentoring about the realities of life. It takes a marked amount of ignorance to essentially spend hundred of thousand of dollars on something and then take a "out of sight out of mind" approach.
 
erg923 said:
The comments you heard from potential students in Denver is not "bad mentorship" in college. Is more likely a reflection of negligent parent mentoring about the realities of life. It takes a marked amount of ignorance to essentially spent hundred of thousand of dollars and then take a "out of sight out of mind" approach.
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Completely agree that it wasn't bad mentorship....I was more referring to professors who encourage students to apply to programs that will leave people in tons of debt as bad mentorship. Ignorance indeed with regard to the "out of sight out of mind" approach.
 
RejectClinical said:
I second this. I got VERY lucky that I didn't end up making the mistake of paying a lot of $ to an expensive PsyD program. I don't consider myself a terribly foolish and/or stupid person, but I flew out to the Denver PsyD program for an informational meeting. This was back when I thought I hated research and didn't realize that the research requirements at many funded PhD programs aren't that bad at all. I remember sitting around with the students in Denver asking what their plan was to pay back their debt and their response: We are trying not to think about it. As soon as I heard that, I ran for the hills. I didn't have great mentorship with regard to picking a graduate program in undergrad, which is how I ended up at this meeting. Luckily, I came from a family that valued staying out of debt. My mother woke up at 5 AM every morning in college to wash dishes so she could graduate without any debt (although I recognize that with the cost of an education now, this would be almost impossible without some great financial aid). Regardless, without my parents, who knows where I would be? Potentially 200k in debt. I'll admit that my degree took 3 years longer than had I gone down that original route, but I'm sitting completely debt free, had one of the largest stipends in the country in grad school, and have a degree from a program that tons of people respect. It is unfortunate that so many people lack good mentorship (both in and outside of psychology) with regard to career options. I completely empathize as I could have easily ended up on a similar path. There needs to be more talk/mentorship/etc with students (both undergrad and grad) about how school-related debt impacts your quality of living. Just ask some recent law school grads.....or any number of people sitting with a degree in a flooded job market.
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Yes, I thought I wasn't a researcher also. At my information session, someone asked about the astronomical debt and the response from the program was "well, no one has filed bankruptcy yet or defaulted on their loans" and they handed out a public service loan repayment flyer.

I did not graduate from my funded PhD program debt free (as referenced in other threads), and I didn't understand debt when I took it on. I feel fortunate that I am nowhere near the FSPS PsyD level of debt, however, because even the debt I do have is (well, was, before EDRP) frankly, limiting. I've talked a lot about my gratitude for EDRP, but you couldn't even do EDRP with $200K level debt, because they pull your loans into a five year period and pay you by reimbursement. So if you had $200K you'd need to come up with $40K ON YOUR OWN the first year (not even taking into account interest).... $3333 per month. There's no way. So with PsyD level debt, I don't think the VA repayment options are even on the table.


erg923 said:
The comments you heard from potential students in Denver is not "bad mentorship" in college. Is more likely a reflection of negligent parent mentoring about the realities of life. It takes a marked amount of ignorance to essentially spend hundred of thousand of dollars on something and then take a "out of sight out of mind" approach.
Click to expand...

I think college mentors can partially fill in for a lack of parental mentoring. And that lack of parental mentoring is multifactorial. My parents were extremely good with money, but they did little to explain it to me other than to tell me to "save your money." College mentors can be particularly helpful when you go to informational sessions and people are telling you that everyone who's done it is just fine. Maybe that's part of the reason I like to come on these boards and talk about debt... because I don't think people always do get good mentorship or a clear picture of what that debt means. I feel like I dodged a bullet in a major, major way.
 
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