Oh oops, I had misread OP's statement about having declined UCD already. I thought he/she was still entertaining going there while waiting to hear from Trinity.
I read too quickly through posts all the time. Or when I'm tired..which I should never do. It's like instant regret every time after I've posted the wrong response.
It seems as though Australia is the safer bet anyway, because of the 0 chance of getting an internship in Ireland after graduation. Possibility to stay in Australia is obviously better odds than 0. Anecdotally, talking to some of my international student colleagues in year 3 over in Australia
I know it seems that way to you, and anecdotally based on your MS3 peers, but my point is that it won't be to everyone. I wouldn't extrapolate that to the entire country. Be so easy if it were the case. Not everyone is going to see "better odds than 0" as great, similarly some premeds will think a 60% match rate home is great. Is it really though? it's not 0 odds to work in Ireland either, you just have to be exceptional. It's hard yes, impossible no.
And even though you're in a unique position of observing UQ trad, what you're essentially doing is giving second hand opinion and advice of students who haven't gone through applying for residency yet. Haven't done interviews, haven't put together applications. Probably haven't even thought about registrar or vocational training yet :S
It's similar to me forming opinions about UQO and then disseminating it. I had many close friends come through that program, but I'm not the one spending 2 clinical years in NOLA.
I can appreciate the pressures that they went through, of having to do the Steps on time by contract they signed, doling out higher tuition fees than any other student in Australia, and dealing with UQ imposing rules from Australia on UQO etc. etc. But I didn't have to live through it.
I knew people who failed at UQO, like dismissed forever with debts, and those who successfully matched and matched in the middle of expectations, or SOAP'd etc. They'll all have their own opinions of UQO.
But, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want me jumping into the UQO thread on a very regular basis to give them all advice based on the balance of what my UQO friends told me years ago now. I'd find that pretty weird too if I did that. Which is probably why I'm not.
It's not to say, don't give advice either. It's not wrong, far from it. you've been really dedicated to the forums to the benefit of premeds and students junior to you.
Just have awareness of where you're coming from and your own level of expertise - that is safe for the premeds you advise and for you as the advice giver. Stir up conversations if you're out of your level. etc.
I'm probably a bit more hypervigilant of this, because of work. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with some night shift calls, do I wake up my boss at 2 am? or do I make the decision and wait until 6-7 am? sometimes I make the wrong decision. Shoulda called the boss or shoulda let them sleep. ****.
You also don't want to give advice that you might regret later. I know that's not your intention. Particularly on degrees that you haven't actually done. I've tried to be very careful on talking about Irish degrees for example.
Anecdotally, talking to some of my international student colleagues in year 3 over in Australia where they are fairly split over wanting to stay and train there or return home.... How this will actually play out remains to be seen as they aren't applying quite yet.
You can definitely go, my cohort did this or that anecdotally, but what i wouldn't do is use that to predict the future for premeds who are farther away by 4-5 years. You just don't know what's going to happen. Some are going to be okay with unexpected changes others aren't.
For instance - on unpredictability, it's been a rocky year for the now new interns, the VISA situation changed on them without warning. May be it will settle and change some more, but they won't benefit from it, at least not immediately.
They're currently looking at 2 different VISAs minimum whereas for the previous years it was 1 VISA with PR pathway. Many new interns now have to do a 485 visa, which means they have to do another VISA in 2 years. depending on further changes, maybe it'll be a 4 year one with PR pathway, may be not, could be another 2 year one. The feds are re-looking at things for international students, but nothing has come out yet. So.. if you're finishing up your degree in the interim of final decisions. It continues to string you along.
This also makes it harder if you want to get vocational training with a college that will only accept PR or citizens. So, as you can imagine some of the affected students/ex-student of them are not happy with this, even though others are coping pretty well. And you won't have any idea how premeds on an internet forum will respond to these situations when they become students.
It's hard to start a degree under one set of conditions based on what people tell you whether it's forums or the school, then a couple of years in, go "surprise!"
Similarly, the South Australian students had a horrible time in 2015. Many of them anticipated staying with networks and families in South Australia and in the end, had to move. -
DO NOT COME TO SOUTH AUSTRALIA (FLINDERS MED) for medicine.
That's like.. a normal thing in Australia now. Dealing with last minute change. Some of us get used to it. And have no f**s left to give. Who cares anymore anyway. Others get pretty demoralized and bitter. Some are just untouched by everything.
So many premeds are like, whatever, they still all had jobs in the end. Which greatly minimizes what some of the students had to go through. like in here:
DO NOT COME TO SOUTH AUSTRALIA (FLINDERS MED) for medicine
It's been years that students in 4 year onshore Australian programs are split with going home or staying where they are. Many will say what they will about their choice - but they either flopped the boards or never bothered to take them. I don't know for how much longer they'll have this luxury for, I can't predict this. A smaller proportion is genuine about staying in Australia and work extremely hard to ensure that.
That it is actually easier for them to secure at least an internship/ prelim training in Australia- or at least that is the perception I'm getting. How this will actually play out remains to be seen as they aren't applying quite yet.
You're forgetting that internship in Australia is a year - which every premed and student forgets, it's all about just getting that internship and all your problems are solved after. I did that too.
With the intern year...it almost doesn't mean that much, it doesn't make you a fully qualified doctor or get you any closer to vocational training. It's trending now that you have to do at least a couple if not a few years of hospitalist resident rotations then apply to a college. Imagine, multiple prelim years instead of just the one. Such is the oversupply we're in. It's great for the colleges, better quality applications.
It's not bad. It's just a long journey to vocational training in Australia and it's not particularly straightforward either. it currently matters a bit where you start internship, otherwise the domestics wouldn't be so hell bent on tertiary training from day 0. Unless you are positive about rural generalist or GP training. And the points system for vocational training in Australia, depending on college are even nuttier than what programs in Canada and the US want. Some of the colleges have their own entry exams too. So it's not really surprising that it takes PGY4-5 years to even accumulate enough points to apply to some programs. These are doable, but you get that it requires immense dedication. And they often don't become fully qualified till PGY10-12 etc.
Grass is always greener on the other side on what's 'easy'. I could say that you've the luxury of a supportive program that allows you to match in the US and have a real opportunity to go directly into vocational training. Skipping all the bullcrap we have to deal with to get into reg training. It's about perspective. It's all a different set of problems. No one really gets it easier anywhere.
Easier to get a prelim year now sure, but depending on what you want, you're merely delaying 'problems'.
-- it seems that it is getting increasingly more difficult to return to Canada or the U.S. for residency even with all the board exams done.
On whether it's hard to match back. It's hard work. Is what it is. Hard work and working with stigma against you. It is not impossible. Every med student I know complains to high heavens about the work taken to match back. But you get literally get what you put in and you have to have a lot of commitment and discipline.
Unfortunately, not every student who goes off shore is prepared to work hard, not like that. The minute someone goes, "the MCAT is too much work.. I'm either not going to take it or go half assed and go offshore. North America has unrealistic expectations of its medical students etc." it's Like.. I don't know what to tell you. It's never going to get easier. And I can see right now you're not going to want to do the boards. then yes, it will be harder for you to go home, unless you change your perspective.
However, if you put in the work. Genuinely. You have great scores, CV, research and you did rotations at home with good LORs - then you should have a realistic idea of whether it's going to work or not. In fact, on your SubI at home, people will around you will tell you what they think. If they like you, they will want you to apply to their program, they'll introduce you to their program director.
Again going back to, can't simply look at stats alone.
You also have to ensure applying to things that are realistic to your situation and application, and having appropriate back up. As a purely anecdotal example, I knew people who only applied for competitive programs and ended up with either a year off or soaping into something they didn't want.
And yes I know most of the international students in Ireland are Canadian, but the cohorts and total class sizes are still smaller than UQ's and Sydney's canadian cohort within their respective classes maybe even smaller than Flinders and Griffith's as well.
South of QLD, majority of international students are Singaporean and Malaysian. with some exceptions.
Irish grads are more used to having only to apply back home - would be my impression. It's reflected in the match statistics - they've been consistently higher than Australia or Carribbean. Also, their school selection criteria is higher than in Australia overall. If it's about matching back to Canada as a primary goal... I don't know. potentially Ireland hedges a marginal advantage. But it's not my opinion to make. Haven't studied in Ireland. Among other things.
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Sorry for the wall of text! I know you find that annoying.
Something for me to continue to work on. Kinda failing that right now.
quoting John Waters:
There's always going to be bitter, scared or negative students and premeds coming to talk about off-shore.
I don't want encourage a toxic atmosphere, but nor do I want to be dismissive of their fears. Dismissive of the bad experiences they had. Or what they see as potential negative or downsides to the process of medical training, particularly off-shore anywhere. Etc.
We don't know how all these premeds will respond to what happens to them as student. we just can't. But I think it's important to ensure that they are well informed. Much like "informed consent" for procedures. If they are receptive to it, so as to prevent greater disappointment. rather than saying, everything will eventually turn out fine, just go.
Entering in this path either blind to issues or unsure/scared, it carries the risk of mental health issues later. Which is made worse by being far away from family and living in an uncertain future. I've seen students and residents in pain, and I don't really know what to do. But I remember them when I come into these forums.
By the time you grad, you too, will know people in your cohort who will be asked to leave, who are repeating, who failed out, or will fail to match and SOAP'd etc. And when you're a resident, you will know interns and residents who will quit or be asked to repeat or leave. It's a small proportion, but none of them could have seen what would happen to them.
Ship has sailed. OP is already shaky on things. I know you mean well. But it's kinda like kicking someone when they're already down.
