Stunning...

[BubbleHead]

Big question for many people is... Go with the big name program or with the smaller more cush program promising "plenty of time to read"?

I found a website: www.napr.org (Nation Association of Physician Recruiters).
This site lists hundreds of recruiters across the US and so I called a dozen or so and reached 9, all in different states. They all indicated name/reputation won't make a candidate more marketable if you're looking for a private practice position upon graduation.

Anyone in practice who hires graduates care to comment on the validity of this notion? Thanks

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[DrRobert]

I've inquired about this several times over the past couple years. It seems that a predictable trend has developed. When you ask those who trained at big name institutions, they generally suggest that name does matter. When you ask those who did not train at big name programs, they generally suggest that name does not matter.

I think the true answer lies somewhere in the middle.

The best answer I've heard to this question was from a private practice anesthesiologist who was formerly in academics at a big name program.

To paraphrase: If you plan on entering academic medicine, then you should try to train at a big name academic program. If you plan on entering private practice, name matters far less. Many private groups hire from the local training programs, regardless of prestige. If you look at the makeup of the average private group, you will see anesthesiologists from all over the spectrum with regards to training. Rarely will you see a group that has mostly Harvard-trained anesthesiologists.

Finally, if you talk to enough PDs, chairs, attendings, and residents at enough programs, you will hear a common theme. 95% of programs will provide great training that will allow you to become an excellent anesthesiologist. Find a program that you fit in with and will be happy at for 3 years. In the end, private groups are looking for team players that work hard and generally get along well with others - not where you trained.

 

[aredoubleyou]

Big question for many people is... Go with the big name program or with the smaller more cush program promising "plenty of time to read"?

I found a website: www.napr.org (Nation Association of Physician Recruiters).
This site lists hundreds of recruiters across the US and so I called a dozen or so and reached 9, all in different states. They all indicated name/reputation won't make a candidate more marketable if you're looking for a private practice position upon graduation.

Anyone in practice who hires graduates care to comment on the validity of this notion? Thanks

Bubble head, you actually called these paces - damn, you rock.

 

[BubbleHead]

Bubble head, you actually called these paces - damn, you rock.

Yeah I called them, I figured they were the ones I would seek help from in 4 years if I need it. They're usually small operations and I talked with the man or woman running the show in 8 of 9 calls. 2 places said they placed few Anesthesia types, but the others had placed 50-100 MDs in the field. Really funny, a couple asked if I wanted to register with them. I told them all I was an MS-IV wondering what if anything I could do to increase my marketability when I finish in 4 yrs.

Things I was told that matter in making it easier to find a job:

Board Cert/Eligible you must be one of the 2
No Open claims against you
US allopathic med school trained came up 3 times out of 9

Interesting stuff... You can call these types of places for yourself, call places in your region and start a relationship now. I talked to CA-2s on the trail that have already been contacted by groups in the area wanting to know if they planned on staying in the region after graduation.

 

[militarymd]

Just a heads up for you.

Most groups, at least all the ones I've met and interacted with, despise recruiters.

Recruiters charge $10,000 to $25,000 per placement to the group. Now, the recruiters say they work for you and won't charge you any money....that's certainly true, but where do you think the money comes from?????

They charge the group....so the the group pays for it right???? Where do you think the group gets the money from???? Usually your paycheck.

In general, good groups don't use recuiters.....groups that are desperate for help will use them......groups looking for suckers to screw will use them.

I used them 2 years ago, when I was getting out of the Navy....I had my name with over 10 firms....and they gave me ZIP....don't get me wrong, they found me lots of jobs, but they were all groups looking to screw the new guy....or groups in PoDunk, USA where FEW people in their right mind wants to live.

All of my good prospects were jobs that I hunted down on my own.

UT...you guys are looking...are you using recruiters?

 

[BubbleHead]

That's good information to have and it makes sense.

 

[ThinkFast007]

hey Bubblehead...u are asking the Million $$$ question my man.

I've got the same dilemma. Community programs I think allow you time to read, well maybe not ALL of them. While most Univ programs are busy as heck and you read next to nil.

Here's my take on it. I'm only a MSIV.

After talking to ppl at these programs that I interviewed at, theyve told me that the ABA has guidelines as to how many procedures one needs to have done. Meaning you have to do X epidurals, X spinals, X Fiberoptic intubations, etc. So....anywhere you go these days for residencies you must fulfill these criteria.

Secondly, a resident gave me this advice. Anyone can do the technical aspects of a regional block. Think about it, you look at the screen of the nerve stimulator and either advance the needle or retract. Furthermore, someone that has done 50 blocks may still have trouble locating the nerve etc...while others who havent done nearly as much may not. So just because a school brags about the fact that they perform 5000000 regional blocks, it doesnt mk a difference. But.....in his opinion (which I agree w/) if one gets time to read about the procedure and really understand it and the complications, indications etc, they are better off.

Then there's the fellowship issue. And here's my take on it. Most places I looked into may have like 3 pain fellowships for example. Out of the 3, usually one is from that programs anesthesia program. The other 2 may be from a Univ based OR a community based program. So.......even in terms of fellowships, your chances are 50-50 either way. But i'm sure w/ things changing and becoming more competitive...for fellowships/academia university programs may be more appealing.

Bottom line as many have said on other threads...as long as you can get along w/ ppl fine.....u can land a job...atleast that's what I hope

 

[UTSouthwestern]

Just a heads up for you.

Most groups, at least all the ones I've met and interacted with, despise recruiters.

Recruiters charge $10,000 to $25,000 per placement to the group. Now, the recruiters say they work for you and won't charge you any money....that's certainly true, but where do you think the money comes from?????

They charge the group....so the the group pays for it right???? Where do you think the group gets the money from???? Usually your paycheck.

In general, good groups don't use recuiters.....groups that are desperate for help will use them......groups looking for suckers to screw will use them.

I used them 2 years ago, when I was getting out of the Navy....I had my name with over 10 firms....and they gave me ZIP....don't get me wrong, they found me lots of jobs, but they were all groups looking to screw the new guy....or groups in PoDunk, USA where FEW people in their right mind wants to live.

All of my good prospects were jobs that I hunted down on my own.

UT...you guys are looking...are you using recruiters?

We've used one recruiter in the past who is based in Dallas and knows our criteria. He has yet to find one guy for us although he got paid for "finding" me (long story, but the group did pay him for helping to recruit me).

Otherwise, we do a lot of leg work on our own. This forum, calling PD's of strong programs, advertising on Gas Work, SCA website, etc. I'd prefer not to use recruiters if only because their reimbursement scenarios may dictate who they introduce to who.

 

[aredoubleyou]

...calling PD's of strong programs,...

UTSW, you're stressing me out now

What do you mean strong programs? (meaning there are weak programs)...

Sorry for putting you on the spot, but even a clue to which type of program you were not calling would be appreciated...

...am I getting way too stressed out about this?

 

[BubbleHead]

UTSW, you're stressing me out now

What do you mean strong programs? (meaning there are weak programs)...

Sorry for putting you on the spot, but even a clue to which type of program you were not calling would be appreciated...

...am I getting way too stressed out about this?

One thing the bigger name places I've interviewed with have mentioned is the "Network" of their own graduates that call to see "is there anyone graduating that wants to be in city xyz, because we're looking". This may be common with any program, but bigger places with more residents have more graduates that create bigger "Networks"...

 

[VentdependenT]

Man I just got back from Kauai and now I gotta friggen stress about jobs and my peers giving themselves "the stranger." Sigh, I wanna be back on the damn beach.

 

[UTSouthwestern]

UTSW, you're stressing me out now

What do you mean strong programs? (meaning there are weak programs)...

Sorry for putting you on the spot, but even a clue to which type of program you were not calling would be appreciated...

...am I getting way too stressed out about this?

Don't worry about it. If you are a good candidate and you do a lot of tough cases, you'll get a job easily.

When we go through the candidate pool but still need to find more candidates, we start to use our connections with strong programs like Mass General, UCSF, etc. to find people who may be strong candidates but may not have heard of us or our job openings.

That doesn't mean we are only considering people from those programs. It just means we may look there first for candidates because we know it's a lot harder to make it through those programs poorly trained. We aren't going to be dialing up Texas El Paso to see if they have an available graduating resident, fellow, or faculty member.

 

[nimbus]

I work in a big, excellent group in southern California. I am not on the recruiting committee so I do not know the specifics of the interview/hiring criteria. What I can tell you is that almost all of the new grads who join the group are from top programs eg MGH, UCSF, U of W. This may be due to historical/geographical reasons. For example I have not met any new members from Penn or Hopkins. Also, experienced people are hired from a wider set of programs, and because of geography and their history of excellence within our group, we see many experienced ex-Navy physicians.

In my own case, I finished at UCSD in the 1990s during a tight job market. On my first go around I was not offered an interview by my current group. I worked elsewhere for several years, had excellent references, reapplied and was hired. My take on this is that the reputation of your program is most important for obtaining your first job out of residency. After that you have an opportunity to make your own reputation, good or bad.

That being said, case variety and volume are the most important traits of a training program. Many reputable but not "big name" programs offer this. You can not learn anesthesia without actually doing the cases. I would specifically look for a high volume of peds, hearts and trauma even if you don't plan to practice those areas later. Most programs have plenty of OB. Regional you can learn on your own if you have the interest. (I did this mostly after my residency while in practice.) Pain practice requires a fellowship for new grads anyway so this is not so important in residency. Try to get a good ICU experience during internship. Faculty reputation, didactics, NIH grant funding are all secondary IMHO. I would NOT recommend a cush program with plenty of time to read.


My other point is that geography is very important, perhaps more than the reputation of the program. It is important to think about where you want to live after residency. If you want to live/work in Wisconsin or Pennsylvania, you might be better off training at one of the reputable local programs rather than a big name in an expensive city. If you want to live in Arizona, train here. I would go so far as to call the practices in the areas you want to live and ask them about their hiring patterns. Tell them you are an MS4 trying to decide where to train and ask them where they go for new hires.

In the end if you are undecided about geography, you definitely should try to match at a "big name" program. I think they offer more flexibility/options upon graduation.

 

[militarymd]

Nimbus,

Where are you? Do you know Dave Elkins?