Succeeding as a prelim intern

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agranulocytosis

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After getting over the initial euphoria/disappointment to the match, I'm sure we're all settling down now and trying to focus on relocation and preparations for the next stage in our lives. I was wondering what tips/suggestions you all have for us newly minted interns, especially the prelims, to succeed next year.

I've been reading that the prelim year can be pretty brutal, what with the competition among the other prelims vying for that same categorical spot you're shooting for. How did you and how should we approach this atmosphere?

I'm not looking to step over anyone's toes and I actually would rather not stand out. Keeping my head down and not making any major blunders are my primary goals for next year, but I fear not standing out would make me lost in the sea of the other prelims and inhibit my ability to match the following year. This is something I'm quite anxious about because I'd like this upcoming year to be as benign as possible. I understand that I can't control how others act, but at least I can control the way I do.

I'm open to any advice and opinions.
 
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Having been in a prelim slot, and being able to capitalize on it myself.

-The end goal for you is to be indistinguishable from the categorical interns in the program. That you can be relied on to get the job done. If you are looking at the current program, make them see that you as one of their own, and not a peripheral member as some prelims seem to be. That includes being polite with the support/nursing staff (got a deal on a washer and dryer from one.)

-Be THE team player. Don't be the difficult to get along with person. Be flexible. Admit when you are wrong/don't know, and diplomatic about asking for other options. This also helps when you when you have to go off on interviews, as they might give you a bit more flexibility.

-Make sure your stuff is together. Know your patients, know the current game plan for each of them. Read a bit. Politely offer other options if there are any. Be the one the seniors don't have to worry about because you have to be monitored.

-Other prelims trying to sabotage you? Remember the above things. Keeping up on things, being positive about the team tends to take away a lot of the material they can use to sabotage you. Don't seek revenge, as it can get into a furball that can screw up your final goal (getting categorical.) The best revenge for those that wish you harm is to live and work well.

-Remember, not only are you being evaluated, but also you can get more in-depth LORs for the application, which could be weighted more heavily than the ones you have. The PD and attendings who have basically given you more free reign than a student are seeing how you do with it, i.e. ACTUAL CLINICAL EXPERIENCE. This is why starting the ground running is good. NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF YOUR FINAL GOAL, that is to get on into a surgical program (which, when posting here, I am assuming you want to do instead of Derm or FP.)

-Watch for PGY-2 categorical openings for the start of the next year (through the grapevine and websites.) I don't know how rough the rules are for the Match/ERAS are going to be for this year, but I still believe you can withdraw from the Match if you have a spot with contract offered. Other people with more experience on how this pans out, please chime in.

-On the chance your current program offers you a spot, it may mean that you are going to be an intern a second year because you are now on the categorical track (my program did with two interns who went categorical.) Don't let that depress you. And don't let it get to your head. And don't ignore the above guidelines, (except instead of "intern," "PGY-2," and "categorical," substitute "fellowship," "job offer," and "partnership.") Everything you do builds on the next step of your dream. 🙂

There are other bits of knowledge of wisdom I impart in some of my posts here, buried (not deeply,) into the sarcasm and (hopefully) rapier-like wit. Other people have done the same.
 
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Great post by Ronin2258. Do everything he says and you'll find yourself in a great position. All your letters should come from you intern year. Talk to the PD/Chair early so you can try and schedule your intern year to have general surgery rotations July-sep for letters (This is what I did). Then continue to meet with them throughout the year since as a prelim intern you'll need their LOR. The match is a big game. Have your Letter writers or chair/PD call programs in late January/early Feb.

Second year spots are tough to find. Look for those, but have a back up plan such as applying through the match, be ready to ask for a second prelim year spot, or have research set up. Talk to people and get their advice. Suprisingly at my prelim program a lot of attendings were willing to sit down and give me advice on what to do, and much of that was detailed by Ronin2258.

During my prelim year I had offers to take second year prelim positions with the caveat that after a trial month, they would take me for a categorical second year position. I was weary of these offers, so I did not take them. Many of the offers came from academic instutitions where my chair new knew their chair/PD, or they came after I had interviewed and I think made a good impression. I never took these positions and elected to go through the match. However you may think differently.

When you interview, be ready to answer why you didn't match, and why you would be a better candidate than anyone else. Have a message that you convey to the interviewers and stick to it. Practice it many times before interviews start. It's a game. You have to play it.

Good Luck! PM if you have any questions.
 
Just to follow on, and described what happened to me:

-Got the prelim intern slot.

-Stepped up when asked, did what I described above.

-PD offered me a prelim PGY-2 slot that he had for me when I didn't match, with my initial license paid for by the department. My work during that year allowed him to ask for an extra categorial slot when I left for research (which they needed.) (Hell, being given that was more than enough to work hard. It was a good program.) Gave him the justification in the call schedule, etc. So staying was a win-win; retainability for me, and an extra spot for the program.

-Connections to get the research post I was in, which improved my chances to my end goal.

-Called them up last fall for a new PD letter when a couple of opportunities came up. I had it in my hands within 1 week. And thanks to that effort I made in the program, the letter was still golden 2 years later. I got into my chosen specialty and start that this June.

Now granted, I want to be/am on the northside of the curtain. *ducks from stoning* However, I made sure while I was in the internship and PGY-2 slot, I *was* a surgeon. Demonstrated adaptability, and picked up a few tidbits on the way that should help me on the northside. First 4 cases of my PGY-2 slot were a fem-fem and 3 carotid endardectomies with the PD. (my first reaction, "Boss, remember? Me, prelim-2? This case is what, 3rd, 4th year?" PD: "No problem. Follow my lead.") Did more anastomosis sewing than I thought I should have. Big ego boost, but damned scary at the same time. And yes, all 4 of them survived. Made sure that the floor ran as smooth as I could when given charge of it.

Best of luck.
 
One more important piece of advice that other posts have mentioned...

All of the above are extremely important. But the most objective comparison of your abilities to categorical residents is your absite score.

I would spend adequate time preparing for this exam. It is an important part of being a prelim. Because at the end of the day, all or most surgery interns work hard, and only way to distinguish yourself are the absite scores.

It is really amazing and sad how a score changes preceptions of ones capabilities. I am an example, I felt inadequate as a surgery prelim intern compared to other categoricals and my evals were not great. But getting a higher score than majority of the categoricals suddenly, instantaneously placed me in better light with all the attendings and gave me the confidence to perform better clinically...
 
Thanks a ton! I do want to eventually get into a categorical surgery program, and I ranked this prelim program #1 on my list, so I'm not worried about answering why I didn't get a categorical position in this match.

I truly feel as though I may not be the best-perceived intern/prelim there, primarily because I'm a man of few words, but definitely not the introvert type. All throughout my 3rd and 4th-year rotations I tried to make small talk with the residents, nursing staff and other students, but I just couldn't do it. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that we spend such an abbreviated amount of time getting to know them that a true relationship can't be maintained?

Who knows, perhaps spending so much time together will foster that bond where I can get to know people and make real conversation.

Either way, I just don't want to do something to compensate for this perception by trying to out-do the other interns unintentionally. Because I can definitely see this happening given the atmosphere of competition among prelims.

Thanks again guys. Hopefully this benefits the other prelims in the same position.
 
I truly feel as though I may not be the best-perceived intern/prelim there, primarily because I'm a man of few words, but definitely not the introvert type. All throughout my 3rd and 4th-year rotations I tried to make small talk with the residents, nursing staff and other students, but I just couldn't do it.

To some degree, you're going to have to work at becoming more outgoing - not necessarily brash and loud and arrogant, but definitely work on being more confident and assertive. Unfortunately, in surgery those that are quiet and well-behaved and polite are perceived as being "disinterested" (and this has been the downfall of many a medical student). Confidence will come as you feel more comfortable with your clinical and technical skills as well.
 
To some degree, you're going to have to work at becoming more outgoing - not necessarily brash and loud and arrogant, but definitely work on being more confident and assertive. Unfortunately, in surgery those that are quiet and well-behaved and polite are perceived as being "disinterested" (and this has been the downfall of many a medical student). Confidence will come as you feel more comfortable with your clinical and technical skills as well.


I relate to that a lot. I have misunderstood for a long time and it took a lot of changes in me to prove a point. I am still making that transition.
 
I relate to that a lot. I have misunderstood for a long time and it took a lot of changes in me to prove a point. I am still making that transition.

For the most part, all of us have to constantly work at this. There are some truly extroverted personalities in surgery (self-selection bias) but for everyone else you have to become comfortable with public speaking, asserting yourself, etc.

No one ever finishes a General Surgery residency being timid/shy/passive.
 
Thanks a ton! I do want to eventually get into a categorical surgery program, and I ranked this prelim program #1 on my list, so I'm not worried about answering why I didn't get a categorical position in this match.
Why didn't you rank categorical programs ahead of prelim programs? I'm not sure what you have to lose. I wasn't aware people did this.
 
Why didn't you rank categorical programs ahead of prelim programs? I'm not sure what you have to lose. I wasn't aware people did this.

I personally felt my career would be better served having done a prelim year at this institution as opposed to being committed to a program that would limit my future goals. This was the most prestigious program out of all my interviews.

Plus, I felt quite good about that interview and got the best vibe from that day.

The way my rank list went, the following 7 were categorical programs.
 
I personally felt my career would be better served having done a prelim year at this institution as opposed to being committed to a program that would limit my future goals. This was the most prestigious program out of all my interviews.

Plus, I felt quite good about that interview and got the best vibe from that day.

The way my rank list went, the following 7 were categorical programs.
Wow, that's a tough choice. Good luck. You have a mountain ahead of you to climb.
 
I personally felt my career would be better served having done a prelim year at this institution as opposed to being committed to a program that would limit my future goals. This was the most prestigious program out of all my interviews.

Plus, I felt quite good about that interview and got the best vibe from that day.

The way my rank list went, the following 7 were categorical programs.

Wow, that took some cojones. I hope you trust whomever gave you that advice...
 
I commend you for taking a prelim. spot because you wanted to be at that institution. you must be an American grad.
 
I personally felt my career would be better served having done a prelim year at this institution as opposed to being committed to a program that would limit my future goals. This was the most prestigious program out of all my interviews.

Plus, I felt quite good about that interview and got the best vibe from that day.

The way my rank list went, the following 7 were categorical programs.

This is just about the craziest thing I have ever read on this forum.
 
Wow, looks like I'm getting a lot of flak for my decision. A lot of the programs where I went for interviews were either on probation, were programs where I felt I wouldn't fit into, had issues with board pass rates, or had few, if any, fellowship placements. This program was the only one where I would truly be satisfied with my training.

As a US-citizen IMG, my categorical invites were quite lacking, save for one, so I did have to make some tough decisions. In the end, I ranked according to where I wanted to go, period. And I'm quite happy to say the least.
 
For the most part, all of us have to constantly work at this. There are some truly extroverted personalities in surgery (self-selection bias) but for everyone else you have to become comfortable with public speaking, asserting yourself, etc.

No one ever finishes a General Surgery residency being timid/shy/passive.

Oh trust me I am learning my lessons. It isn't so much about being passive and shy, it is about being in your face and abrasive that I cannot do. It took me sometime to realize, but it is really your confidence and guts the surgeons want to see displayed. And I get that.
 
Wow, looks like I'm getting a lot of flak for my decision. A lot of the programs where I went for interviews were either on probation, were programs where I felt I wouldn't fit into, had issues with board pass rates, or had few, if any, fellowship placements. This program was the only one where I would truly be satisfied with my training.

As a US-citizen IMG, my categorical invites were quite lacking, save for one, so I did have to make some tough decisions. In the end, I ranked according to where I wanted to go, period. And I'm quite happy to say the least.[/QUOTE

Congratulations. Good luck. I am confident this prelim year will open better doors for you out there.
 
I agree with the others, I hope this decision works out for you. It's truly an uphill battle from a prelim spot to a categorical, especially as an IMG. Hard to imagine why you would turn down the chance at a job for 5 years and an almost guaranteed career as a general surgeon versus the uncertainty of a prelim year and no real firm long term plans. I don't want to pile on here, but I sure hope you discussed this with a trusted mentor first.
 
Wow, looks like I'm getting a lot of flak for my decision. A lot of the programs where I went for interviews were either on probation, were programs where I felt I wouldn't fit into, had issues with board pass rates, or had few, if any, fellowship placements. This program was the only one where I would truly be satisfied with my training.

I understand why others are giving you some flak. This was a pretty risky decision. After all, it is *much* easier to get into fellowship training from *anywhere*, or do well on the boards than it is to translate a preliminary position into a categorical one. Unfortunately, as a US-IMG, beggars can't be choosers and in this day and age of increased competition for those categorical positions, I'd say that few would make the decision you did.

Most programs on probation rectify the problems and come off probation. Very very few ever close. As for fitting in, well that's hard to tell on an interview, but I have to respect that you felt you didn't.

As a US-citizen IMG, my categorical invites were quite lacking, save for one, so I did have to make some tough decisions. In the end, I ranked according to where I wanted to go, period. And I'm quite happy to say the least.
😕

Above you state that you had 7 programs to rank for categorical. I am glad you are happy and I hope it works out well for you. But PLEASE assume that you will have a difficult year and make sure you protect yourself for next year.
 
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I understand why others are giving you some flak. This was a pretty risky decision. After all, it is *much* easier to get into fellowship training from *anywhere*, or do well on the boards than it is to translate a preliminary position into a categorical one. Unfortunately, as a US-IMG, beggars can't be choosers and in this day and age of increased competition for those categorical positions, I'd say that few would make the decision you did.

Most programs on probation rectify the problems and come off probation. Very very few ever close. As for fitting in, well that's hard to tell on an interview, but I have to respect that you felt you didn't.

😕

Above you state that you had 7 programs to rank for categorical. I am glad you are happy and I hope it works out well for you. But PLEASE assume that you will have a difficult year and make sure you protect yourself for next year.

I did have 7 categoricals, but only one of those came close to what I was looking for. I just wanted to be in this program more. Sorry for the confusion there.

Given the amount and proportion of people getting general surgery positions (both PGY-1 and 2) after their prelim year at the program I matched into, it made my decision a lot harder. It opened lots of doors for them - either at that program or elsewhere- opportunities that wouldn't be available to them otherwise. Believe me, I struggled with the decision for a long time, but I feel that I matched into the program that's best for me.

Thanks, I will prepare for the worst this year and try my hardest to prepare for the match. Coming from the Caribbean, I know there are never any guarantees.
 
As a side note, I must say that it's pretty impressive to see so many people interested in others' well-being on these forums. With the culture of hyper-competitiveness and gunning for positions in medicine today, it comes as a surprise that people actually care enough to say a decision is a poor one when it would make my life harder.

I'm not being sarcastic or anything, just glad that people here can be normal folks.

All the advice is appreciated. Thanks everyone.
 
As someone stated above, not trying to pile on here...but...

At any given program, in any given year, the most likely outcome will be that they keep on zero prelims as categoricals. When they do keep them on, it tends to be to fill in spots vacated by attrition, or in order to juggle the numbers of residents coming into/going out of research years. If the program is prestigious, the "stigma" of coming from a caribbean school will not disappear just because you are there as a prelim, and will still affect your chances of being kept.

It seems as if every year there are a couple of individuals on SDN who make this choice (highly rated prelim >> categorical). I would like to see more of them come back and post the outcomes of their choice a few years down the line. The prelim interns I know (from my program, my med school, and other varied friends along the way) have had a miserable year, and I wish they could all claim a successful outcome. I know of only one who was kept on by the program he matched (scrambled actually) into.
 
There has already been a lot of good advice. All I have to add is don't just work hard/study/know your ****. That will be expected. You need to show that you mesh well with the other residents and staff. If you are a guy/gal they can count on to get stuff done right, and they like you it should help your chances of being asked to stay. If you are just the quiet person in the shadows it may hurt your chances.

Edit-not sure what goal you have that is going to be more easily reached by not getting into a categorical position the first time around (they won't care or won't believe that you did it on purpose) versus going to any program out there. I do hope it works out for you, but wouldn't recommend it for others reading this and coming up with plans.
 
As a side note, I must say that it's pretty impressive to see so many people interested in others' well-being on these forums. With the culture of hyper-competitiveness and gunning for positions in medicine today, it comes as a surprise that people actually care enough to say a decision is a poor one when it would make my life harder.

I'm not being sarcastic or anything, just glad that people here can be normal folks.

All the advice is appreciated. Thanks everyone.

That's the nice thing about SDN.

The Surgery forum in particular is a smaller one and we get to "know" the regulars fairly well. And we do care about what happens. A few years ago there was a regular who had a really hard time matching; he seemed to be a decent guy and everyone felt for him. He was recently mentioned here and we found him now a PGY-4 at a program in the Midwest. Although he'd been away from SDN for years, it made those of us who remembered him feel happy that he'd done well for himself.

So yes there are some jerks around here but by and large the users here are "normal people".

Make sure you continue to let us know how you are doing and if you are successful, your experiences will be the basis of advice for those that come after you.
 
I did have 7 categoricals, but only one of those came close to what I was looking for. I just wanted to be in this program more. Sorry for the confusion there.

Given the amount and proportion of people getting general surgery positions (both PGY-1 and 2) after their prelim year at the program I matched into, it made my decision a lot harder. It opened lots of doors for them - either at that program or elsewhere- opportunities that wouldn't be available to them otherwise. Believe me, I struggled with the decision for a long time, but I feel that I matched into the program that's best for me.

Thanks, I will prepare for the worst this year and try my hardest to prepare for the match. Coming from the Caribbean, I know there are never any guarantees.

This Poster reminds me of Blonde Doctor and her story in last year's match. Does anyone know what she's up to? Did she end getting a categorical at Wash U?
 
After all, it is *much* easier to get into fellowship training from *anywhere*, or do well on the boards than it is to translate a preliminary position into a categorical one.

Why is that? If a preliminary performs very well and gets a good ABSITE score, why would not the program want to keep him/her? And even if it does not/cannot, it does not make sense that a preliminary status would make it harder to get in anywhere else the second time around. Students can find themselves in this situation for various reasons. With 25 interviewees per spot (or more at prestigious instituitions) it is a wonder anyone matches at all.
 
Why is that? If a preliminary performs very well and gets a good ABSITE score, why would not the program want to keep him/her? And even if it does not/cannot, it does not make sense that a preliminary status would make it harder to get in anywhere else the second time around. Students can find themselves in this situation for various reasons. With 25 interviewees per spot (or more at prestigious institutions) it is a wonder anyone matches at all.

The second time *might* be easier to match categorical, assuming you perform well during your intern year (I've seen people on the trail who didn't get categorical interviews their first application around, but did as prelims). However, this tends to be true for those with a very weak application the first time around (mainly IMG's), and who use the prelim year to strengthen their app (mainly get US letters, make connections).

The rule of thumb still holds, that your best chance at matching through the NRMP is your first time around. So, if you get categorical interviews, its best to rank them, rather than HOPE you'll get interview invites the following year. That's why everyone here thinks that the OP took a risk. It might work out for the best if the OP happens to hear about a PGY-2 opening at an opportune time and ends up at a great program vs. whatever "lacking" programs he was invited to this cycle.
 
Why is that? If a preliminary performs very well and gets a good ABSITE score, why would not the program want to keep him/her? And even if it does not/cannot, it does not make sense that a preliminary status would make it harder to get in anywhere else the second time around. Students can find themselves in this situation for various reasons. With 25 interviewees per spot (or more at prestigious instituitions) it is a wonder anyone matches at all.

We've discussed this numerous times before. But to re-cap...

1) Programs may not offer any positions to Prelims (for example, see Mayo - they have a fair number of FMG Prelims but *none* of them are offered a Categorical position at Mayo)

2) You are in competition with several other Prelims looking for a position

3) It may be assumed that you weren't good enough to match Categorical; it can tough to shake this bias

4) Some programs may not want a Prelim who has used up a year of funding

5) There aren't enough open PGY-2 positions to take all the Prelim interns who want a position

That said, if the program one is at takes Prelims, that is your best chance at scoring a Categorical position. Some places abuse Prelims - they will keep them on for the max 3 years and never offer them a Categorical position - its a great source of manpower and if you don't offer them the same benes as Categoricals (ie, book fund, loupes, etc.), you can save money.

It doesn't have to make sense to you. But there is loads of information - both anectodal and published that Prelim residents have a harder time finding a position.
 
Some places abuse Prelims - they will keep them on for the max 3 years and never offer them a Categorical position - its a great source of manpower and if you don't offer them the same benes as Categoricals (ie, book fund, loupes, etc.), you can save money.

It doesn't have to make sense to you. But there is loads of information - both anectodal and published that Prelim residents have a harder time finding a position.

I have another professional degree that will support me just as well as being a doctor. I don't have to stay in medicine and certainly will not tolerate anyone "dragging me on" for several years. If your statements are true and the preliminary experience is really this malignant and the odds are slim due to prejudice etc, then maybe next year will be better spent looking for an alternative.
 
I have another professional degree that will support me just as well as being a doctor. I don't have to stay in medicine and certainly will not tolerate anyone "dragging me on" for several years.

That is nice that you have other options.

If your statements are true and the preliminary experience is really this malignant and the odds are slim due to prejudice etc, then maybe next year will be better spent looking for an alternative.

Not all programs are malignant and the odds will vary depending on the candidate, the market and the program. But "looking for an alternative" to a Prelim spot often leads to non-medical work. That may not be in your best interest (depending on the length of time since graduation).
 
...Some places abuse Prelims - they will keep them on for the max 3 years and never offer them a Categorical position - its a great source of manpower and if you don't offer them the same benes as Categoricals (ie, book fund, loupes, etc.), you can save money.

In this aspect, I am very grateful that my program gave me the same benefits. And it gave the program ammo to go to the ACGME and get the position as a categorical permanent post about a year or so after I left.
 
There has already been a lot of good advice. All I have to add is don't just work hard/study/know your ****. That will be expected. You need to show that you mesh well with the other residents and staff. If you are a guy/gal they can count on to get stuff done right, and they like you it should help your chances of being asked to stay. If you are just the quiet person in the shadows it may hurt your chances.
QUOTE]

In order to mesh well with a group, you have to be accepted by the group as one of them. Being friendly, supportive and team player is important and for the most part not difficult to do if you feel reciprocated. What is hard to do is when you are demeaned by the group and the program for being a prelim, then "meshing" is no less then prostituting oneself.

Sorry if this seems bitter, my program and the people here are great, but my circumstances are making me so.
 
This Poster reminds me of Blonde Doctor and her story in last year's match.

This OP's situation is VERY different.

BD was a top-notch applicant for general surgery, who became geographically restricted to a place where she had not applied, too late in the game to do so. Fortunately, one of the programs in that area doesn't have a solid deadline for prelim applicants, and the PD was willing to give her a spot. Also very luckily, it's a program that often takes its own prelims as categorical residents if a spot opens up.

But even for her, as highly-qualified as she was, it was a risky choice. Her situation should not be an example for anyone.
 
This Poster reminds me of Blonde Doctor and her story in last year's match. Does anyone know what she's up to? Did she end getting a categorical at Wash U?

She's posted here recently and stated that she took a 2 year Prelim position there.
She is actually at the University of Washington, not WashU. She took the two-year prelim spot and hasn't gotten a categorical spot yet.
 
I have been lurking on the SDN for years. Got some very useful info from here, really amazed by both the amount and value of the info that people are volunteering. I wanted to give back in some way, but this is the first true opportunity for that. The story goes like this – I am a non-US IMG (you have already guessed this), freshly matched into a prelim position. More than satisfied with my program, since it could be found in the topic ‘top 20….’.

My situation was even worse than that of the OP, but I am very confident that my creds could have safely bought me a categorical position in some of the typically IMG-friendly specialties. So, in a way, we had had a similar dilemma, and decided in similar fashion – taking all the risks of a prelim, for a miserable chance it offers. I don’t know if it is a matter of balls, delusional self-confidence, plain stupidity or mad devotion to surgery. It’s probably a combination.

Again, not sure if anybody will have any use of the things I wrote here. Maybe somebody in the moments of boredom wanted to know who are the poor souls taking preliminaries and what the hell they were thinking. Anyway, I have a feeling that when I come here after a year, the only use of the whole story will be for an occasional IMG with some idealistic illusions about the prelim as a golden opportunity.

And yes, it does kill your chances in the next year’s match.
 
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And yes, it does kill your chances in the next year’s match.

I don't understand the rationale behind this. When I was on my surgery rotation there was a prelim who was an attending back in Europe, spoke perfect English, an all around superstar in the OR, floor, clinic (he was an attending after all), and to top it off he was one of the coolest guys. Despite all that he didn't get offered a pgy1 categorical spot the next year even though he was willing to repeat his pgy1 as a categorical. So he found a pgy2 prelim at another program. Last I heard he didn't get a categorical spot at that program either but managed to find an open categorical pgy2 or pgy3 (forget which one) at some other program so he finally did get a categorical spot after bouncing around a couple of prelim years. So two different programs passed up on the superstar for a new grad. It's like having an all-star player on your team but cutting him for an unproven rookie. I've heard about the "damaged goods" theory about prelims but this was anything but that. We're talking about a superstar in his prime who could run a service 100% independently like any of the chiefs. In other careers experience is highly sought after and a big advantage but for some reason in medicine previous experience turns into a disadvantage. What's the reason for this?
 
I don't understand the rationale behind this. When I was on my surgery rotation there was a prelim who was an attending back in Europe, spoke perfect English, an all around superstar in the OR, floor, clinic (he was an attending after all), and to top it off he was one of the coolest guys. Despite all that he didn't get offered a pgy1 categorical spot the next year even though he was willing to repeat his pgy1 as a categorical. So he found a pgy2 prelim at another program. Last I heard he didn't get a categorical spot at that program either but managed to find an open categorical pgy2 or pgy3 (forget which one) at some other program so he finally did get a categorical spot after bouncing around a couple of prelim years. So two different programs passed up on the superstar for a new grad. It's like having an all-star player on your team but cutting him for an unproven rookie. I've heard about the "damaged goods" theory about prelims but this was anything but that. We're talking about a superstar in his prime who could run a service 100% independently like any of the chiefs. In other careers experience is highly sought after and a big advantage but for some reason in medicine previous experience turns into a disadvantage. What's the reason for this?

A few reasons, although not an all inclusive discussion by any means.

1 - Many programs feel that taking their prelims as categoricals too ften reflects poorly on the program. There is a stigma that taking too many prelims suggests you are unable to attract good/great/outstanding candidates out of the blocks.

2 - There can be the appearance that the program is running a "hidden pyramidal program" at the junior level ranks.

3 - Services already have a chief. Having an intern who "can run a service 100% independent like a chief" (or thinks they can) is not an asset. Taking someone who has been an attending already can have a really tough time adjusting to life at the bottom of the totem pole. Some might not, but the risk is still pretty big. In large part, a good intern is someone that is organized and can follow instructions and do the grunt work. An intern who tries to do too much without running things up the chain when appropriate is a liability.
 
The problem is "untraining" him from how he did things in his home country and "re-training" him for how they do it at his program. Kind of a "can't teach an old dog new tricks" type of mentality. Not saying it's right or wrong, but many programs don't want to deal with someone who is set in their ways or may be too independent (what if as an 'intern' he makes a decision beyond 'intern' level and something adverse happens? who calls the shots?) or too differently trained to meld well into the program. Not to mention the awkwardness between him and his classmates when they realize they are on completely different levels.
 
I don't understand the rationale behind this.

I am not sure about the rationale, this is from the experience of a fairly large number of IMG prelims (FMGs crazy enough to chase surgery make a very small community, where many people get to know each other). Don't get me wrong - I am not complaining. I know the rules, and I am playing the game. With a solid experience in Europe, I can tell you that there is no country among them which has its paid training spots open to foreigners as much as the US. Finally, although this is certainly not my goal, a hypothetical prelim intern who has to return home and finish his/her training there after failing to secure a categorical is still in a huge gain - a valuable experience and opportunity to learn, while still getting paid for that.

We're talking about a superstar in his prime who could run a service 100% independently like any of the chiefs.
Well, this might be an asnwer to your question. He might have come up with an idea to use his 'abilities'. It is amazing how surgical teams throughout the world and in hugely different cultural and technological settings have some strikingly similar features. Being highly hierarchical is one being almost universally present.

The problem is "untraining" him from how he did things in his home country and "re-training" him for how they do it at his program. Kind of a "can't teach an old dog new tricks" type of mentality.

A PD interviewing me brought this up: you know kid, we are looking for foreign surgeons who are already trained, and I have already a ****load of them waiting for a spot. Why should I take you instead of them, they can do stuff for us, without me having to waste my time on teaching them? I tried to use your argumentation (although my language skills did not allow me to use the colorful idiom), but ranked them at the bottom of my list.
 
Everyone's story is different, and unfortunately that story will predetermine your chances of success in obtaining a categorical position. My story was simple-- being from the East Coast, I only applied to programs east of Chicago. In February last year my husband was essentially transferred to Seattle-- after program rank lists were already in, not to mention after application deadlines! My PD here was very gracious and genuinely interested in making my personal situation work, and she offered me the two-yr prelim position. So, on ERAS, I ranked the 2-yr prelim first, with all of the (categorical) programs I'd interviewed at afterwards.

When I showed up at UW for intern orientation, I was admittedly very sensitive about being perceived as a sub-par intern (primarly from other residents, less so from attendings). I was also afraid that people would secretly think I wasn't very devoted to surgery, or to my career, since I was willing to "jeopardize" it in such a way. Orientation is tough for prelims-- whereas everyone else is celebrating having "arrived," having a place where they will belong, being taken out by senior residents/attendings, you sort of feel stateless. Like the Palestinians of post-graduate medical education.

But I have had a fabulous experience here so far. I think UW is uniquely open-minded regarding its prelims. For starters, when you get the inevitable "why didn't you match?" questions with each new set of attendings/seniors, my story was actually extremely well-received. In terms of operative experience, there is no difference-- I logged 113 cases last year, which is above our average. In terms of schedule,
all prelims, both designated and non-designated, have slightly different schedules here from the categoricals, but they try to closely approximate the 2-yr prelims' schedules to categorical ones. And honestly, many of the differences are in our favor, as I got to rotate through subspecialties which categorical residents did not, and as a result have a very useful knowledge base which they do not have.

I will not lie though-- no matter what the circumstances that cast you into this particular boat are, there is an ever-present overhanging cloud of anxiety about your ultimate "dispo." You are, like it or not, basically on a 1-year-long (or two, in my case) sub-i. You have to always be on your toes. You are always being evaluated, much as you were as a 4th yr med student trying to impress. No matter what happens to me, if I stay at UW or have to go somewhere else, I will *never* forget what this feels like.

I'm not sure if I'm a great position to give advice about how to succeed as a prelim, as I don't know if I'll be a success story or not, but the first year went well. Firstly, I'd say that the previous advice to be indistinguishable from the categoricals is incorrect. You should try to be better than they are. In certain areas where they can slack off, you can't. You need to be more anal, more on top of things, more well-read, more X than they are. You should be better-prepared for clinic and the OR than they are. You should try to stand out amongst the crowd, such that people take notice.

Also important is to develop good rapports with attendings. This year I've become close with several attendings, just naturally due to normal interpersonal factors. I've had several people tell me that they want me to stay at this program and will advocate on my behalf for a position with the PD when it's appropriate. And, should things not work out here (after all, there might not even be a position to compete for, not to mention they could always select someone else), it's nice to have a lot of people who are willing to write letters and make calls for you.

So I think you should attempt to tick all the boxes. These are ideals and we all fall short, but the boxes are: 1) outstanding clinical performance-- each rotation's evaluation should be glowing; 2) solid opinion of your abilities and trustworthiness amongst senior residents; 3) good rapport with multiple attendings, achieved by being ultra-prepared for clinic and OR, as well as being a normal human being who can be fun to talk to; 4) assertive and confident, not afraid to advocate for your viewpoint, your diagnosis, your plan, etc while still accepting correction or being overridden gracefully; 5) good ABSITE scores-- at least better than most people in your program; 6) keep on your program director's good side.

I have had moments when thinking about this whole prelim thing where I feel it should almost be illegal. Why is it OK to offer residency positions that don't lead to board-eligibility? And the philosophy of many programs-- not mine, but many back in NYC at least-- to take poorly experienced FMGs who are very poor Match candidates (not just for Surgery, but for anything) and ask them to serve as functioning doctors in a high-stress, high-stakes field like surgery is a very bad idea. I took my job as a surgery intern very seriously. I know it's not the hardest or most important job in the hospital, but I still felt that I had a good measure of responsibility. There were many decisions made over the year, many procedures performed alone, many diagnoses that I had to make... I just feel it is criminal to take someone whom a program director would never in a million years train as their own resident, and expect them to take good care of their patients. And it's really leading that poor FMG on, too.

Anyway, let me know if anyone has any questions.
 
Oh trust me I am learning my lessons. It isn't so much about being passive and shy, it is about being in your face and abrasive that I cannot do. It took me sometime to realize, but it is really your confidence and guts the surgeons want to see displayed. And I get that.

I'm not sure I would say abrasive...
 
I would consider more "assertive" than "abrasive." Somewhat akin to what Edward James Olmos did with is role as Adama in the new BSG: Calm, but with some assertiveness. Totally brash wins nothing. If the crisis demands you have to be short for time, do it, but remember to smooth the feathers afterwards.
 
Awesome thread for all us surgeon wannabes,

Don't mean to hijack, but quick question.

What percentage (if you had to guess, cause obv there are no stats available on this) would you say are of prelims that get into a categorical position after 1-2 years?

Now, after scouring SDN and other forums online, my impression is that its only 10-15% (and even lower if you are IMG with visa issues).

Would you guys agree?

But some guy told me here in NYC that its as high as 50% in NYC area programs...??
 
Just a prelim success story - or maybe an IMG success story - I met a PGY2 prelim resident at JH where I did my elective as a student -- he finished med sch in Greece, cleared his usmle, got an unpaid position at Harvard doing some research in one of the hospitals's surgical departments, worked really hard, he spent total of 2 years there during which they started paying him a small stipend after 4 mths, got I think 12 publications (none were first author), got really good letters, landed a prelim spot at JH, after his first year, they offered him a 2nd yr prelim which was when I met him. Last I heard, he got into a PGY3 categorical in the east coast.
 
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