SUNY Upstate - Probation Alert

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SUNY Upstate in Syracuse is officially going under probation by the LCME. The current dean of the medical school has resigned today.

I wanted to alert the general pre-medical community about the recent developments. I myself attended this medical school and am now a resident. There's been much controversy over the last 2-3 years or so with much of the curriculum. In fact, a majority of last year's graduating class was accused of cheating on a mass scale. This was unprecedented for any U.S. medical school. It did make the news but it occurred during a time of major world news events, and this is why I believe it didn't make national news.

Let's see how this affects interview season...
 
Not yet, it was emailed to the entire Upstate Medical community by the President of the institution.
 
I have heard about this. Between Upstate, UTSA, and the crash and burn that was San Juan Bautista, it looks like the LCME is really cracking down. I'm just hopeful that all of the students involved in this mix up find their way without much trouble.
 
I have heard about this. Between Upstate, UTSA, and the crash and burn that was San Juan Bautista, it looks like the LCME is really cracking down. I'm just hopeful that all of the students involved in this mix up find their way without much trouble.

To be fair, UTSA and Upstate (if ture), are just on probation. Other schools have been on probation, fixed the problem(s), and were OK: Rosalind Franklin (their endowment got too low), GWU (for many, many stupid reasons, one of which--if I rememebr correctly--was because they did not have a student lounge), UMKC
 
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I'm on hold. Dang.
 
I'm on hold. Dang.


That's what they get for such putting stellar applicants like you and I on hold lol.

On a serious note, I'm sure this problem will be resolved and will only leave a blemish on the rep of the school that will be wiped off soon enough.
 
Thanks for sharing. As Brachyury said, other reputable schools have been put on probation before. Not the end of the world. Should be interesting to see what happens in the long term.
 
Thanks for sharing. As Brachyury said, other reputable schools have been put on probation before. Not the end of the world. Should be interesting to see what happens in the long term.

Long term? Same as the other schools that were on probation, nothing.

Short term? Students will choose other schools if they have the choice and they will go to Upstate if they have no choice.
 
Anyone have any theories about why so many schools are being placed on probation?

I think I heard that LCME inspects schools every 10 or so years. I guess that time has come for a lot of schools.
 
Anyone have any theories about why so many schools are being placed on probation?

I heard it's because they didn't fulfill the requirements for staying off probation. Could just be a rumor, though 🙄
 
Looks like my school's next accreditation survey isn't until 2016-2017, after I graduate. Looks like I won't have to worry about this nonsense (hopefully).
 
To be fair, UTSA and Upstate (if ture), are just on probation. Other schools have been on probation, fixed the problem(s), and were OK: Rosalind Franklin (their endowment got too low), GWU (for many, many stupid reasons, one of which--if I rememebr correctly--was because they did not have a student lounge), UMKC



If there is anything to take out of this thread, it is what brachyury said. Probation doesn't mean anything besides an embarrassment reputation-wise (which might shock some premeds, as this thread is witness to), as long as the problem is cleaned up - and it is cleaned up in 99% of cases. TCMC is also on probation and their funding issues seem be clearing up.
 
I think I heard that LCME inspects schools every 10 or so years. I guess that time has come for a lot of schools.

I heard it's because they didn't fulfill the requirements for staying off probation. Could just be a rumor, though 🙄
These are two completely unrelated comments.
Serenade, your comment would make sense if all the schools were on the same cycle. However, they're not
WUbear, it doesn't look like you read my question
 
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If there is anything to take out of this thread, it is what brachyury said. Probation doesn't mean anything besides an embarrassment reputation-wise .

I understand that this is an almost benign issue. Still, I'd be more concerned about accreditation issues than say US News rankings when decided what school to go to.
 
Schools have been too busy calculating how to increase their tuition as opposed to evaluating their administration and operations.
 
damn, now when I'm pissed at my school I can't say "I should've gone to upstate instead"
 
BTW, you shouldn't complain about group learning and interactive discussions. San Antonio got in trouble with LCME for being too lecture-based.

Sometimes, those discussion groups are a pain, but it's nice to be accredited.
 
I heard it's because they didn't fulfill the requirements for staying off probation. Could just be a rumor, though 🙄

I don't like your tone. Take it outside buddy

It's me raltima Wubear! I am just kidding 🙂
 
Long term? Same as the other schools that were on probation, nothing.

Short term? Students will choose other schools if they have the choice and they will go to Upstate if they have no choice.
Yes, I think nothing will happen. I meant by long term, what you meant as short term. And students who view Upstate as a last choice based on the probation status are stupid.
 
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The diversity issue comes up at small state schools that recruit only in-state applicants. Makes sense considering the areas they recruit from ARE mainly white. My school had to start a special post-bacc program in order to recruit minorities from out of state. So we have all in-state white students and our minority students are 99% out of state. It's very interesting. But they have to be in the program first in order to claim in-state residence.
 
Hmm.. I am actually scheduled to interview there for MD/PhD. Reconsider??

And students who view Upstate as a last choice based on the probation status are stupid.

Probation issue aside, I think the bigger issue with Upstate is the mass cheating that occurred recently with its graduating class. I'm not trying to get on an ethical soap box here, and I'm not accusing current Upstate students of being cheaters.

But you gotta wonder what PDs this year will think of Upstate applicants. Food for thought.
 
Probation issue aside, I think the bigger issue with Upstate is the mass cheating that occurred recently with its graduating class. I'm not trying to get on an ethical soap box here, and I'm not accusing current Upstate students of being cheaters.

But you gotta wonder what PDs this year will think of Upstate applicants. Food for thought.
Actually I think the probation issue is way way way more of a bigger issue than a 4th year course in medical informatics with an online test.
 
Probation doesn't mean anything besides an embarrassment reputation-wise (which might shock some premeds, as this thread is witness to), as long as the problem is cleaned up - and it is cleaned up in 99% of cases.

Hmm.. I am actually scheduled to interview there for MD/PhD. Reconsider??

facepalm.jpeg

how do I reeeech these keeeeeds?
 

wait, so you can go on probation solely due to class "diversity" rather than actually having issues with providing an effective education to your students? I puked in my mouth a little bit.
 
Actually I think the probation issue is way way way more of a bigger issue than a 4th year course in medical informatics with an online test.

I'm just guessing here, but I think problems with administration or the pre-clinical curriculum wouldn't hold back an applicant with a good step I score and solid clinical evals. But the same student that comes from a school that had a cheating scandal would make a PD think twice. This is just my speculation though.

Yeah I know it's a stupid blow-off class, but the fact is people were caught cheating. A lot of people.
 
facepalm.jpeg

how do I reeeech these keeeeeds?

3427_watch-1205-now.jpg

lmao.

How do I reach these kids? The reason that you think you can't get into college, is because you haven't been taught... How to cheat properly! How do you think white people always get ahead? Because we cheat all the time – I mean because they cheat all the time. [brings out a picture of Bill Belichick] This is Bill Belichick, coach of the New England Patriots. He's won three Super Bowls. How? He cheated. He even got caught cheating, and nobody cared. Bill Belichick proved that in America it's okay to cheat, as long as you cheat your way to the top! - Cartman
 
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facepalm.jpeg

how do I reeeech these keeeeeds?

Probation, by itself, doesn't mean one should think less of the school. The circumstances surrounding the probation could give one pause, however.
 
A puerto rico school loses LCME accrediation, not many people care. A SUNY school loses LCME accrediation? That's a pretty big deal. Doubt it will ever come to that but man, it would get interesting.
 
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wait, so you can go on probation solely due to class "diversity" rather than actually having issues with providing an effective education to your students? I puked in my mouth a little bit.
That is not the sole reason. From:http://www.wvva.com/story/15067008/marshall-med-school-on-accrediting-probation

"The committee listed 10 areas of partial or substantial noncompliance with accreditation standards in a June 15 letter that it sent to Marshall President Stephen Kopp notifying him of its decision. They include scholarship support that's well below the national mean and limited programs and practices to support student well-being."
 
I'm just guessing here, but I think problems with administration or the pre-clinical curriculum wouldn't hold back an applicant with a good step I score and solid clinical evals. But the same student that comes from a school that had a cheating scandal would make a PD think twice. This is just my speculation though.

Yeah I know it's a stupid blow-off class, but the fact is people were caught cheating. A lot of people.

None of the people were caught; everyone turned themselves in when asked about it (at least ~70% of the people taking the course). I could go into the course but that probably wouldn't be productive.

I was a bit hopeful that this would bring about a change in the currently inadequate administration, and was happy about Dean Scheinman resigning until hearing he was (temporarily) replaced by Dean Cleary's husband.
 
Good bye Update NY. Am sorry, it's Upstate NY COM. Am withdrawing my app effective immediately.
 
Good bye Update NY. Am sorry, it's Upstate NY COM. Am withdrawing my app effective immediately.

Well if you called it update in thesrcondary they prob wont want you anyway.
 
The majority of the pre-meds from my school end up matriculating there, I'm gonna have to keep this in mind, hope Upstate gets things worked out.
 
SUNY Upstate in Syracuse is officially going under probation by the LCME. The current dean of the medical school has resigned today.

I wanted to alert the general pre-medical community about the recent developments. I myself attended this medical school and am now a resident. There's been much controversy over the last 2-3 years or so with much of the curriculum. In fact, a majority of last year's graduating class was accused of cheating on a mass scale. This was unprecedented for any U.S. medical school. It did make the news but it occurred during a time of major world news events, and this is why I believe it didn't make national news.

Let's see how this affects interview season...

Hey Everyone,

My name is Sam - I am a current third year medical student here at SUNY Upstate. I serve as the student government president here and have a working knowledge of everything that is going on. Before I address the above post, I just want to say that SUNY Upstate is and will continue to be an inspiring place to go to medical school. The health care providers, faculty and students strive for excellence day in and day out, and there is a contagious enthusiasm for starting new initiatives and improving what already exists. We are all working together to address the concerns of the LCME, and I fully believe we will emerge from this as an even stronger institution than we already are.

If you have specific questions that you can't get straight answers to anywhere else, please feel free to e-mail me personally at [email protected].

In response to the above post, the LCME has only RECOMMENDED probation, and we will be appealing that recommendation this coming February. As an institution, we do not agree with all of their citations (hence the appeal). Also, it is worth mentioning here that their citations are not about the quality of medical education here, but instead are more related to administrative stuff. That isn't to say Upstate isn't taking these citations extremely seriously, but there is a difference - and prospective students should be aware of that difference. The medical education here is outstanding, and residency programs regularly tell Upstate how well the students are prepared to practice medicine!

Next, the cheating incident: The students accused went through full remediation. Those students were 4th year students, and they are now in residency programs across the country. The cheating accusations were only in regards to one course in the 4th year, and that course is also actively being modified and improved as students voiced their concerns about it and the faculty and deans here stepped up to the plate and addressed it.

I'll stop there for now, but we will be monitoring this thread and are happy to answer questions. Upstate is extremely transparent about both the outstanding parts of our program and those parts that need improvement.

Current applicants - come interview here and see firsthand what we are all about. I had other options for medical school, but I was blown away by the sincerity and dedication of the people I met on my interview day here 3 years ago and I haven't once regretted my decision to be a part of this community.

Hope this helps,
Sam
 
Good bye Update NY. Am sorry, it's Upstate NY COM. Am withdrawing my app effective immediately.

I have no idea about your stats / chances but it seems foolish to do this unless you already have an acceptance in the bag as you are literally throwing away 33$ primary fee + the secondary fee for no reason.
 
The people that already have acceptances/were using SUNY Upstate as a backup/don't really want to go there are probably going to withdraw their apps because they do not want to risk it. Especially if they have other options. Lets be real, it makes sense. If the school goes on Probation its on Probation, academic reasons or not. If it doesn't address the issues....bye bye accreditation.
 
The people that already have acceptances/were using SUNY Upstate as a backup/don't really want to go there are probably going to withdraw their apps because they do not want to risk it. Especially if they have other options. Lets be real, it makes sense. If the school goes on Probation its on Probation, academic reasons or not. If it doesn't address the issues....bye bye accreditation.

While the administration, faculty and students at Upstate are taking the LCME citations and recommended probation extremely seriously, it should be noted that the LCME has only ever stripped one medical school of accreditation. If anything, this process will make Upstate a stronger overall institution.

I remember when I applied to medical school and George Washington was on probation and it kind of scared me because I didn't really know what that meant. Upstate is not on probation right now - it has been recommended by the LCME but we are appealing in February. Even if we do end up on probation, it still sounds much scarier than it is.

If you are a prospective student interested in going to medical school at Upstate, please contact me personally ([email protected]) or anyone else at Upstate if you have questions about the LCME citations and what they mean.

It is good that this forum exists to notify applicants of recent happenings, but it would be a shame if any applicant was scared to come to Upstate because of lack of understanding of what the LCME recommendations actually entail. This is a special place. Our students are great and they do great things in their time here.

-Sam
 
Also, it is worth mentioning here that their citations are not about the quality of medical education here, but instead are more related to administrative stuff.

I understand that the problems are solvable, and I am still interested in Upstate. However, judging from this article, it seems to me that the problems might be a bit more than "administrative stuff," unless I am misinterpreting it.

It (cheating scandal) illustrated to them the curriculum committee did not have the authority to monitor and modify the learning environment,” Cleary said. Upstate has already started taking steps to address that issue, she said.
...
The LCME also was troubled by what it sees as a lack of consistency in some courses offered at Upstate’s Syracuse and Binghamton campuses. Cleary said those minor differences have existed for 30 years and were never cited before by the LCME. She said the accrediting group has been scrutinizing schools much more closely in recent years and making more recommendations of probation.
 
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