Supervise or Do Your Own Cases?

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BLADEMDA

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Which do you prefer? A day of supervision or a day doing your own cases?

What do most Residents envision doing after training? Is the day of the "stool sitting" MD/DO limited? Will Socialized Medicine mean supervision only?

Did anyone read the Wallstreet Journal today about Schwarzenneger's plan for his state? Something about a poster of his final movie stating JUDGEMENT DAY IS COMING- HEALTH CARE CAN NOT REMAIN THE SAME.

Blade

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I too prefer doing my own cases. But, I end up supervising more than 80% of the time. The way things are in the South it is tough to make dough in an MD/DO only model. Most Groups employ CRNA or AA's to increase productivity ($$).

Things are different out West and in the North in certain locations. You can do SOLO Anesthesia and make a good living at the same time.

Blade
 
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I too prefer doing my own cases. But, I end up supervising more than 80% of the time. The way things are in the South it is tough to make dough in an MD/DO only model. Most Groups employ CRNA or AA's to increase productivity ($$).

Things are different out West and in the North in certain locations. You can do SOLO Anesthesia and make a good living at the same time.

Blade
I supervise except when I am on call.
I definitly wish I could do my own cases all the time.
 
I do my own cases. I have never been to a place where they have nurse anesthetists. I prefer doing my own cases.
 
I do my own cases. I have never been to a place where they have nurse anesthetists. I prefer doing my own cases.

Maybe this has been covered before, but how is it possible to bill for and get reimbursed for enough to get by doing your own cases? Lower standard of living, better payor mix? I'm sort of under the impression that what drives high salaries in this field is being able to bill for multiple cases simultaneously and that it'd be really hard to survive just billing for one case at a time.
 
Maybe this has been covered before, but how is it possible to bill for and get reimbursed for enough to get by doing your own cases? Lower standard of living, better payor mix? I'm sort of under the impression that what drives high salaries in this field is being able to bill for multiple cases simultaneously and that it'd be really hard to survive just billing for one case at a time.

you can more than get by doing your own cases.. yeah some cases are better than others but if there is a fair rotation of who does the least paying cases.. and everyone gets a crack at doing the primo cases.. everyone should do well.. Where I am there arent any slackers... everyone works.. thats how we make a living.. if you are not physically doing cases.. you are NOT making money.. Period.. there arent any bosses. who sit in the office and make schedules 9 hours a day and get a full time salary. the boss.. is in his room doing cases.. and does his boss stuff via a cell phone in the OR. I took 7 days off last month.. thats prolly 30 cases that i did not bill for..
 
Doing own cases vs. supervising 4 rooms? I would much prefer my own cases.
 
Prefer doing my own cases which I occasionally do while on call. Most of the time, though I am supervising 3-4 rooms. At the hospital where I work, the MDs do ALL the regional including spinals and epidurals. CVPs/PAs are also the realm of the physician. This is how all of South Jersey operates - the ACT model. Go to North Jersey though, and it's all MD only practices. Weird....
 
Maybe this has been covered before, but how is it possible to bill for and get reimbursed for enough to get by doing your own cases? Lower standard of living, better payor mix? I'm sort of under the impression that what drives high salaries in this field is being able to bill for multiple cases simultaneously and that it'd be really hard to survive just billing for one case at a time.

Here in San Diego, there are very few jobs for a CRNA. You can work at the university, or at Kaiser (both of which I think would suck). There is a group called ASMG and they cover MOST of the hospitals in town and they are an all MD group, and I think they do very well. In fact, I think they have been sued (and won) a few times for monopoly type lawsuites because they have such a large share of the market.
 
Here in San Diego, there are very few jobs for a CRNA. You can work at the university, or at Kaiser (both of which I think would suck). There is a group called ASMG and they cover MOST of the hospitals in town and they are an all MD group, and I think they do very well. In fact, I think they have been sued (and won) a few times for monopoly type lawsuites because they have such a large share of the market.

What do you think of Arnold's health care plan? He is more "left" than most Democrats on this issue. Will MD's leave California due to the MD tax?

As for solo MD Anesthesia in San Diego I am not suprised at all. In cities where you bill 4-5 times Medicare and collect it on more than 30% of your patients the $$$ allow MD/DO only care.

However, in places where private pay is less than 20% it is extremely difficult to do all your own cases. Medicare/Medicaid reimburses too poorly for an MD only model-even in California. Thus, it is the private payers that support the load of our current model. Remember, more of these private paying patients will join Medicare each year (our country is aging) and more are likely to join low paying plans (like the Gov. Schwarzenneger wants) in the future. How much longer will the private payers keep shelling out 5 times Medicare in San Diego?


Blade
 
However, in places where private pay is less than 20% it is extremely difficult to do all your own cases. Medicare/Medicaid reimburses too poorly for an MD only model-even in California.
Blade

you are talking out of your arse as usual...

california most practices are md only..

we do ok financially. but we dont have a top heavy situation where 3 people are watching 8 people work and make a lions share of the money. eat what ]you kill baby..
 
As a resident, i do all my own cases. When i graduate ill be doing a fellowship so then im sure ill end up doing my own cases again.

As for NJ being suppressed ACT...Well not really.


Cooper, lady of lourdes, some of the viruta hospitals, deborah (plus more) use CRNAs in the ACT practice to full scope in many instances (including PA, CVP, Spinals and Epidurals). So really, thats not the case everywhere in So. Jersey.

North Jersey has a tun of ACT practices as well. Just off the top of my head all the Robert Wood Johnston hospitals use CRNAs as do a few others.

Everywhere there is variation.

Prefer doing my own cases which I occasionally do while on call. Most of the time, though I am supervising 3-4 rooms. At the hospital where I work, the MDs do ALL the regional including spinals and epidurals. CVPs/PAs are also the realm of the physician. This is how all of South Jersey operates - the ACT model. Go to North Jersey though, and it's all MD only practices. Weird....
 
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you are talking out of your arse as usual...

california most practices are md only..

we do ok financially. but we dont have a top heavy situation where 3 people are watching 8 people work and make a lions share of the money. eat what ]you kill baby..

I know California is MD/DO SOLO primarily. CRNA's know that as well and many CRNA's can't find work in California because MD's are willing to work there for about 20- 30% more than CRNA pay. Thus, the market dictates MD/DO instead of ACT. But, will Schwarzennegger's health care plan change that? Will a shift to even more Medicare/Medicaid in California open up that market to CRNA's? Plus, a tax on MD/DO's?

Again, my comment about the private paying patients supporting the MD/DO ONLY model is correct in many locations. In California more MD/DO's are willing to work in hospitals where the payer mix is not the best as Independent Practitioners. A situation not common in many other parts of the country.

Blade
 
Cooper, lady of lourdes, some of the viruta hospitals, deborah (plus more) use CRNAs in the ACT practice to full scope in many instances (including PA, CVP, Spinals and Epidurals). So really, thats not the case everywhere in So. Jersey.

.

A CRNA placing a PA catheter is very rare.... fortunately!
 
Depends on where you are. In Florida and California maybe.

RMH,

I allow my CRNA's to float S-G catheters under direct supervision. No big deal. This thread is about two issues 1) Supervision vs. Doing Own Cases and 2) impact of Schwarzeneger's health care plan to Anesthesiology/Medicine.

Blade
 
Those of you guys who supervise, what do you do when not "actively" supervising, ie when things are on auto-pilot, nothing is beeping at you, you other pt is ok, etc? Go get coffee? Read jnl articles?

Also, how much of this tradeoff is in your control? Say I want to do all my own cases on M,W,F - can I supervise on T and R? I'm guessing that wouldn't be my call, but just checking,

MSI
 
Those of you guys who supervise, what do you do when not "actively" supervising, ie when things are on auto-pilot, nothing is beeping at you, you other pt is ok, etc? Go get coffee? Read jnl articles?

Also, how much of this tradeoff is in your control? Say I want to do all my own cases on M,W,F - can I supervise on T and R? I'm guessing that wouldn't be my call, but just checking,

MSI

There is very little down time. When I was supervising I was placing blocks, pre-op'ing pts, taking care of pts in the PACU, giving breaks, making pain rounds, the list goes on. I rarely sat down until the end of the day.
 
There is very little down time. When I was supervising I was placing blocks, pre-op'ing pts, taking care of pts in the PACU, giving breaks, making pain rounds, the list goes on. I rarely sat down until the end of the day.

Same here........I don't know where these practices exist where the anesthesiologists are sitting around in the lounge all day. Perhaps in academia.
 
Same here........I don't know where these practices exist where the anesthesiologists are sitting around in the lounge all day. Perhaps in academia.

Exactly!

I do remember my attendings (some of them) sitting around quite a bit but I just assumed it was easy supervising residents, as opposed to crna's.

I have not seen one private group were the anesthesiologist just sit around in the lounge. The majority of my partners would rather do their own cases b/c that was the easy job for the day. Supervising was busy.
 
RMH,

I allow my CRNA's to float S-G catheters under direct supervision. No big deal. This thread is about two issues 1) Supervision vs. Doing Own Cases and 2) impact of Schwarzeneger's health care plan to Anesthesiology/Medicine.

Blade

Blade,

Since you opened this up a bit more, I can comment on our govenor's plan for healthcare - but, obviously not on the supervision/own case issue.

I'm in N CA & as I said before, I've never worked nor seen a CRNA in the hospitals in which I'm an OR pharmacist - so I'm just familiar with the MD/DOs.

Our state is suffering, as are many border states, from many issues which stretch the healthcare dollars. We have lots & lots of low income/illiterate/illegal & legal immigrants. Don't get me wrong - those are not necessarily all together, but separately they impact our healthcare system. They tend to use the emergency services more, don't know nor find it difficult to utilize access to wellness programs (prenatal care, diabetic & htn monitoring, nutrition, ETOH & tobacco education, etc.) You all know this, of course.

But, we have the dichotomy here of a large insurance industry & HMO influence along with significant small employers (<10 employees) & large employers who are protected from providing benefits by working their employees less than the hours which are legally required for benefits.

So - what has happened with healthcare is - some hospitals have closed, ERs are overburdened & often don't get paid, but can't turn folks away (VMC has a wait time commonly of 4-5 hours), some hospitals like one of the ones I work at won't take trauma at the ER (unless the trauma ER locally is on bypass) because that would mean a likely admmit & possible OR case which may or may not get paid & in some areas - some providers won't take MediCal at all (my husband is a dentist - in Santa Clara County, there is no dentist currently which will take MediCal - the reimbursement is too low).

Will the govenor's plan work? I dont know & I honestly don't think it will pass as its written. But, it has brought up very good & healthy debate about some of the issues some people haven't been aware of.

First - it requires insurers & HMOs to spend 85% of their dollars on healthcare. In CA, that has not been the case. We have huge beautiful buildings in most large cities owned by health insurance companies, their CEO's make tons of money, yet they'll deny Xeloda for breast ca. Might they decrease reimbursement for you since they'll have to spend 85% on claims - thats a hard one to guess. They already limit who & what they are willing to spend their $$s on.

The plan requires employers to provide health insurance for everyone. Now this one is a burden for my husband. He employs 4 people & has never been able to afford to purchase health insurance for them (my job provides it for us). So - it appears to be a burden, but - farther down the list of things - he gets a break on his FICA contributions, with <10 employees he can join a pool & just contribute in which his employees then join & choose how much they want to spend....then there is that whole 2% tax because he is a doctor (4% for hospitals), but there is as yet an unnamed tax break for providers. Its hard, honestly, to sort out how this will affect us, but our taxes are huge here because we have to underwrite all this under & non-insured population.

The big pool of $ contribution is expected to be from business who employ 10 or >employees who do not provide insurance for everyone. They must either provide insurance or pay an "in lieu of" fee of 4% into this pool of coverage. So - you have your Target, Walmart, grocery baggers, part-time & seasonal workers at Macy's, restaurants & other employers who work their people just under the legal limit of hours for benefits now can access insurance & part of it is paid by this 4% tax on large employers who use this method to get out of paying benefits. I expect there will be some push to find a loophole in this.

What will this do to you folks? I don't know. My husband thinks it will be a mixed blessing for dentists. It probably won't increase the # of providers in his field who take MediCal because they will only pay for pulling teeth - not many dentists want to do that without putting in a restoration. It won't pay for crowns, inlays, onlays, etc.. He is worried about the taxes part, but it is not yet clear how that will play out. He won't go anywhere since he's got thousands invested in his business, but anesthesia is more mobile & has more flexible models......so perhaps it will change that.

From our "lounge" discussions in the OR, none of the physicians say they are going anywhere - they stay for lots of reasons & as I said - we're already taxed heavily. If this tax just "shifts" from one place to the next, no problem - thats hard to predict since the details are scarce. But - they wouldn't share their private decisions with me anyway.

The good thing is - it has sparked debate. Lots of people didn't realize how few $s are spent by the insurance industry here on actual claims nor did they realize how many providers have closed or won't take MediCal because of reimbursement. I'm not sure the general public understands how beneficial in the long run it is to pay for diabetic to get regular care rather than slowly treat the effects as they come emergently (amputating a foot or providing care for a stroke...).

Sorry for the long post, but those are my thoughts as a Californian with a provider SO & the governor's plan. I don't think it will happen the way he's got it designed, yes- he's very left...probably not as left as some of our Dems, but far moreso than Reps (after all - he's going after business to underwrite most of this - very antiRep!) - but...it has sparked great debate here on healthcare, who has the "right" to it, who suffers for the lack of it, etc...he can do this since he's got nothing to lose - except perhaps a Senate seat😉.
 
Go to North Jersey though, and it's all MD only practices. Weird....

Not too weird.. the insurance mix is much better there prolly> infact i am almost positive it is.
 
Not too weird.. the insurance mix is much better there prolly> infact i am almost positive it is.

Newark, Trenton.....a better insurance mix?!? I can assure you that it most definitely is NOT.
 
Same here........I don't know where these practices exist where the anesthesiologists are sitting around in the lounge all day. Perhaps in academia.

I work in the mountain west. We have a mostly-supervision model and I can tell you there is usually little sitting around time. There is almost always a labor epidural, intubation, PACU issue, pre-admission eval, etc. to be done.

I do really like supervision for doing regional anesthesia. You can just about always (except if pt is late to hospital) get the block in and have it set up before going to the room, and even do touch-up blocks if necessary.

It's also nice for airway problems. You usually have two sets of hands for airway management, and you can usually get another MD in to help.
 
It's also nice for airway problems. You usually have two sets of hands for airway management, and you can usually get another MD in to help.

This brings up something that I never thought about. When I was supervising I was routinely covering airways issues. Now that I am in an all MD group, I have not had to respond to help out anyone in an airway issue since I started in this group. I have been here for 3 years and not one airway issue.

It makes one think.
 
What do you think of Arnold's health care plan?

Blade

I don't know much about it, but I spoke to a republican MD anesthesiologist who is very involved with politics (I think his name was Bob Hertzka) and he said that the bottom line to Arnold's plan is to bring more federal goverment money to the state. I like that idea.
 
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