Surgeons and marriage

[HopelessMS]

Surgeons

A divorce lawyer revealed the top 5 professions a woman should avoid in a spouse in a now-viral TikTok

In general, she noticed that men in these professions tended to be more "narcissistic" and "controlling." "They're gods in their professions," she said.

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[DarkBluMage]

Interesting. I think if you marry someone that’s more family oriented than job oriented then things would be different.

 

[RunsOnCaffeine]

Dang, I'm military and surgery. Oh well

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Pre-nup before being tied up.

 

[threepwood]

I feel like a marriage counselor would be a better source of information on this subject than a divorce lawyer lol

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Major case of sampling bias lol

 

[deleted1100659]

simple solution, before marriage you should get a prenup 99% of the time. You can make it fair to both person, and if divorce happens theres no arguing, no long drawn out court battles, no need 20-30k in lawyer fees.

If someone ever tells you "if you love me you, wont need a prenup" then run.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Prenup only covers what you had going into the marriage.

If you get married early in life and you’re able to build a mini-fortune as a married person, I don’t think any prenup will help.

 

[Proudfather94]

Couple of things. Prenuptial agreements are not at good as they use to be. Judges in the US get way too much power and can basically go "I know you two made a legal agreement but I don't like them so I'm throwing it out." And your SOL.

I would get married if the partner you are marrying is someone who you've known since childhood/adolescence or they are in the same tax bracket. I did number one, we met in high school and we're almost 30. She's made more money than me for like 6 years now so if she was after me for my doctor money she would be a terrible gold digger.

 

[sloop]

Couple of things. Prenuptial agreements are not at good as they use to be. Judges in the US get way too much power and can basically go "I know you two made a legal agreement but I don't like them so I'm throwing it out." And your SOL.

I would get married if the partner you are marrying is someone who you've known since childhood/adolescence or they are in the same tax bracket. I did number one, we met in high school and we're almost 30. She's made more money than me for like 6 years now so if she was after me for my doctor money she would be a terrible gold digger.

I recently got married and thought about a prenup (not a surgeon though). I did not wind up pursuing it for a few reasons. One of them was that it’s actually pretty expensive (at least on a fellow salary) to get a working prenup. Not only do you have to pay an attorney, but ideally your spouse should have adequate representation of their own. Prenups have been deemed unconscionable because one party lacked independent representation.

The other thing is that it’s often pretty logistically difficult to protect things like income with a prenup. Prenups work pretty well if you want to protect an inheritance or something, but it takes a lot of commitment to separate finances in a way that the prenup actually covers them. It’s not like you can really just say “my income is mine and yours is yours.” You basically have to keep your money in separate accounts. Which is fine until you get into a situation where you’re actually paying for stuff together or paying for something that both of you use.

Like, imagine you’re buying a house and both people are contributing to the mortgage even though the higher earner is contributing more. A lot of times, there is going to be a presumption that this is communal property. Or imagine that the higher earner pays for the car of the lower earner. Whose car is it?

I basically came to the conclusion that having an enforceable prenup was going to be expensive and would result in a strict division of assets that neither of us really wanted in the relationship. My wife earns significantly less than me and I don’t want her to have to live a significantly different lifestyle than I do. That inherently means I’m going to have to pay for some stuff that we can afford but she can’t individually. I felt like doing that was going to make any prenup very difficult to enforce.

Also, my wife supported me through applying to med school, med school itself, residency, and part of fellowship before we ever even got married. We dated for almost 10 years before getting married. As you said, that would be a lot of investment without any guaranteed payoff. I don’t think she’s after any money I might make.

 

[Proudfather94]

I recently got married and thought about a prenup (not a surgeon though). I did not wind up pursuing it for a few reasons. One of them was that it’s actually pretty expensive (at least on a fellow salary) to get a working prenup. Not only do you have to pay an attorney, but ideally your spouse should have adequate representation of their own. Prenups have been deemed unconscionable because one party lacked independent representation.

The other thing is that it’s often pretty logistically difficult to protect things like income with a prenup. Prenups work pretty well if you want to protect an inheritance or something, but it takes a lot of commitment to separate finances in a way that the prenup actually covers them. It’s not like you can really just say “my income is mine and yours is yours.” You basically have to keep your money in separate accounts. Which is fine until you get into a situation where you’re actually paying for stuff together or paying for something that both of you use.

Like, imagine you’re buying a house and both people are contributing to the mortgage even though the higher earner is contributing more. A lot of times, there is going to be a presumption that this is communal property. Or imagine that the higher earner pays for the car of the lower earner. Whose car is it?

I basically came to the conclusion that having an enforceable prenup was going to be expensive and would result in a strict division of assets that neither of us really wanted in the relationship. My wife earns significantly less than me and I don’t want her to have to live a significantly different lifestyle than I do. That inherently means I’m going to have to pay for some stuff that we can afford but she can’t individually. I felt like doing that was going to make any prenup very difficult to enforce.

Also, my wife supported me through applying to med school, med school itself, residency, and part of fellowship before we ever even got married. We dated for almost 10 years before getting married. As you said, that would be a lot of investment without any guaranteed payoff. I don’t think she’s after any money I might make.

I bombed the MCAT once and had a failed cycle so if she wasn't in it for me she would have ran lol. I would just advocate physicians to date physicians, plus you'll have really smart kids if you are single by the time you're a physician.

 

[DoctwoB]

This. Prenups only protect assets before marriage. So for Med students and residents unless you’re sitting on a fat inheritance there’s no point.

 

[Proudfather94]

This. Prenups only protect assets before marriage. So for Med students and residents unless you’re sitting on a fat inheritance there’s no point.

Do they help in no fault states if there is a penalty for something like infidelity in the prenup?

 

[SpoiledMilk]

A post-nup is a thing also if a pre-nup is not feasible.

 

[sloop]

This. Prenups only protect assets before marriage. So for Med students and residents unless you’re sitting on a fat inheritance there’s no point.

This is not exactly true. You can, at least sometimes and in some states, specify in a prenup how assets will be divided in the case of a divorce. The issue, as I mentioned, is how you’re actually going to make this enforceable.

Courts will generally throw out prenups if they make the determination of marital assets too complex. Part of the reason states often presume that property accumulated during marriage is marital property is that they want to avoid costly and burdensome proceedings where the court has to individually make a determination on which specific things are marital property and which are individual property. This is why just saying “everything gets divided in proportion to contribution” is often not good enough. The Court is going to get pissed off if you go in asking them to review all of your pay stubs and bills and decide what proportion of the property you’re entitled to. This is even worse if you’re paying the mortgage or whatever out of some sort of shared account.

The other thing is that courts will often throw out prenups if they’re determined to be too lopsided or unfair. This is referred to as an unconscionable agreement. If your prenup is going to leave your partner without any retirement funds or leave them dependent on some sort of social program, that’s often not going to fly.

My understanding is that it is sometimes possible to protect future assets with a prenup, but it can be very difficult to do this in practice.

 

[deleted1100659]

Prenup only covers what you had going into the marriage.

If you get married early in life and you’re able to build a mini-fortune as a married person, I don’t think any prenup will help.

Not true. You can include many things. You could waive the right to alimony, or have a specification for a limited term of alimony or amount. You can also specify property rights after marriage. They absolutely cover more than just premarital property otherwise there wouldnt be a point of one.

Interesting, there seems to be a lot of minsconceptions about them. They absolutely can cover most aspects of the marriage. It is not difficult to do this and prenups are highly enforceable.

Let me tell you this. I went through divorce as a resident and my divorce probably cost 80k in terms of house equity, lawyer fees, property loss, etc. I definitely did not come out on top.

Having a prenup is an investment, because everyone thinks they will be civil in a divorce. Divorce makes people bitter. Bitter people become vengeful. The typical divorce lawyer these days can be around 300 or more an hour. Guess how many hours a complicated/contentious divorce takes to complete? Depending on the state, can take well over a year. Some states even require lengthy seperate periods before you can even have a trial. Oh and theres things like discovery which will cost a fortune. A prenup can mitigate these costs.

I am an unfortunate expert in this topic.

 

[deleted1100659]

To further clarify, if a prenup is done the correct way, it is not commonly thrown out and very unlikely to not be enforced. Meaning:

1. Both parties have equal representation, which is only fair anyways and how it should be.
2. Both parties are coherent/capable of making the decision in their own best interest
3. There is no coercion
4. There is no misrepresentation of finances
5. It is not insanely unfair

The thing is, it doesnt matter about equitable distribution when it comes to a divorce trial and all that. One party can drag things a long and make them absolutely as miserable as much as they want to, in many states. If you end up going to court, you're going to spend boat loads of money.

 

[Proudfather94]

Not true. You can include many things. You could waive the right to alimony, or have a specification for a limited term of alimony or amount. You can also specify property rights after marriage. They absolutely cover more than just premarital property otherwise there wouldnt be a point of one.

Interesting, there seems to be a lot of minsconceptions about them. They absolutely can cover most aspects of the marriage. It is not difficult to do this and prenups are highly enforceable.

Let me tell you this. I went through divorce as a resident and my divorce probably cost 80k in terms of house equity, lawyer fees, property loss, etc. I definitely did not come out on top.

Having a prenup is an investment, because everyone thinks they will be civil in a divorce. Divorce makes people bitter. Bitter people become vengeful. The typical divorce lawyer these days can be around 300 or more an hour. Guess how many hours a complicated/contentious divorce takes to complete? Depending on the state, can take well over a year. Some states even require lengthy seperate periods before you can even have a trial. Oh and theres things like discovery which will cost a fortune. A prenup can mitigate these costs.

I am an unfortunate expert in this topic.

Sorry that happened, hopefully you recovered from the divorce quickly.

 

[deleted1100659]

Sorry that happened, hopefully you recovered from the divorce quickly.

It is what it is I suppose. It was not a fun experience but it was a learning experience. Money can be replaced, happiness can not be replaced.

I highly recommend prenups, but not with the wrong intentions. I think they should be done in a fair way, based on marital contributions- financial, time/effort put into relationship. The goal of a prenup isnt to make sure you get everything if the marriage fails, its to outline the rules in a worst case scenario, so if a divorce were to occur theres an agreement in place and reduced need to go back and forth and spend thousands of dollars on lawyer fees. If an agreement was clearly done in good faith, then likely it would be honored. While I advocate for a prenup, It should always be a fair one to both parties.