Surgery Observation?

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scflips14

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I want to be a surgeon, and I've watched surgery videos online but they're poor quality and I'm sure not a good substitute for the real thing. I want to observe surgeries now, so I can get a feel for the career and decide if this is what I really want to do. My college has no pre health committee or resources, so I'm pretty much on my own. There's a medium sized hospital very close to me, and a larger teaching hospital about 30 minutes away. Should I just email random doctors I find through Google? I have absolutely no connections to people in the medical field but I would really love an opportunity to observe surgery so any advice on how to accomplish this would be appreciated 🙂

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Call the hospital administration and ask if you could shadow the doctors for academic purposes.
 
From my experience, hospitals and doctors are sort of adamant when it comes to watching surgeries. I guess it's more of a secure/high sterile environment and they don't like the idea of having an audience? I've found it difficult to find doctors that allow me observe surgeries.
 
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Scribing was how I first got my foot in the door on surgeries. I'd make sure to talk to the docs I'd called for consults that day at the end of my shift "soooo...how's that lap chole we sent you? *winkwinknudgenudge*" and once I got to know them, I got some OR time. I think it's also easier on that front because they know that HIPAA and whatnot has been taken care of. For those, all I had to do was go talk to the patient and get consent. Since they were usually still in the ER when being consented for the surgery, and I was friends with the nurses, they'd give me the heads up, I'd slip in, and at the end of everything I'd just step up and throw my $0.02 in and it was no big deal.

Observation was also an option when I scribed for an ortho surgeon.

Otherwise, look for programs. I was lucky enough to find an established internship/shadowing program geared specifically towards premeds who wanted to see surgeries up close. There are often more opportunities than you'd think!
 
Walk into your nearest ortho, gen surg or plastics clinic with a letter of intent to shadow. They will almost certainly let you. Hospitals have a ton of red tape and will just give you the run around until you give up.

Full disclosure: the OR is boring as heck, standing for 8-10 hours without a break isn't fun and the nurses and assistants will rip your head off if you stand in the wrong spot, touch anything, or get too close to touching anything. After one day in the OR I went back to watching youtube surgeries.
 
Yea to be honest watching surgery involves standing in the OR watching a monitor that is playing the surgery. You cant really get too close to see anything in real life, so basically you end up back where you started watching you tube surgeries, but now in an OR.

If you do really want to though, the best path is to shadow an anesthesiologist. That way you get to see a diverse group of surgeries while shadowing, and the anesthesiologists are way more free to talk since they are just watching the monitors/adjusting things and not doing surgery. Also for most surgeries the area where the anesthesiologist sits (behind the patients head) is the best spot to view from since its not sterile and close to the action.

Look up a local academic hospital, find the list of their anesthesiologists, and start making cold calls or emails (direct emails to the doc are way better if their email address is available). It definitely requires some sleuthing and leg work though. Good luck and feel free to PM me if you want more specific advice!

*if you're curious about the day to day life of surgeons outside the OR, I've had much better results asking surgeons to shadow during clinic hours. This can also lead to eventual OR shadowing
 
If you want to see surgery, you can go at it via the surgeons, or via the nurses. (I think if you try to go through anesthesia, they will be more interested in showing you their machines and other stuff on their side of the curtain. Just my experience, YMMV.)

They don't teach OR nursing in nursing school. It is such a specialized area of nursing, and it is generally learned on the job, through extended orientation periods that can easily last 6+ months. So, to even get anyone who knows what it is that goes on down in the OR, lots of nursing students and new hires come down for observation experiences.

If you want to see surgery up close and personal, one thing you can do is express interest in OR nursing. Call the local hospitals, get the names and email addresses or phone numbers of the OR directors or the RN educators for the OR. Write to them (preferably) or call, and express your interest in OR nursing/scrubbing. Tell them that you are considering career options (not untrue!) and that you'd like to shadow a scrub or circulator for a day. You may be pleasantly surprised at how much you can get just by asking nicely.

You may have to meet some requirements for the hospital, with regard to vaccinations, TB testing, and/or clearances. But once that paperwork is squared away, you can almost certainly find opportunities to shadow.

EDIT: How close you can get and what you can do depends a lot on the staff actually in the room that day. You will probably not be allowed to scrub in and stand actually at the table... there may just not be room for that. But I always made a point of getting students / shadowers up on a standing stool by anesthesia, or else at the foot, so that they could see the incision. I'd also try to narrate for them what they were seeing, why we took certain kinds of precautions, what various kinds of instruments were called and why they were used. There are some OR nurses who were more likely to put you in a corner and tell you not to touch anything, but hopefully, if you communicate well about what you are hoping to accomplish with your shadowing experience, the OR educator or director won't put you in with one of the grumpy nurses.
 
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I was able to shadow a surgeon at a community hospital and got pretty close. From what I've seen, a lot of physicians in smaller communities LOVE to have people shadow them. They seem to miss teaching. Also, it's easier to get through all the bureaucratic rigmarole if you look to shadow where you volunteer. That way you have all the paper work in already.

If you call a physician's office, make sure to be very, very, very polite to the receptionist. She'll decide whether to actually give your resume/letter to the doc.
 
I want to be a surgeon, and I've watched surgery videos online but they're poor quality and I'm sure not a good substitute for the real thing. I want to observe surgeries now, so I can get a feel for the career and decide if this is what I really want to do. My college has no pre health committee or resources, so I'm pretty much on my own. There's a medium sized hospital very close to me, and a larger teaching hospital about 30 minutes away. Should I just email random doctors I find through Google? I have absolutely no connections to people in the medical field but I would really love an opportunity to observe surgery so any advice on how to accomplish this would be appreciated 🙂

I now run a pre-med shadowing program in conjunction with a neighboring undergrad institution. We have 15 new pre-meds each semester spending time with our surgeons. I'm just going to outline my orientation talk for them...

#1 Remember that you are applying to medical school, not surgical school. The OR is a fantastic place. It is one of my favorite places on the planet to be. But, it is only a small part of what surgeons, never mind physicians do. I would never discourage someone who is excited about being in the OR from being in the OR, but if possible, you really want to spend time with a surgeon in clinic, the OR and on the wards. That will give you a much better appreciation of what goes into being a surgeon. It will also give you a lot more to digest and think about going forward which can pay dividends on secondaries.
#2 The OR can be a boring place. Well performed surgery is not exciting. Things tend to get 'more exciting' when things are going wrong. Be prepared for this. When things are slow, observe the nursing staff, observe the anesthesiologist, talk to people in the OR if it feels appropriate.
#3 Do not ask for a letter of recommendation.

How to find opportunities, clerkship directors/coordinators are your friend. If there is a medical school near you or a residency, find out who is on the administrative side and e-mail them. If it is hard to figure out who the people are, shoot me a PM and include where you are and I'll try to give you a hand. Private physicians are going to be hit or miss. There are a ton of private guys that don't mind having a random pre-med hanging around. But, they also don't have much incentive/interest in doing the paperwork to make it so that you can actually shadow. Academic institutions on the other hand usually have established, albeit not well publicized, pathways.

From my experience, hospitals and doctors are sort of adamant when it comes to watching surgeries. I guess it's more of a secure/high sterile environment and they don't like the idea of having an audience? I've found it difficult to find doctors that allow me observe surgeries.

This is generally not true. There is nothing particularly special about being in the OR from a credentialing standpoint. Scrubbing into cases, that is a different story, but being in the OR? Generally no different than seeing patients on the floor.
 
I now run a pre-med shadowing program in conjunction with a neighboring undergrad institution. We have 15 new pre-meds each semester spending time with our surgeons. I'm just going to outline my orientation talk for them...

#1 Remember that you are applying to medical school, not surgical school. The OR is a fantastic place. It is one of my favorite places on the planet to be. But, it is only a small part of what surgeons, never mind physicians do. I would never discourage someone who is excited about being in the OR from being in the OR, but if possible, you really want to spend time with a surgeon in clinic, the OR and on the wards. That will give you a much better appreciation of what goes into being a surgeon. It will also give you a lot more to digest and think about going forward which can pay dividends on secondaries.
#2 The OR can be a boring place. Well performed surgery is not exciting. Things tend to get 'more exciting' when things are going wrong. Be prepared for this. When things are slow, observe the nursing staff, observe the anesthesiologist, talk to people in the OR if it feels appropriate.
#3 Do not ask for a letter of recommendation.

How to find opportunities, clerkship directors/coordinators are your friend. If there is a medical school near you or a residency, find out who is on the administrative side and e-mail them. If it is hard to figure out who the people are, shoot me a PM and include where you are and I'll try to give you a hand. Private physicians are going to be hit or miss. There are a ton of private guys that don't mind having a random pre-med hanging around. But, they also don't have much incentive/interest in doing the paperwork to make it so that you can actually shadow. Academic institutions on the other hand usually have established, albeit not well publicized, pathways.



This is generally not true. There is nothing particularly special about being in the OR from a credentialing standpoint. Scrubbing into cases, that is a different story, but being in the OR? Generally no different than seeing patients on the floor.



Ah. I just know from experience that one of the hospitals I watched surgeries at had previously disallowed shadowing of surgeries because they had problems with students in the past not behaving properly in the OR.
 
Ah. I just know from experience that one of the hospitals I watched surgeries at had previously disallowed shadowing of surgeries because they had problems with students in the past not behaving properly in the OR.

Ah yes, that does happen from time to time. Not only in the ORs, but everywhere there are patients. Sucks for future students 🙁.
 
Ah. I just know from experience that one of the hospitals I watched surgeries at had previously disallowed shadowing of surgeries because they had problems with students in the past not behaving properly in the OR.

That's unfortunate. What did they do?
 
OK, watching surgeries certainly does not have to be boring!
This was something that a lot of my fellow interns at the surgical shadowing program said, and I never understood it until I found out that they were simply sitting in the corner watching the back of the surgeons' heads. Here are some ways to avoid that:

1. SHOW INTEREST. Perhaps it was because I was at an academic hospital for much of my OR shadowing, but generally the more interest you show, the more people are willing to spend their time talking to you about what's going on. The trick is to manage to show interest without annoying anyone (particularly the attending...they should basically not have to acknowledge your existence until they choose to on their own). Don't talk to the people who are busy...find someone, anyone, who is not busy at the moment - the med students, equipment techs, the circulating nurse, etc. - and ask them questions that show you've been paying attention. Ask them about their specific roles, how their equipment works, what they're doing with this patient that's different from other patients and why the difference?
2. Pick a good spot. This largely depends on the nurses, tbh, but if you've been friendly and polite to them from the beginning and shown them that you understand the concept of sterility, most of them (some are unbendingly overzealous), and you ask before picking a decent spot, you'll usually be OK. One thing I always did was to find something nonsterile and stand with that...it's space that was already filled, already being avoided by those who are scrubbed in, and therefore you are not adding inconvenience, and often the path in front of you is a bit clear. If you're friendly with the anesthesiologist, this is cake - they'll set you up behind the curtain. But other good options can be the tower at the foot where all the electronic/vacuum lines come in, or (and this was my personal favorite) lightboxes. If your surgeons are using headlamps, there will be a lightbox only a few paces behind them. I would stand right on its base, which let me look right over the surgeon's shoulder (at a bit of a distance), in a known non-sterile area, with nice, warm air blowing over me from the lamp (ORs are cold).
3. Help if asked, but never until asked. You don't know what's going on or how to do most of the tasks as well as anyone else in the room. However, from time to time you probably will be asked to do something simple (like get a warm blanket, or move the patient's floor bed out of the way, move a lightbox, unplug the surgeon's headlamp, etc.) Pay attention to what everyone does around you so that when they ask you for something simple like that, you can do it. This helps keep you in peoples' minds as someone who is paying attention and helpful; it makes them more likely to address you, ask about you, answer your questions, etc. down the road.
4. If all else fails, it's time to get a little devious/annoying. I stumbled upon this by accident, but it works more than you'd think. If you can't really see or find out what's going on...ask someone who doesn't know. Ask them questions that you would ask the surgeon, were they speaking to you...you'd be surprised how consistently people jump in when they hear someone giving a poor/incomplete/fumbling answer to something they know very well. Next thing you know, they're telling you about the surgery, telling you to get a better vantage point so you can see, etc.


Big hospitals are good because there are more people to talk to, but little ones can be great because you and the scrub nurse are the only people for the surgeon themselves to talk to, and they probably speak to the nurse every day. Mix it up, try different places and specialties and hospital types. You'd be surprised what you can see in the OR, if the circumstances work out. I had a group of ENT/Plastics residents, who had finished a neck dissection and were waiting for the attendings to come in to graft in some vessels, decide to quiz me on the anatomy of the neck, letting me close and pointing out different structures. For the rest of the surgery they would describe things to me (usually at least one resident was off the table since it was such a big surgery). I had a vascular attending who had people step aside for second before closing so I could step forward and see the graft they'd put in to bypass an aortic aneurysm. When I was friendly with the scrub nurses, they'd set aside gallbladders, spleens, colons, ribs, tumors, etc once they were out of the sterile field to allow me a closer look/touch. Etc., etc, etc. There is plenty to see as long as you don't give up on it for those few frustratingly dull ones (CT surg, ugh...so many people you'll never see anything or get close...just pick the brains of the pump tech. The pump is like 90% of heart surgery anyway, and it's all you'll be able to see).

And, as stated above, don't forget the rest of being a surgeon. If you shadow one, don't just stick to the OR. If they'll have you, go on rounds, go to clinic, go when they talk to the patient/family before/after the operation, etc. The interns will tell you how little the OR factors into their daily lives...believe them, and keep it in mind.
 
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That's unfortunate. What did they do?
I don't know about theirs, but apparently at our program someone once turned off equipment in the middle of an operation. They swore up and down that they had been told to turn it off, but...there were no issues for the patient, but that student did not continue in the program.

I myself once semi-accidentally messed with the Da Vinci during a surgery. They had sat me at the unused terminal to observe (!!!) and I was a bit nervous because my knees were right by the controls. I asked the Da Vinci tech what would happen if I bumped them and he said it was fine - even grabbed the handle and twirled it a bit to show it had no effect b/c I wasn't logged in and didn't have any instruments. He said it would just move a cursor instead and nobody could see it, so I should twiddle with it if I wanted. Anywho, partway through I did bump the handle, and it stayed in that position. So I grabbed it to move it back to the default position and noticed it twirling the cursor across the screen...so I moved it a bit more, to see what the movement was like. Well, turns out the tech was wrong and my cursor was dancing all over the surgeon's screen as well. He just barked 'stop that!' through the mic really loudly and I froze. Nobody else in the room knew what was going on and he never spoke to me again, but I felt horrible. After all, since nobody knew I'd talked to the tech, I probably just seemed like a massively egotistic premed who took it upon themselves to use the Da Vinci's controls in the middle of surgery with no idea what it would do. I've never felt so embarrassed in my life. :eggface:
 
I don't know about theirs, but apparently at our program someone once turned off equipment in the middle of an operation. They swore up and down that they had been told to turn it off, but...there were no issues for the patient, but that student did not continue in the program.

I myself once semi-accidentally messed with the Da Vinci during a surgery. They had sat me at the unused terminal to observe (!!!) and I was a bit nervous because my knees were right by the controls. I asked the Da Vinci tech what would happen if I bumped them and he said it was fine - even grabbed the handle and twirled it a bit to show it had no effect b/c I wasn't logged in and didn't have any instruments. He said it would just move a cursor instead and nobody could see it, so I should twiddle with it if I wanted. Anywho, partway through I did bump the handle, and it stayed in that position. So I grabbed it to move it back to the default position and noticed it twirling the cursor across the screen...so I moved it a bit more, to see what the movement was like. Well, turns out the tech was wrong and my cursor was dancing all over the surgeon's screen as well. He just barked 'stop that!' through the mic really loudly and I froze. Nobody else in the room knew what was going on and he never spoke to me again, but I felt horrible. After all, since nobody knew I'd talked to the tech, I probably just seemed like a massively egotistic premed who took it upon themselves to use the Da Vinci's controls in the middle of surgery with no idea what it would do. I've never felt so embarrassed in my life. :eggface:

Sorry, that is hilarious. I'm sorry that it happened to you, but it is still funny 😛.
 
Thank you all so much for your advice! I actually did apply to be a medical scribe, and I was told that they were impressed with my application but they didn't have any openings at the moment. I am supposedly going to get an interview when a spot opens up. I agree that I should shadow a surgeon outside the OR as well so I can get a more rounded view of what the job is actually like. Unfortunately, there is no medical school near me but I might try cold calling/emailing surgeons at the teaching hospital nearby, and maybe going to some clinics to ask for shadowing opportunities as well.
 
That's unfortunate. What did they do?

Not really sure. They did start to allow students to shadow again though. I guess that'll go on until something else bad happens. I think some of the OR folk were complaining about volunteers getting in the way/being annoying. I don't blame them; there isn't that much we can do to help out other than running to get supplies. And that is pretty difficult considering some of the people who have been there for multiple years say they still don't know where everything is.
 
I shadowed a couple of dermatologists and asked if they knew any plastic surgeons (odds are that they do know plastic surgeons because they refer patients often). Then I shadowed a plastic surgeon for a week per their recommendation.

I also had the opportunity to shadow an oral-maxillofacial surgeon for three weeks. While in the OR, I met vascular surgeons and ENT surgeons. When we were on surgery breaks I asked them for their business cards and then called them later to see if I could shadow them. All in all, I had over 250 hours of surgical shadowing to add to AMCAS.

When it comes to shadowing I have a couple of general thoughts:
1. Beggars CAN'T be choosers. I shadowed everyone who would let me shadow them, regardless of if it was a specialty I thought I was interested in.

2. Network with physicians while you shadow other physicians. That may sound greedy, but the physicians I shadowed were actually excited to refer me to their friends. A rheumatologist referred me to a pulmonologist to shadow who referred me to hem-onc. Don't be annoying by asking for their names, but after two days of shadowing a physician, I was comfortable asking them if they had friends who I could shadow.

3. As previous posters have mentioned, surgery shadowing is exactly what YOU make of it. Two double mastectomies that I watched were remarkable. I was right behind the surgeon and they were teaching me as they went, explaining the anatomy and what they were doing. Another surgeon wouldn't let me near the patient (and by near I mean within 10 feet) so it was impossible to see what they were doing. However, there was a TV screen that I could watch live surgery on. Being in the OR was an absolute pleasure and it was very difficult to get my foot in the door but once you do, you will not regret it.

Couple tips on HOW to get physicians to shadow: ask relatives if they have any surgeries coming up. If they do, ask to see if you can go to their appointment with them. At the appointment, the family member can say that you are interested in shadowing and blah blah. My step mom did this for me and her surgeon allowed me to shadow them for a week (I did NOT watch my step mom's surgery obviously). The oral maxillofacial surgeon worked with my PI on a research study and that is how I met him. You are doing things exactly right, getting a scribe job to start understanding hospital logistics. My only advice is to start with physicians you know: maybe your childhood physician or current PCP can help you find someone to shadow.

Ohh one final tip about academic centers: most academic health centers have fellowship programs. These fellowship programs have logistical coordinators that set up all of the medical school rotations, resident rotations, and fellow rotations for their division. For example, if X University has a Division of Derm, X university has a coordinator to organize all of X university's fellows, students, residents etc. Contact these coordinators because they will be able to tell you who to shadow and may even give you the names of a couple of their fellows, if you are very polite. And most of the time, these coordinators have emails that are listed on the website 🙂, often times the physician emails are hidden for privacy reasons.

One final thought: there is a difference between being persistent and being annoying. If after one or two emails a physician does not email you back, move on. And if a physician does not seem interested in telling you other shadowing opportunities, definitely don't push them. that seems like common sense, but it is harder to gage than you think.

Now, as you already mentioned, this takes a lot of persistence and work. I had a lot of cold calls and emails, like you. but in the end, it significantly paid off with over 500+ hours of shadowing (half of which were in the OR). I had WAY more hours than what was needed, but I found them to be extremely useful when I was reflecting and writing my personal statement and essays for medical schools. Good luck.
 
I just had the coolest thought. I bet this would look badass on an application. What if you were going into a surgery, and you asked that they purposely give you a small enough dosage of anesthetic so that you could be partially aware of the surgery, and watch them do the surgery on you? Haha this sounds so stupid but kind of cool.
 
I just had the coolest thought. I bet this would look badass on an application. What if you were going into a surgery, and you asked that they purposely give you a small enough dosage of anesthetic so that you could be partially aware of the surgery, and watch them do the surgery on you? Haha this sounds so stupid but kind of cool.

You'd probably pass out
 
Is there some kind of drug that can prevent you from passing out?
I'm not sure why that would look badass on an application...it doesn't help you in terms of clinical exposure, really. Remember, they're also evaluating decision making skills. "Put body through higher than usual level of stress during surgery and also made the surgeon change up their usual system simply for the sake of being 'cool'" doesn't rank so high on the 'makes good decisions' scale.

#partypooper
#nofunatall
 
I just had the coolest thought. I bet this would look badass on an application. What if you were going into a surgery, and you asked that they purposely give you a small enough dosage of anesthetic so that you could be partially aware of the surgery, and watch them do the surgery on you? Haha this sounds so stupid but kind of cool.

It's called Lasik
 
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