surgery prelims

[FirstAid]

Could anyone inform me of how competitive it is to match into a surgery prelim? My scores aren't supper high (Step 1 205, Step 2 210) and all pass (no honors) for my clerkships from a no-name school in the south. I noticed that a lot of surgery prelims, including "big name" programs, went unmatched last year. Are surgery prelims that malignant? Thanks in advance.

FA

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[Leukocyte]

I am sure you know this, surgery prelim = one year only.

No one WANTS to match into a sx prelim unless it is required for their ultimate specialty (Ortho, Uro,......).

IMHO, most people do not like prelim sx because:

-It is a Very hard internship (It is surgery after all)

-Prelims are usually not treated as their Categorical intern peers. Meaning that the Cats. get priority over the Prelims. when it comes to OR time.

-Most of the internship is spent on the floors.

-The fate after the internship ends is unknown.

 

[Leukocyte]

Could anyone inform me of how competitive it is to match into a surgery prelim? My scores aren't supper high (Step 1 205, Step 2 210) and all pass (no honors) for my clerkships from a no-name school in the south.
FA

I think if you want a sx prelim spot you can get it...I see no problem there.

Good Luck.

 

[FirstAid]

I forgot to mention that I'm going into anesthesiology. I considered doing prelim IM or transitional year for my PGY-1 year, but I really love dealing with the peri-operative patient since this is pretty much what I'm going into. I don't mind working hard. I don't mind floors...just as long as we're rounding on surgical patients...medicine rounds suck! I just want to make sure that I can match into a good prelim. surgery program. I'm also possibly thinking of surgical critical care for a fellowship after anesthesia. Overall, surgery, anesthesia, and the peri-operative environment (including pre- and post-op floor manageent) is basically what I'm looking for, which is why I'm applying to prelim. surgery programs. Anymore advice from all you surgeons would be greatly appeciated. And thanks Leukocyte for your response!

FA

 

[SLUser11]

I forgot to mention that I'm going into anesthesiology. I considered doing prelim IM or transitional year for my PGY-1 year, but I really love dealing with the peri-operative patient since this is pretty much what I'm going into. I don't mind working hard. I don't mind floors...just as long as we're rounding on surgical patients...medicine rounds suck! I just want to make sure that I can match into a good prelim. surgery program. I'm also possibly thinking of surgical critical care for a fellowship after anesthesia. Overall, surgery, anesthesia, and the peri-operative environment (including pre- and post-op floor manageent) is basically what I'm looking for, which is why I'm applying to prelim. surgery programs. Anymore advice from all you surgeons would be greatly appeciated. And thanks Leukocyte for your response!

FA

It's not worth it. Do an easy transitional year. You have to love surgery to justify the pain....I wouldn't do it for the peri-operative experience.....

If you really really want to, it's pretty easy to MATCH into prelim spots, but I'd aim at programs that have the least amount of pain with the greatest amount of learning experience....AND places where you do ICU as an intern since that's what you like.

Still, I wouldn't do it if I was you.

 

[njbmd]

Could anyone inform me of how competitive it is to match into a surgery prelim? My scores aren't supper high (Step 1 205, Step 2 210) and all pass (no honors) for my clerkships from a no-name school in the south. I noticed that a lot of surgery prelims, including "big name" programs, went unmatched last year. Are surgery prelims that malignant? Thanks in advance.

FA

It should not be very difficult for you to get into a designated preliminary surgery position. The advantage to doing a PGY-1 surgery year is that you will get loads of procedures like central lines, chest tubes etc. so these will be very easy for you once you hit your CA-1 year.

A transitional year is likely going to be the toughest match for you but the good in terms of exposure to different types of patients. Again, likely not a procedure heavy as surgery but you would get peds, IM, psych etc.

Preliminary IM is going to be the easiest match. If you are alive, you can get a prelim IM position. Just go for the best prelim IM position that you can get so you get the best experience. Many IM positions can be more malignant than a good prelim surgery position. Ask around and try to get the best match that you can.

My buddies that went into Anesthesia said that the surgical prelim year was helpful because they got loads of lines etc. and actually got to do an elective in Anesthesia. 👍

 

[Winged Scapula]

Just my two cents on the issue....

- it is not necessarily true that Categoricals are favored over prelims when it comes to choice rotations or OR time, especially if the Prelim has a surgical career in mind. However, for someone like yourself who has plans on going into Anesthesia, you may be passed over on certain cases for the Categoricals, Designated Prelims and Non-Designated Prelims who want to go into surgery. This likely isn't a problem for you.

- A career in "Surgical Critical Care" which you described as a goal of yours requires at least 3 years of general surgery training, even those without Trauma fellowships attached to the Critical Care portion. More likely, what you want is a post-Anesthesia Critical Care fellowship.

- I agree with SLUser - a Prelim surgical year is pretty painful. While I agree that Medicine rounds are torture, surgery is painful not only because of the hours (which are violated in many programs) but because of the (near) daily humiliation. Many surgeons are unable to criticize and teach without degrading their junior residents. Its one thing to tolerate this because you have a goal of being a surgeon, its quite another because you think it will be better than a Prelim IM year. And I say this coming from a program which is supposedly less malignant than others.

- You will learn Peri-operative care on Medicine, as you will likely be doing some critical care rotations or maybe can even swing a surgical one. Since the vast majority of your colleagues have had a Prelim IM year, it doesn't seem to be a detriment to their career goals.

- If you are still unswayed, yes - there are lots of open spots in Prelim Surgery each year because only those that absolutely have to have them (ie, Ortho, ENT, etc.) apply for them...usually.

 

[FirstAid]

Thanks for your input, yall. I've finally decided to apply to prelim IM and prelim surgery programs. Getting into good transitionals are pretty cut throat in terms of competition, so I think my best shot will be IM or surgery. Most of my programs I'm applying to will probably be IM, but I do want to apply to a handful of prelim surgery programs as well. I love surgery, and both surgery and anesthesiology were literally neck-and-neck before I finally chose anesthesia as my finally career. Would anyone have any suggestions on some good (i.e. good cases and teaching; semi-non-malignant) programs that they recommend applying to? Location is not an issue...unless its Hawaii or Alaska 🙂

Just as a side note, I noticed that "brand-name" places like BIDMC, UCSF, Michigan, and Penn (just to name a few) barely filled last year for prelim surgery. Any reason why? Are they that malignant?

Thanks again for all of your advice.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Dartmouth where I am now is a good place to train. Hours are pretty tightly controlled and there isn't much malignancy. Great facilities and good support staff. The intern year is composed of 12 one month rotations. One each in ENT, Uro, Emergency, Ortho, Plastics, and then ICU, Trauma, CT, and some general rotations. Let me know via PM if you want more info.

 

[IFNgamma]

Just my two cents on the issue....

- If you are still unswayed, yes - there are lots of open spots in Prelim Surgery each year because only those that absolutely have to have them (ie, Ortho, ENT, etc.) apply for them...usually.

Ortho requires a prelim year? I read the requirements for many programs, none of them require a prelim year. Don't get me nervous here, cuz i didn't apply for any prelims specifically.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ortho requires a prelim year? I read the requirements for many programs, none of them require a prelim year. Don't get me nervous here, cuz i didn't apply for any prelims specifically.

Yes, Ortho does require a Prelim surgical year but most programs have it "built in", ie, you don't need to apply to a Prelim year separately. The Designated Prelim spots at the program are reserved for those who match into the Ortho program at the same hospital.

Sorry, in retrospect my earlier post made it sound like you had to apply separately.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Could anyone inform me of how competitive it is to match into a surgery prelim?

1) Palpate your anterior wrist just proximal to the base of the thumb. If you feel a pulse, then you too can be a surgery prelim. (For all the reasons listed above.)

 

[imtiaz]

its easy to get. i speak from experience.

 

[medstudent99]

hey sup...speaking from experience...being a surgery prelim is not compatible with life and if ur not already married and ur a prelim surgery resident it's not compatible with getting any either...just my two cents

 

[Dunce]

Yes, Ortho does require a Prelim surgical year but most programs have it "built in", ie, you don't need to apply to a Prelim year separately. The Designated Prelim spots at the program are reserved for those who match into the Ortho program at the same hospital.

Sorry, in retrospect my earlier post made it sound like you had to apply separately.

For what it's worth:
I think all of the ENT programs now have the "built in" gen surg intern year as well.

 

[Soapbox123]

i'm applying to both prelim and categorical surg programs at a couple places, and i was wondering if eras lets me submit the same ps for both, or if i can send in different ones.

 

[Winged Scapula]

i'm applying to both prelim and categorical surg programs at a couple places, and i was wondering if eras lets me submit the same ps for both, or if i can send in different ones.

You can submit difference PS to different programs if you wish.