Surgery Rotation....

[honey0102]

On my second week of surgery at a major university hospital.

I feel absolutely miserable. The pimping is record high. I get that it's useful-but when done the right way.

Our chief will pimp us and when we get something wrong look at us like we are dumb, say cold things, etc. The questions he asks are often things not found in any prep book (Pestana, DeVirglio etc) and I'm fine looking it up but to be treated like I'm dumb for not knowing random detailed facts? I've also seen the chief yell at the other residents. I've seen attendings yell at residents. It just goes on.

How did you guys survive this rotation? I walked into this rotation feeling decently confident about myself. I now feel totally inept.

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[jurassicpark]

Welcome to your third year. Surgery is often the hardest for most people, highest stress long hours. I remember waking up at 3am every day to get in by 4am, round on patients, get home by 8pm, study then repeat. Constantly on your feet, questions being thrown around.

Unfortunately not all chiefs and residents are the same. Some are malignant and love taking delight in make those under them suffer. If the malignancy is out of proportion may be helpful to talk your student coordinator. Some chiefs are notorious. I remember my OB chief essentially got banned from having or even interacting with students due to their personality issues. But pimping and being made small is also very very common place in an academic setting.

For most of us, it was work like you've never worked before and bear through it. Sometimes asking people who've already done the rotation with that chief on what they want, etc.

To be fair though, one of the residents use to give me back massages when I rotated through

 

[honey0102]

Welcome to your third year. Surgery is often the hardest for most people, highest stress long hours. I remember waking up at 3am every day to get in by 4am, round on patients, get home by 8pm, study then repeat. Constantly on your feet, questions being thrown around.

Unfortunately not all chiefs and residents are the same. Some are malignant and love taking delight in make those under them suffer. If the malignancy is out of proportion may be helpful to talk your student coordinator. Some chiefs are notorious. I remember my OB chief essentially got banned from having or even interacting with students due to their personality issues. But pimping and being made small is also very very common place in an academic setting.

For most of us, it was work like you've never worked before and bear through it. Sometimes asking people who've already done the rotation with that chief on what they want, etc.

To be fair though, one of the residents use to give me back massages when I rotated through

Thanks!
It's not so bad we could complain to the school. but still just...tough
and hahaha about the back massage. Hope they felt good

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If you are a 3rd yr, you have many many gaps in your knowledge base and they will be exposed daily. It's a difficult adjustment, but with continued reading and preparation, you will get better. Everyone was a 3rd yr once on their first surgery rotation. Work hard, be early, not just on time, and accept criticism with grace. It's only for a few weeks. If you are planning on surgery, then better pick up the pace and start getting some questions right. They will notice if you are working hard. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[honey0102]

If you are a 3rd yr, you have many many gaps in your knowledge base and they will be exposed daily. It's a difficult adjustment, but with continued reading and preparation, you will get better. Everyone was a 3rd yr once on their first surgery rotation. Work hard, be early, not just on time, and accept criticism with grace. It's only for a few weeks. If you are planning on surgery, then better pick up the pace and start getting some questions right. They will notice if you are working hard. Good luck and best wishes!

I do the readings and get many questions right...but the chief will keep asking until we mess up and then be cold about it...
The resident admitted he too fears the chief.
It's behavior like this that scares me. Toxic, humiliating behavior.

 

[Newyawk]

Gen surg at certain programs just plain sucks. I had a horrible experience. Just expect the worst everyday with a smile on, work hard, and eventually time will pass and hopefully the day isnt as bad as you expected it to be.

 

[shemer77]

Just get through gen surgery and everything else will be easy

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I do the readings and get many questions right...but the chief will keep asking until we mess up and then be cold about it...
The resident admitted he too fears the chief.
It's behavior like this that scares me. Toxic, humiliating behavior.

Well, you could grab a coloring book and head to a safe space, or...do as I suggested above. The OR is not a safe space, excellence is demanded at all times. You basically just dont like a couple Drs on service. It happens on all services, probably worse on surgery. Work hard, it will be noticed. It is only a few weeks. If you have no interest in surgery, ok. Most dont. The surgery rotation comes with the MD degree you signed up for. My wife had a worse time than you and she just shrugged it off. If you came here just to vent, I totally get it. It's not an easy rotation for newly minted 3rd yrs. Btw, you think your Chief is bad? You will have patients who are far scarier. Get ready.

 

[Rekt]

Well, you could grab a coloring book and head to a safe space, or...do as I suggested above. The OR is not a safe space, excellence is demanded at all times. You basically just dont like a couple Drs on service. It happens on all services, probably worse on surgery. Work hard, it will be noticed. It is only a few weeks. If you have no interest in surgery, ok. Most dont. The surgery rotation comes with the MD degree you signed up for. My wife had a worse time than you and she just shrugged it off. If you came here just to vent, I totally get it. It's not an easy rotation for newly minted 3rd yrs. Btw, you think your Chief is bad? You will have patients who are far scarier. Get ready.

Yeah, no. The surgery service is the safe space for all people who regret going into surgery and regret being alive and take it out on the medical students. Almost everything you're pimped on will be 100% irrelevant to your future. It just makes them feel good about themselves for living in the hospital. There's zero reason to keep perpetuating this eating our young mentality. It has absolutely no benefit on education. And being through many hospital systems, no one comes close to how uniformly malignant surgery is. No idea what you mean by patients being worse. That doesn't even make sense.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

I do the readings and get many questions right...but the chief will keep asking until we mess up and then be cold about it...
The resident admitted he too fears the chief.
It's behavior like this that scares me. Toxic, humiliating behavior.

this just sounds funny lol

 

[ciestar]

My lack of interest in surgery was no secret. I even shied away from the OR as much as i could. I still got an honors eval because I was an advocate for my patients. I knew what my patients needed, even if that wasn’t on the surgical side. Your residents do like it when you’re helpful and that doesnt just have to be in the OR

 

[AMEHigh]

Yeah, no. The surgery service is the safe space for all people who regret going into surgery and regret being alive and take it out on the medical students. Almost everything you're pimped on will be 100% irrelevant to your future. It just makes them feel good about themselves for living in the hospital. There's zero reason to keep perpetuating this eating our young mentality. It has absolutely no benefit on education. And being through many hospital systems, no one comes close to how uniformly malignant surgery is. No idea what you mean by patients being worse. That doesn't even make sense.

I think s/he means depending on your specialty and where you work, patients treat doctors like **** sometimes too. Unfortunately, physicians get yelled at, threatened and even assaulted by patients. In general you don’t have to put up with such behavior, but you still have to be professional about calling patients out on such behavior and essentially have to let it roll of your back. You can’t just cuss patients out like you might want to, the same as when you’re a med student you can’t just cuss out the chiefs/attendings that treat you like ****.

 

[DarkHorizon]

On my second week of surgery at a major university hospital.

I feel absolutely miserable. The pimping is record high. I get that it's useful-but when done the right way.

Our chief will pimp us and when we get something wrong look at us like we are dumb, say cold things, etc. The questions he asks are often things not found in any prep book (Pestana, DeVirglio etc) and I'm fine looking it up but to be treated like I'm dumb for not knowing random detailed facts? I've also seen the chief yell at the other residents. I've seen attendings yell at residents. It just goes on.

How did you guys survive this rotation? I walked into this rotation feeling decently confident about myself. I now feel totally inept.

Let me guess, this guy probably also gets pissed if you get a question right..... there are asshats like that in surgery. Don’t let that discourage you. Power your way through. You’ll be better for it.

 

[crunchywhit]

Op can you pm me where you are. Applying to gen surg so just curious.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Well, you could grab a coloring book and head to a safe space, or...do as I suggested above. The OR is not a safe space, excellence is demanded at all times. You basically just dont like a couple Drs on service. It happens on all services, probably worse on surgery. Work hard, it will be noticed. It is only a few weeks. If you have no interest in surgery, ok. Most dont. The surgery rotation comes with the MD degree you signed up for. My wife had a worse time than you and she just shrugged it off. If you came here just to vent, I totally get it. It's not an easy rotation for newly minted 3rd yrs. Btw, you think your Chief is bad? You will have patients who are far scarier. Get ready.

Without knowing exactly what's happening with the chief in question, this seems unnecessary. Its entirely possible that the chief's behavior is beyond what is acceptable among surgeons.

And abuse from patients is a whole different thing because of the inherent power difference. That's not the case with students, in fact it would be more like a physician yelling/cursing at a patient except that patient can just get a new doctor.

Now there is a decent chance that the OP is being overly sensitive but you and I both know there are residents (and attendings for that matter) out there who don't handle stress well and take it out on students/interns beyond what should be acceptable.

 

[Newyawk]

Let me guess, this guy probably also gets pissed if you get a question right..... there are asshats like that in surgery. Don’t let that discourage you. Power your way through. You’ll be better for it.

One of my residents on surgery pimped me nonstop and i prob got 80-90% of the Qs right. It annoyed him so much i could tell. I asked him for feedback a week in and he goes “your knowledge is below average, you have to read more”.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

No argument with what you said. OP indicated behavior did not meet the level which would require reporting. My patience and empathy has limits. I believe my first response validated their concerns and offered support. Physicians have to interact with all kinds of personalities during their training and practice. Each of us has to deal with such in our own way. You can only be a victim if you give power to the abuser. Dont give them the power. Stay and work hard. The rotation is only for a few weeks. This is my message to OP.

 

[TypeADissection]

Jeez. Your rotation sounds terrible. A lot like mine did when I was an MS-3. Just hang in there and do the best you can. I've always tried to set a different tone for the rotations when I was a resident and now fellow, because surgery is such a great field. Definitely lots of sacrifice but the work can be so incredibly rewarding. Cheers.

 

[7331poas]

Yeah, no. The surgery service is the safe space for all people who regret going into surgery and regret being alive and take it out on the medical students. Almost everything you're pimped on will be 100% irrelevant to your future. It just makes them feel good about themselves for living in the hospital. There's zero reason to keep perpetuating this eating our young mentality. It has absolutely no benefit on education. And being through many hospital systems, no one comes close to how uniformly malignant surgery is. No idea what you mean by patients being worse. That doesn't even make sense.

Meh, I think students would definitely not try to learn as much if they aren't pushed.

 

[MerYangBey]

I’m starting to feel like my surgery experience was rare. Our residents were mostly great and helpful. Chiefs were mildly grumpy but also helpful.

OP do they pimp the other med students the same way?
If you’re getting targeted more, it could be because they perceived a lack of interest or lack of effort compared to other students.
If they treat the other students the same then maybe try to brush it off. Know it’s not personal and doesn’t reflect your performance. Continue to study for the shelf. Do well on the shelf and move on.

 

[honey0102]

Yeah, no. The surgery service is the safe space for all people who regret going into surgery and regret being alive and take it out on the medical students. Almost everything you're pimped on will be 100% irrelevant to your future. It just makes them feel good about themselves for living in the hospital. There's zero reason to keep perpetuating this eating our young mentality. It has absolutely no benefit on education. And being through many hospital systems, no one comes close to how uniformly malignant surgery is. No idea what you mean by patients being worse. That doesn't even make sense.

Thanks so much. This echoes my sentiment. To teach or ask in order to teach is one thing. But to eat away at our mentality, make us feel dumb, that is something different. And I've been in a few other specialties before (primary care), with the exception of one oddball case no doctor was like this.
And my patients have been much kinder than the senior I mentioned, I agree.
Thanks so much for your sympathy

 

[honey0102]

Jeez. Your rotation sounds terrible. A lot like mine did when I was an MS-3. Just hang in there and do the best you can. I've always tried to set a different tone for the rotations when I was a resident and now fellow, because surgery is such a great field. Definitely lots of sacrifice but the work can be so incredibly rewarding. Cheers.

I wish you were a senior or fellow at my program!

 

[honey0102]

Meh, I think students would definitely not try to learn as much if they aren't pushed.

No. Definitely not in my case. I am the kind of person who pushes myself anyway. Many of my classmates are too

 

[honey0102]

I’m starting to feel like my surgery experience was rare. Our residents were mostly great and helpful. Chiefs were mildly grumpy but also helpful.

OP do they pimp the other med students the same way?
If you’re getting targeted more, it could be because they perceived a lack of interest or lack of effort compared to other students.
If they treat the other students the same then maybe try to brush it off. Know it’s not personal and doesn’t reflect your performance. Continue to study for the shelf. Do well on the shelf and move on.

Definitely all of us. It isn't just me.

 

[honey0102]

Without knowing exactly what's happening with the chief in question, this seems unnecessary. Its entirely possible that the chief's behavior is beyond what is acceptable among surgeons.

And abuse from patients is a whole different thing because of the inherent power difference. That's not the case with students, in fact it would be more like a physician yelling/cursing at a patient except that patient can just get a new doctor.

Now there is a decent chance that the OP is being overly sensitive but you and I both know there are residents (and attendings for that matter) out there who don't handle stress well and take it out on students/interns beyond what should be acceptable.

There are other students and residents who feel the same way about this situation, it isn't just me, and I highly doubt all of us are overly sensitive.
I don't think his behavior is unacceptable among surgeons, as I have heard stories of this happening (and much worse) in surgery...still doesn't make it right, IMO

 

[7331poas]

No. Definitely not in my case. I am the kind of person who pushes myself anyway. Many of my classmates are too

A lot of that is because the system pushes you. Step 1 and 2 scores determining ability to match, etc.

If nothing really mattered, medical students would definitely not push themselves as much.

 

[kb1900]

A lot of that is because the system pushes you. Step 1 and 2 scores determining ability to match, etc.

If nothing really mattered, medical students would definitely not push themselves as much.

partially because until you are so far removed from any clinical responsibility. tbh even on rotations I’m surprised when my fellow students don’t even know their patient’s names despite only following 4-5 tops.

 

[honey0102]

A lot of that is because the system pushes you. Step 1 and 2 scores determining ability to match, etc.

If nothing really mattered, medical students would definitely not push themselves as much.

No...maybe that's how some others think...but not me. And not many people I know.
To be honest, I've wanted to be a doctor for a long time. And like anyone else, worked very hard to get here. I feel to do all that then come here and not learn kind of defies the purpose.
6 years from now I don't want to be an incompetent attending. I don't want to harm a patient.
And hence I pay attention and do my best.
So to say my supervisors have to be scary to get me to focus is not true, I actually did better (I felt) in inpatient IM-intense rotation but kind supervisors-they'd expect very little but I'd still push myself anyway-their kind demeanor was what got me less worried.

 

[Mass Effect]

If you are a 3rd yr, you have many many gaps in your knowledge base and they will be exposed daily. It's a difficult adjustment, but with continued reading and preparation, you will get better. Everyone was a 3rd yr once on their first surgery rotation. Work hard, be early, not just on time, and accept criticism with grace. It's only for a few weeks. If you are planning on surgery, then better pick up the pace and start getting some questions right. They will notice if you are working hard. Good luck and best wishes!

Well, you could grab a coloring book and head to a safe space, or...do as I suggested above. The OR is not a safe space, excellence is demanded at all times. You basically just dont like a couple Drs on service. It happens on all services, probably worse on surgery. Work hard, it will be noticed. It is only a few weeks. If you have no interest in surgery, ok. Most dont. The surgery rotation comes with the MD degree you signed up for. My wife had a worse time than you and she just shrugged it off. If you came here just to vent, I totally get it. It's not an easy rotation for newly minted 3rd yrs. Btw, you think your Chief is bad? You will have patients who are far scarier. Get ready.

No. Just. No. I'm sorry, but why is abuse being "shrugged" off? No. This type of behavior is not okay and the more we, as attendings, pat the MS3s on the back and say "you study, you show up early, you take it and say please and thank you after every beating," the more we normalize and excuse this behavior among residents, chiefs, and attendings. Posts like the OP's should be met with (a) can you share any specifics and (b) that is NOT okay. You are absolutely right. You have two choices: you can report this chief if you feel he/she has truly crossed the line or it's affecting your mental health or you can suck it up during the rotation and give them absolute hell on the eval and report the chief after the rotation. A good dose of validation and good advice goes a hell of a lot further than pretending this type of behavior happens all the time and to just get over it.

Also, I don't know how your clinics run, but scary patients get fired from mine. Toxic, abusive behavior is not okay in any environment.

OP, you have two choices: you can report this chief if you feel he/she has truly crossed the line or it's affecting your mental health or you can suck it up during the rotation and give them absolute hell on the eval and report the chief after the rotation. No matter what you choose to do, please remember how you feel at this exact moment and make yourself a promise that you will never treat a student or a resident that way.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

No. Just. No. I'm sorry, but why is abuse being "shrugged" off? No. This type of behavior is not okay and the more we, as attendings, pat the MS3s on the back and say "you study, you show up early, you take it and say please and thank you after every beating," the more we normalize and excuse this behavior among residents, chiefs, and attendings. Posts like the OP's should be met with (a) can you share any specifics and (b) that is NOT okay. You are absolutely right. You have two choices: you can report this chief if you feel he/she has truly crossed the line or it's affecting your mental health or you can suck it up during the rotation and give them absolute hell on the eval and report the chief after the rotation. A good dose of validation and good advice goes a hell of a lot further than pretending this type of behavior happens all the time and to just get over it.

Also, I don't know how your clinics run, but scary patients get fired from mine. Toxic, abusive behavior is not okay in any environment.

OP, you have two choices: you can report this chief if you feel he/she has truly crossed the line or it's affecting your mental health or you can suck it up during the rotation and give them absolute hell on the eval and report the chief after the rotation. No matter what you choose to do, please remember how you feel at this exact moment and make yourself a promise that you will never treat a student or a resident that way.

Guess you missed the part where OP said the behavior didnt meet the threshold to be reported.

 

[7331poas]

No...maybe that's how some others think...but not me. And not many people I know.
To be honest, I've wanted to be a doctor for a long time. And like anyone else, worked very hard to get here. I feel to do all that then come here and not learn kind of defies the purpose.
6 years from now I don't want to be an incompetent attending. I don't want to harm a patient.
And hence I pay attention and do my best.
So to say my supervisors have to be scary to get me to focus is not true, I actually did better (I felt) in inpatient IM-intense rotation but kind supervisors-they'd expect very little but I'd still push myself anyway-their kind demeanor was what got me less worried.

Perhaps you have a skewed view. You honestly think that neurosurgery applicants are pumping out 9+ manuscripts because they are passionate about research? And it just so happens that neurosurgery looks for that applicant? I assert that it is the other way around.

I think family medicine docs also want to be good at their job and not harm patients. But they aren't voluntarily working as hard at surgeons in order to do it.

 

[Usmle_Seeker2020]

I'm a Caribbean medical student, finishing my 4th year. the hospital I was doing the surgery rotation at accepts both caribb. and american medical students. We were treated very badly by the surgeon. we get yelled at almost every day. Some students were scared to death( metaphorically) to wake up in the morning and go to this rotation every day. one of the students couldn't even handle the stress. She was crying almost every day after we go home. She was targeted more, even if she had knowledge more that us, but she was the weakest. The surgeon we were rotating with yelled so strong at nurses inside the OR. It was terrible, specially for a student coming from a Caribbean island( also with a terrible experience lol). However, I knew this is going to be only for a few weeks, and it will be over soon and I did fine.

 

[scoopdaboop]

NGL, anytime someone mentions the surgery rotation, I always get reminded of this classic post:

Is Surgery the most useless rotation in MS3 year?

Just finished up my Surgery rotation and wow hahahaha was it the most worthless, meaningless and least enjoyable experience of medical school. Medical students' role on this rotation consist of: 1) Cutting sutures with a pair of scissors like a kindergartner 2) Retracting skin for multiple...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[honey0102]

Perhaps you have a skewed view. You honestly think that neurosurgery applicants are pumping out 9+ manuscripts because they are passionate about research? And it just so happens that neurosurgery looks for that applicant? I assert that it is the other way around.

I think family medicine docs also want to be good at their job and not harm patients. But they aren't voluntarily working as hard at surgeons in order to do it.

Not going to comment on what others do. But I've stated my intentions and my own reasons for working hard.

 

[Kgizzle]

Look I may be naive but these rotations aren't about you knowing everything... as a fellow dumb ass MS3, you aren't supposed to have all the answers. The point of this year is figuring out what the hell you want to do with your life. Don't let malignant personalities skew your view. If surgery ain't for you, that's cool. Learn as much as you can and continue being a great person while that surgery chief continues to be unhappy. Don't let miserable people have that much power over you. It's okay being dumb a ****, that's where were supposed to be.

 

[operaman]

Sorry you’re having a crap experience e
OP. It’s been a mission of mine that all the students who rotate with me have a good experience on surgery. They don’t all have to become surgeons, but I don’t want a poor experience to be what drives them away.

I’m always torn with how to interpret these posts. I want to take it at face value but I’ve had enough experiences both as a student and resident where someone else on rotation with me reported some behavior as bad that I felt was completely benign.

When I don’t like a student I tend to ignore them and just go about me day. This is rare and usually triggered by someone who truly doesn’t seem to care about our patients and our field and is just checked out. My feeling is that they’re adults and if they’d rather go study for shelf then that’s up to them. Pretty expensive test prep they’re paying for but hey, there ya go.

For the rest I’m a pretty hardcore pimper. I tend to ask questions about anything we’re doing. Why am I ordering this test? Should we operate on this patient and why? What operation should I offer them? I want students to be engaged and thinking and wrestling with these decisions justice like I am. I don’t really care if they get the answers “right,” I care if they’re thinking.

Most truly interesting questions don’t have a right answer. The questions I ask my attendings these days focus on all those nebulous areas where decisions stem more from experience than evidence, where our literature simply hasn’t answered something yet.

I try to keep things light and fun and point out areas where my knowledge is or was recently lacking. I’m sure there are probably some students who find the constant questions stressful but this is simply how I teach and how I assess their knowledge.

I try to do it kindly but there is some inherent discomfort in learning, in coming out of ignorance. It’s not a painless process. Ever. As a student the pain comes in a senior person saying you’re wrong. Soon enough it’s your patient crumping or your post op having some complication that stabs you with the realization you were wrong. It sucks!

It doesn’t excuse bad behavior but I do find it difficult to discern between the pain and stress of public learning and truly abusive behavior. I’ve disagreed with people even when I was present for the behavior; I don’t stand a chance trying to assess it second hand.

Agreed that if it’s truly egregious report it so the chief gets the feedback. Ideally every other student who felt that way would report too. If I had multiple complaints from students I’d want to change up my approach.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Sorry you’re having a crap experience e
OP. It’s been a mission of mine that all the students who rotate with me have a good experience on surgery. They don’t all have to become surgeons, but I don’t want a poor experience to be what drives them away.

I’m always torn with how to interpret these posts. I want to take it at face value but I’ve had enough experiences both as a student and resident where someone else on rotation with me reported some behavior as bad that I felt was completely benign.

When I don’t like a student I tend to ignore them and just go about me day. This is rare and usually triggered by someone who truly doesn’t seem to care about our patients and our field and is just checked out. My feeling is that they’re adults and if they’d rather go study for shelf then that’s up to them. Pretty expensive test prep they’re paying for but hey, there ya go.

For the rest I’m a pretty hardcore pimper. I tend to ask questions about anything we’re doing. Why am I ordering this test? Should we operate on this patient and why? What operation should I offer them? I want students to be engaged and thinking and wrestling with these decisions justice like I am. I don’t really care if they get the answers “right,” I care if they’re thinking.

Most truly interesting questions don’t have a right answer. The questions I ask my attendings these days focus on all those nebulous areas where decisions stem more from experience than evidence, where our literature simply hasn’t answered something yet.

I try to keep things light and fun and point out areas where my knowledge is or was recently lacking. I’m sure there are probably some students who find the constant questions stressful but this is simply how I teach and how I assess their knowledge.

I try to do it kindly but there is some inherent discomfort in learning, in coming out of ignorance. It’s not a painless process. Ever. As a student the pain comes in a senior person saying you’re wrong. Soon enough it’s your patient crumping or your post op having some complication that stabs you with the realization you were wrong. It sucks!

It doesn’t excuse bad behavior but I do find it difficult to discern between the pain and stress of public learning and truly abusive behavior. I’ve disagreed with people even when I was present for the behavior; I don’t stand a chance trying to assess it second hand.

Agreed that if it’s truly egregious report it so the chief gets the feedback. Ideally every other student who felt that way would report too. If I had multiple complaints from students I’d want to change up my approach.

Nicely said. It's the truth.

 

[honey0102]

Look I may be naive but these rotations aren't about you knowing everything... as a fellow dumb ass MS3, you aren't supposed to have all the answers. The point of this year is figuring out what the hell you want to do with your life. Don't let malignant personalities skew your view. If surgery ain't for you, that's cool. Learn as much as you can and continue being a great person while that surgery chief continues to be unhappy. Don't let miserable people have that much power over you. It's okay being dumb a ****, that's where were supposed to be.

The thing is I find surgery interesting and the actual attendings are great. I can answer their pimp questions most of the time (tend to be reasonable) and sometimes, they ask me things beyond the M3 scope and if I get it wrong happily explain it-their point is not "you need to know everything".
The chief is the malignant one. But apparently, this is a theme in gen surg at my school-the chiefs are the mean ones. Not the attendings.
and being with him 12 h/d, 5-6d/wk...kind of skews my mentality.

 

[honey0102]

Sorry you’re having a crap experience e
OP. It’s been a mission of mine that all the students who rotate with me have a good experience on surgery. They don’t all have to become surgeons, but I don’t want a poor experience to be what drives them away.

I’m always torn with how to interpret these posts. I want to take it at face value but I’ve had enough experiences both as a student and resident where someone else on rotation with me reported some behavior as bad that I felt was completely benign.

When I don’t like a student I tend to ignore them and just go about me day. This is rare and usually triggered by someone who truly doesn’t seem to care about our patients and our field and is just checked out. My feeling is that they’re adults and if they’d rather go study for shelf then that’s up to them. Pretty expensive test prep they’re paying for but hey, there ya go.

For the rest I’m a pretty hardcore pimper. I tend to ask questions about anything we’re doing. Why am I ordering this test? Should we operate on this patient and why? What operation should I offer them? I want students to be engaged and thinking and wrestling with these decisions justice like I am. I don’t really care if they get the answers “right,” I care if they’re thinking.

Most truly interesting questions don’t have a right answer. The questions I ask my attendings these days focus on all those nebulous areas where decisions stem more from experience than evidence, where our literature simply hasn’t answered something yet.

I try to keep things light and fun and point out areas where my knowledge is or was recently lacking. I’m sure there are probably some students who find the constant questions stressful but this is simply how I teach and how I assess their knowledge.

I try to do it kindly but there is some inherent discomfort in learning, in coming out of ignorance. It’s not a painless process. Ever. As a student the pain comes in a senior person saying you’re wrong. Soon enough it’s your patient crumping or your post op having some complication that stabs you with the realization you were wrong. It sucks!

It doesn’t excuse bad behavior but I do find it difficult to discern between the pain and stress of public learning and truly abusive behavior. I’ve disagreed with people even when I was present for the behavior; I don’t stand a chance trying to assess it second hand.

Agreed that if it’s truly egregious report it so the chief gets the feedback. Ideally every other student who felt that way would report too. If I had multiple complaints from students I’d want to change up my approach.

I 100% agree with this! I also had an attending who constantly pimped-to get us to learn. I appreciated it. Recall the info well even now.
BUT he was kind. He didn't get aggressive and rude, or accuse anyone of not being prepared, when they in fact knew the patient and did the reading, just couldn't answer a question at a level beyond theirs. And that itself is the difference.

 

[softball2344]

Better than being ignored 99% of the time. I learned absolutely nothing on my surgery rotation (also at a university hospital)

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sorry you’re having a crap experience e
OP. It’s been a mission of mine that all the students who rotate with me have a good experience on surgery. They don’t all have to become surgeons, but I don’t want a poor experience to be what drives them away.

I’m always torn with how to interpret these posts. I want to take it at face value but I’ve had enough experiences both as a student and resident where someone else on rotation with me reported some behavior as bad that I felt was completely benign.

When I don’t like a student I tend to ignore them and just go about me day. This is rare and usually triggered by someone who truly doesn’t seem to care about our patients and our field and is just checked out. My feeling is that they’re adults and if they’d rather go study for shelf then that’s up to them. Pretty expensive test prep they’re paying for but hey, there ya go.

For the rest I’m a pretty hardcore pimper. I tend to ask questions about anything we’re doing. Why am I ordering this test? Should we operate on this patient and why? What operation should I offer them? I want students to be engaged and thinking and wrestling with these decisions justice like I am. I don’t really care if they get the answers “right,” I care if they’re thinking.

Most truly interesting questions don’t have a right answer. The questions I ask my attendings these days focus on all those nebulous areas where decisions stem more from experience than evidence, where our literature simply hasn’t answered something yet.

I try to keep things light and fun and point out areas where my knowledge is or was recently lacking. I’m sure there are probably some students who find the constant questions stressful but this is simply how I teach and how I assess their knowledge.

I try to do it kindly but there is some inherent discomfort in learning, in coming out of ignorance. It’s not a painless process. Ever. As a student the pain comes in a senior person saying you’re wrong. Soon enough it’s your patient crumping or your post op having some complication that stabs you with the realization you were wrong. It sucks!

It doesn’t excuse bad behavior but I do find it difficult to discern between the pain and stress of public learning and truly abusive behavior. I’ve disagreed with people even when I was present for the behavior; I don’t stand a chance trying to assess it second hand.

Agreed that if it’s truly egregious report it so the chief gets the feedback. Ideally every other student who felt that way would report too. If I had multiple complaints from students I’d want to change up my approach.

Residents/Attendings like you truly are heroes.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Better than being ignored 99% of the time. I learned absolutely nothing on my surgery rotation (also at a university hospital)

No, no its not. I'd much rather be ignored than treated poorly.

 

[honey0102]

No, no its not. I'd much rather be ignored than treated poorly.

I agree.
Also very appreciative of attendings like you who understand this

 

[GoCubsGo20]

Surgery sucks if you don't want to do surgery. Do your best to get through it without your mental health taking too big a hit.

 

[honey0102]

Surgery sucks if you don't want to do surgery. Do your best to get through it without your mental health taking too big a hit.

The way our chief treats us-by "us": the students, intern and nurses-is just so demeaning. It's unprofessional. He takes out his anger on us. He speaks to us in ways I'd never speak to any human being. It's clear he has no respect for us.
It sucks to think we spent thousands of dollars and so many years, to be mistreated for 12+ hours everyday.
And I have no clue how nurses deal with it

 

[GoCubsGo20]

The way our chief treats us-by "us": the students, intern and nurses-is just so demeaning. It's unprofessional. He takes out his anger on us. He speaks to us in ways I'd never speak to any human being. It's clear he has no respect for us.
It sucks to think we spent thousands of dollars and so many years, to be mistreated for 12+ hours everyday.
And I have no clue how nurses deal with it

It’s quite depressing to see. Nurses catch so much flack from some docs, yet keep chugging along.

And that’s not to say all nurses are saints either..

 

[honey0102]

It’s quite depressing to see. Nurses catch so much flack from some docs, yet keep chugging along.

And that’s not to say all nurses are saints either..

Yup, I agree it is very depressing.
He treats us, nurses, interns all the same. I wouldn't treat anyone that way.
If someone else (ie, another department following the patient) doesn't do their job, he blames us.
If the patient is noncompliant, he yells at us.
He's really abusive. Makes us do so much scutwork-which is fine-but I'd at least expect some respect in return-if nothing else because we are fellow humans