Surgery Shadow!!! :D

[HurricaneKatt]

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I (finally) got to shadow some surgeries yesterday and it was SOOOOO cool!!!! I haven't been lucky enough to be able to volunteer much b/c the hospital here requires 100 hrs in the first 6 months which is difficult with school and work. Anyways, I got to watch an ankle surgery, a knee surgery, and two plastic surgeries - a tummy tuck/lipo and a breast repair surgery for a lady who had had breast cancer. I got to see how the surgeon made the marks before the surgery and the end result too. I also shadowed an anesthesiologist and saw some nerve blocks and other stuff. It was SO much fun!!!! 😀 I am super excited - I have always wanted to shadow a surgery, but it is nearly impossible to do now (at least it is here) because of some new liability and privacy stuff. I told my friends and they were either grossed out or not properly excited, so I had to tell someone who understood how frickin' awesome it was! haha 😀🙂 YAAAAYYY!!!!! I cant wait to do it again!

P.S. For applications, and interviews, etc, is it better to have shadow or volunteer time? Or does it matter at all? I know the main thing is to get exposure to the hospital environment and different areas and fields, but is one better than the other?

 

[rockydoc]

Awesome. I totally agree, non-premeds/medical people just dont appreciate how freakin cool watching surgery (or any new clinical experience for that matter) really is. I absolutely loved all of my surgical experiences.

P.S. For applications, and interviews, etc, is it better to have shadow or volunteer time? Or does it matter at all? I know the main thing is to get exposure to the hospital environment and different areas and fields, but is one better than the other?

I think its good to have at least some of both. Do what you can, but I would try for both. Any clinical experience is better than none however, so its good either way.

 

[JDOC13]

I'm jealous...I would love to watch some surgeries (in person, of course - I'm not counting the Discovery Health Channel).

 

[medstar21]

I would have to agree that surgeries are one of the coolest things about medicine. I was fortunate enough to volunteer at a hospital where I was able to observe surgeries every week. Open heart is pretty amazing, but I would have to say that my next favorite was a total abdominal historectomy... seeing the open body cavity after they removed the uterus was unreal. C-sections are pretty neat to watch as well. I always get choked up when new babies are born 🙂 lol

 

[olemissbabydoc]

I would have to agree that surgeries are one of the coolest things about medicine. I was fortunate enough to volunteer at a hospital where I was able to observe surgeries every week. Open heart is pretty amazing, but I would have to say that my next favorite was a total abdominal historectomy... seeing the open body cavity after they removed the uterus was unreal. C-sections are pretty neat to watch as well. I always get choked up when new babies are born 🙂 lol

Ditto. I too get choked up over the newbies. It's an amazing experience.

 

[menotyou7]

Historectomies are pretty cool to watch. I've been shadowing an Ob/Gyn for awhile now and I just recently got to start watching on her surgery days. I saw three different styles of historectomies on the same day. One was through a traditional abdominal incision and they removed the uterus and ovaries. The second was vaginal, they removed the uterus, ovaries and cervix, and left a dummy pocket behind. The third was through the scope. They removed the the uterus and ovaries. The ovaries were placed in small bags (using the scope!) and removed through a tiny incision, and the uterus was passed through a sort of meat grinder type thing and removed in pieces. It was really cool. I also got to see two ovarian torsions, but I'm still waiting for the holy grail - the C-section.

 

[shemarty]

Ditto to everything that has been said. Shadowing in the OR has been one of the most amazing experiences.

From the surgical oncologist I've seen Whipple procedures to remove pancreatic tumors, total thyroidectomies, minimally invasive parathyroidectomies, resection of huge sarcomas, and resection of liver tumors.

From the vascular surgeon I've seen endovascular AAA stenting, open carotid endarterectomies, dialysis access (A-V fistula), 1st rib resections, varicose vein stripping, and amputations.

From the pediatric cardiac surgeon I've seen arterial switches to swap the pulmonary artery and aorta for transposition of the great arteries.

From the transplant surgeon I've seen a liver donor kidney transplant.

From the plastic surgeon I've seen a breast reduction, breast reduction, rhinoplasty, and cleft lip revision

From the otolaryngologist I've seen a replacement of the stapes (middle ear bone) with a prosthetic, and a repair of a hole in the dura at the cranial base.

I've seen one vaginal delivery, but no C-sections.

I'm going to check out upper extremity orthopedic surgery sometime soon.

I love the OR 🙂

 

[Dulcina]

dang guys, im so jealous!! how do you get around all the red tape to get in the OR?

 

[shemarty]

dang guys, im so jealous!! how do you get around all the red tape to get in the OR?

Here, the procedure goes like this: fill out forms to get a visitors badge, get person hosting you and the chair of their department to sign, have proof of vaccinations and TB test, get the patients to sign a consent form.

 

[medstar21]

Historectomies are pretty cool to watch. I've been shadowing an Ob/Gyn for awhile now and I just recently got to start watching on her surgery days. I saw three different styles of historectomies on the same day. One was through a traditional abdominal incision and they removed the uterus and ovaries. The second was vaginal, they removed the uterus, ovaries and cervix, and left a dummy pocket behind. The third was through the scope. They removed the the uterus and ovaries. The ovaries were placed in small bags (using the scope!) and removed through a tiny incision, and the uterus was passed through a sort of meat grinder type thing and removed in pieces. It was really cool. I also got to see two ovarian torsions, but I'm still waiting for the holy grail - the C-section.

haha, holy grail. C-sections are pretty cool, but they are also very, I can't think of the word but I guess maybe brutal? They are just not careful at all it seems like when trying to get in there. Its definitely an experience that I think everyone should get to see at some point... if they want

 

[UVAbme2009]

I've seen a laparoscopic gastric bypass and a mesenteric artery reconstruction.

The gastric bypass was a snooze, probably because it was laparoscopic. The mesenteric artery reconstruction on the other hand was THE COOLEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN. Getting to be at the table watching and being somewhat involved was AWESOME. I'd love to be a surgeon, but I don't think the lifestyle suits me.

 

[txprodigal]

do you guys think guys would have a harder time shadowing an OB/GYN over a female?

maybe i should look for a male OB/GYN?

 

[Princess87]

Ditto to everything that has been said. Shadowing in the OR has been one of the most amazing experiences.

From the surgical oncologist I've seen Whipple procedures to remove pancreatic tumors, total thyroidectomies, minimally invasive parathyroidectomies, resection of huge sarcomas, and resection of liver tumors.

From the vascular surgeon I've seen endovascular AAA stenting, open carotid endarterectomies, dialysis access (A-V fistula), 1st rib resections, varicose vein stripping, and amputations.

From the pediatric cardiac surgeon I've seen arterial switches to swap the pulmonary artery and aorta for transposition of the great arteries.

From the transplant surgeon I've seen a liver donor kidney transplant.

From the plastic surgeon I've seen a breast reduction, breast reduction, rhinoplasty, and cleft lip revision

From the otolaryngologist I've seen a replacement of the stapes (middle ear bone) with a prosthetic, and a repair of a hole in the dura at the cranial base.

I've seen one vaginal delivery, but no C-sections.

I'm going to check out upper extremity orthopedic surgery sometime soon.

I love the OR 🙂

😱 How did you convince all these docs to not only let you shadow but let you shadow in the OR? You can't have that many family friends!

 

[shemarty]

😱 How did you convince all these docs to not only let you shadow but let you shadow in the OR? You can't have that many family friends!

😕 They're not family friends...


I organize the undergrad physician shadowing program at my school, so I already have the list of doctors who have signed up to be paired up with a student. They're generally more than happy to let me shadow them, too. It is a teaching hospital, after all 🙂

 

[Blade28]

I love the OR 🙂

Damn you've seen more than many med students!

You're SO ready for med school. 👍

 

[Princess87]

😕 They're not family friends...


I organize the undergrad physician shadowing program at my school, so I already have the list of doctors who have signed up to be paired up with a student. They're generally more than happy to let me shadow them, too. It is a teaching hospital, after all 🙂

Wow-- only when talking to you guys do I realize how lame my school is. No pre-med committee, no "undergrad physician shadowing program...

I organized to shadow a pediatric neurosurgeon a couple days ago, and the whole four hours he looked so anxious to get rid of me. I was still appreciative to have gotten the chance but I would've felt a lot more comfortable had he been more receptive to the idea...

Not to mention this was the only doctor that was even open to letting me shadow out of a huge number that I tried.

 

[shemarty]

Damn you've seen more than many med students!

You're SO ready for med school. 👍

Haha, thanks 🙂

I was telling a gen surg resident about how I was bummed that I had to leave before they finished sewing the donor kidney into the recipient. She said "don't worry...the first time I ever saw a kidney transplant was on my transplant rotation in residency!"

🙂 The perspective helped.

 

[shemarty]

Wow-- only when talking to you guys do I realize how lame my school is. No pre-med committee, no "undergrad physician shadowing program...

I organized to shadow a pediatric neurosurgeon a couple days ago, and the whole four hours he looked so anxious to get rid of me. I was still appreciative to have gotten the chance but I would've felt a lot more comfortable had he been more receptive to the idea...

Not to mention this was the only doctor that was even open to letting me shadow out of a huge number that I tried.

Yea, it helps that there's a med school affiliated with the college. So the physicians there are used to med students rotating through their service, so many of them are generally very receptive to undergrads, too.

 

[Excelsius]

Yea, it helps that there's a med school affiliated with the college. So the physicians there are used to med students rotating through their service, so many of them are generally very receptive to undergrads, too.

That makes sense. At the hospital where I am they do not allow shadowing except for pediatricians. You can't even shadow a resident. So when deciding among the UCs, is it always more beneficial to attend a UC with med school? Or pretty much any UC should land you into an OR shadowing (like UCR or UCSC)?

 

[shemarty]

That makes sense. At the hospital where I am they do not allow shadowing except for pediatricians. You can't even shadow a resident. So when deciding among the UCs, is it always more beneficial to attend a UC with med school? Or pretty much any UC should land you into an OR shadowing (like UCR or UCSC)?

I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that. You'd have to call up the school's premed advisors and ask about the shadowing opportunities at that school. Even though there's a med school right here, the rules are way more strict for undergrad shadowers and there's a lot of administrative paperwork to be done.

That's why we set up this shadowing program, because its a nightmare for students to do it on their own.

 

[cinematographie]

i love OR shadowing! i volunteer at a children's hospital, so i only see pediatric surgeries. so far i've seen:

1. Right knee arthroscopy with lateral meniscal repair
2. Exploratory laparotomy, extensive lysis of adhesions, revision of ileal fistula
3. Left craniotomy for removal of electrodes, resection of an arteriovenous malformation (AVM), intraoperative angiogram
4. Excision of left sub-mandibular mass
5. Right craniotomy and resection of electrocorticographic cortical
6. Spinal Fusion with bone graft

it's been really great and eye opening. it's a teaching hospital where my aunt works, but the nurses i generally volunteer with would have gotten me regardless of my aunt. so, yeah, teaching hospital is the way to go!

i have a question, though (i'm looking at you shemarty). how do you go about documenting these surgeries on the primary? do you do it under one listing, and list all the doctors you shadowed by name and specialty? what do you put down for the contact? thanks! and op, yay for OR shadowing!

 

[shemarty]

do you do it under one listing, and list all the doctors you shadowed by name and specialty? what do you put down for the contact?

Exactly. And I put hours next to each doctor's name/specialty.

If this was all at one hospital, then you can list the hospital at the top. Otherwise put it next to the name/specialty/hours.

No contact at the top, because I've included all their names in the text box.

 

[cinematographie]

awesome, thank you!

 

[Princess87]

Well no wonder it's hard for me to shadow-- the government body of physicians in my province prevents it 😡 wtf...

"JOB SHADOWING
Preamble
In 1998, the Ethical Standards and Conduct Review Committee drafted guidelines, which allowed limited job shadowing of physicians by high school students. While the guidelines were outlined in the College Quarterly they were not included in the Committee minutes, nor were they formally endorsed by Council.

In recent years, youth work experience programs have become more prevalent. With increased inquiries from both the public and physicians, the College has recognized that job shadowing poses significant concerns about patient confidentiality and privacy since students cannot adequately be held accountable to any sort of confidentiality agreement following the observation.

The College of Physicians and Surgeons of BC, therefore, does not support the practice of job shadowing by students in a physician’s office, clinic or hospital setting.*

Specifically, Council regards the following:

· A student may not be present at confidential interviews or during any examination;

· A student may not have any direct patient contact, irrespective of consent;

· A student may not be present in the operating room."

 

[shemarty]

Well no wonder it's hard for me to shadow-- the government body of physicians in my province prevents it 😡 wtf...

Oh, we have to train the shadowing program participants on patient privacy/confidentiality, and they're also technically not allowed to touch the patient at all.

We found a loophole that lets the students observe in clinic/rounds/anytime the patient is awake without written (verbal is required) consent, but the students still need written consent to observe in the OR.

What kind of 'youth' is this law talking about, anyway? Because at this hospital you also have to be over 18 to shadow. I can definitely understand not allowing high school students into exam rooms, but college students with proper training are generally well behaved. 😛

 

[Princess87]

Well they mentioned that if you're in a health-related professional program you might be able to work something out, but nothing else.

You have to come over here and set something up a program at my univ too 🙂 After you finish everyone else's secondaries for them, of course.

 

[shemarty]

Well they mentioned that if you're in a health-related professional program you might be able to work something out, but nothing else.

You have to come over here and set something up a program at my univ too 🙂 After you finish everyone else's secondaries for them, of course.

Yea, I'm hoping after this year that I can write up a document about starting up the program here (protocol, # participants, pre and post participation surveys, some evidence that the students benefit from the program, have increased interest in the medical field, and/or get into better med schools because of it,etc) and our med school advisor might be able to encourage other schools to do something similar. My ultimate goal would be have this type of program available to all premed students everywhere. Gotta start small, though.

 

[Excelsius]

I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that. You'd have to call up the school's premed advisors and ask about the shadowing opportunities at that school. Even though there's a med school right here, the rules are way more strict for undergrad shadowers and there's a lot of administrative paperwork to be done.

That's why we set up this shadowing program, because its a nightmare for students to do it on their own.

Now I see. From your earlier posts I thought that at Stanford shadowing was a snap. Didn't know about the paperwork and consent you have to do. Starting a program like this is a good idea. Have you dealt with a hospital that has an explicit policy restricting most forms of shadowing? Also, since we're both in CA, exactly which laws did you consult about the shadowing requirements?

I think that it will be far easier to establish rapport with UG's med school rather than starting with large hospitals that are run like businesses rather than teaching institutions.

 

[shemarty]

Now I see. From your earlier posts I thought that at Stanford shadowing was a snap. Didn't know about the paperwork and consent you have to do. Starting a program like this is a good idea. Have you dealt with a hospital that has an explicit policy restricting most forms of shadowing? Also, since we're both in CA, exactly which laws did you consult about the shadowing requirements?

I think that it will be far easier to establish rapport with UG's med school rather than starting with large hospitals that are run like businesses rather than teaching institutions.

Yea, it's definitely not *that* easy. It took a lot of work to figure out how it all worked, and I'm working on making the process more streamlined for premeds in the future.

I consulted the Compliance Director at the hospital - she's responsible for all the visitors badges, patient consent, health clearance, etc. Meeting with her, we understood what the limitations were and what loopholes we could take advantage of. I don't know the laws, but I'm sure she did and took them into consideration when she spoke to us.

Yes, we had a faculty member from the medical school (dean of advising, so he's in administration) as our program advisor. He represented that the med school was on board, which gave us more credibility when we met with the hospital.

We've tried the county hospital (also a teaching hospital affiliated with Stanford med), and they didn't allow shadowers. I'm going to try again this year to partner with them, but it was a no-go last year.

 

[Dulcina]

omg im SOOOOOOOO jealous!!!

shemarty, I dont go to stanford, but can I still participate in a few shadows? I'm about a 40 min drive from stanford, so maybe a longer day with more shadows would be AWESOME.

pleeeeease? =p

 

[shemarty]

omg im SOOOOOOOO jealous!!!

shemarty, I dont go to stanford, but can I still participate in a few shadows? I'm about a 40 min drive from stanford, so maybe a longer day with more shadows would be AWESOME.

pleeeeease? =p

You have to be a Stanford student and enroll in a 1 unit class here to be able to do it through this program.

If you're a 40 minute drive from Stanford, why aren't you coming to our dinner next Tuesday night in Palo Alto?

 

[Dulcina]

nooooooooooooooooooo. i was so excited to shadow =(

are you allowed to give out names/numbers outside of the program?

theres a dinner?

 

[ronicajay]

I get around the red tape by working for a hospital system 😀

My lab participates in a tumor bank and sometimes we get to go watch the surgery and follow the tumor to path before plunking it in liquid nitrogen. sometimes my job is really awesome!

 

[BlitzSleep]

Shadowing in the OR is a big deal? All I did was get a hold of some office person at the hospital, they let me borrow a pair of scrubs, and i got to follow whoever doctor said i could shadow around. No paperwork, no signatures, nothing at all. Surgeries are pretty long, so the only one's I've seen are a bypass, a groin lymph node removal, some guy getting some lobes removed from his lungs (this one was super long cause there was a code or something and the surgeon had to leave the OR for a few minutes), and watched something in a room that i had to wear some kind of radiation protection vest. Oh and I've seen some epidurals too. Is that considered clinical experience? hehe

 

[locus000]

I also saw a surgery procedure too, while shadowing an Orthopedic Surgeon. It was a quick but it was very cool.

For those looking get OR experience. The best way to get OR experience is to shadow an surgeon because the OR is where they spent most their time. As a volunteer, you are still restricted and cant really just go see an surgery procedure, more red tape to jump around

 

[2Fic]

you're lucky as hell...i've been trying to do that since middle school

 

[shemarty]

you're lucky as hell...i've been trying to do that since middle school

Well, there is a reason they won't let middle students into the OR.

 

[menotyou7]

do you guys think guys would have a harder time shadowing an OB/GYN over a female?

maybe i should look for a male OB/GYN?

Unfortunately, I know that you wouldn't be allowed to shadow the OB I've been shadowing. She runs a "women only" private practice. All four doctors are women, all of the nurses are women, and all of the employees are women. They let medical students do 3rd and 4th year rotations at the clinic, but only the women, no men. I don't know how widespread this type of practice is, but nowadays Ob/Gyn is a very female specialty and many patients are adamant that they want to be cared for by women. This doctors practice specifically caters to that population of patients.

To the other posters wanting to know how you find a doctor willing to let you shadow: I've been shadowing my own Ob/Gyn. I decided I wanted to go back to medical school after complications in my own pregnancy, and she was one of the first people I went to to talk to about the feasability of going back. I've been shadowing for 6 months now. First I shadowed in the clinic, then the hospital, then the OR. Before I was allowed to do anything, I had to fill out HIPPA forms, bring in vaccination records, and get a TB test. It's worked out well. She also got me a direct patient contact position volunteering at the university hospital in the OB/ICU. So I say start out by asking your own doctors to shadow. They know you (or they should) and are a great resource.

 

[HurricaneKatt]

How did I get to shadow?
Where I work we have a lot of medical personnel who come through so I am lucky enough to have various contacts in the Med Field. One of these contacts is an anesthesiologist who works at a surgery center in town and when he heard I was interested in a career in surgery, he offered to let me come in and shadow whatever I wanted. 😀 I pretty much had full reign of the place as far as access to shadowing. I could see anything and everything I wanted and the doctors, nurses, and other anesthesiologist all invited me to come back any time as often as I want!!!! 😀😀😀😀😀
I was totally excited b/c some new laws have made it nearly impossible to shadow surgeries here in AK...and anywhere really. 😀🙂😀🙂

 

[idrthrbsurfing]

if you want to shadow in an or, you have to be persistant. i spent like 3 months, calling over and over, without any help from anyone from my school. eventually i got an in, then i set it up for school credit, 100 hrs in the or seeing basically whatever was the coolest surgery going on, for school credit. just call over and over, fill out some paper work and you are in. i literally would just walk right into the or once or twice a week, check out the schedule, scrub up, and walk in. and leave when ever i wanted or needed to. it was pretty awesome.

 

[idrthrbsurfing]

and yea c sections are pretty nuts.
looks like a parasitic pale alien rolling out of the abdomen.

 

[HurricaneKatt]

I would LOVE to see a C-section but where I went they do mainly joint, osteo, and plastic surgery. 🙁 They do some pediatric stuff too, which is what I want to go into (pediatric or neonatal) so I am pretty excited to go see that. I haven't yet, but I plan to as soon as I can. 😀

 

[rbaksi]

has anyone in NJ or eastern PA been able to shadow a surgery? I'd really love to do it

 

[NCDocWannabe]

I've been shadowing a surgeon for almost a year and one of the coolest ops I got to see was a double amputation below the knees. It was such a magical experience but really sucked for the patient I guess. Beyond that the shadowing has me pretty sure I want to specialize in surgery, specificially I want to become an orthopod (insert smart ass comment or stereotype here ).

 

[sn121]

Yea, it's definitely not *that* easy. It took a lot of work to figure out how it all worked, and I'm working on making the process more streamlined for premeds in the future.

I consulted the Compliance Director at the hospital - she's responsible for all the visitors badges, patient consent, health clearance, etc. Meeting with her, we understood what the limitations were and what loopholes we could take advantage of. I don't know the laws, but I'm sure she did and took them into consideration when she spoke to us.

Yes, we had a faculty member from the medical school (dean of advising, so he's in administration) as our program advisor. He represented that the med school was on board, which gave us more credibility when we met with the hospital.

We've tried the county hospital (also a teaching hospital affiliated with Stanford med), and they didn't allow shadowers. I'm going to try again this year to partner with them, but it was a no-go last year.

Hello! I know this is a really old thread but I am a pre-med at UCLA. It is so incredibly difficult to shadow a physician at the UCLA Medical Center because all they throw at you are a lot of rules and regulations. How did you research all the laws and regulations or even make a proposal for this kind of program to be piloted? I really want to do that for my school. I just don't quite know how to go about it. Thanks!

 

[Toutie]

Hello! I know this is a really old thread but I am a pre-med at UCLA. It is so incredibly difficult to shadow a physician at the UCLA Medical Center because all they throw at you are a lot of rules and regulations. How did you research all the laws and regulations or even make a proposal for this kind of program to be piloted? I really want to do that for my school. I just don't quite know how to go about it. Thanks!

You will very likely have to go off campus for your shadowing. UCLA has been making it more and more difficult in recent years to shadow. There are plenty of doctors in and around the greater LA area you can shadow. Start with your former pediatrician, your FM, your parent's MD's, Granny's MD.

Considering the amount of red tape at UCLA, I doubt you would be able to do anything like suggested in that post. Plus that was 9 years ago, if anything, things (especially at UCLA) have been tightened up even further since then.

 

[Dox4lyfe]

Funny thing that this thread was bumped. I actually finally got the chance to shadow multiple physicians in the OR. AMAZING experience!! I got in through a connection, but then they stopped me at the door. I was hella scared and then found out it was because I wasn't wearing the right scrubs 🤣 Got to see six different surgeries including three that used the newest model of the DaVinci surgical robot. The surgeon was kind enough to even let me control it at the end!!

 

[bannie22]

Volunteering > shadowing