surgical fellowship
Started by sharpknife
Peds, PRS and Surg Onc ate traditionally the most competitive but almost all of the fellowships have certain programs which are difficult to match in to.
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where does the others stand, I'm looking into a fellowship. like vascular, transplant, colorectal, breast, critical care, hand, ect
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vascular, transplant, and critical care are regarded as non-competitive
breast, I'm not sure
hand is becoming more competitive lately, I believe
colorectal is quite competitive now
it also depends on your status, US AMG vs FMG.
Transplant US AMG match rate is like 90-100%. FMG is like 50%,
Breast is fairly noncompetitive i believe
MIS also mid to low competitive i believe.
Apparently the match rate for breast was around 40% this year. That sounds pretty competitive to me.
Also, I've heard from someone who applied this year that getting a hand fellowship directly out of general surgery is very competive due to the limited number of programs that take general surgeons.
You are correct. The match rate for rest fellowships has hovered between 40 and 50% for the last couple of years. What makes it more difficult in addition to the lack of spots is that it is commonly used as a backup for people applying to the more competitive plastics and surg onc fellowships.
Where can one view these stats? They are certainly interesting. People applying to multiple specialties should only hurt the match rate if they actually submit a ROL for the match. Otherwise, it shouldn't negatively affect the percentage (i.e. apply to both breast and plastics, and then withdraw from breast prior to the ROL due date).
For CRS, 140 applicants enrolled for the 89 spots, but 11 withdrew.
The match statistics are no longer publicly available. I had access to them as a member of the SSO education committee.
The issue with dual applicant is a little more complicated. The plastic surgery match is held early, during the fourth year; the surg onc during the Chief year. The breast surgical oncology fellowship match is held during the final year of residency but after the SSO Surg Onc match.
So the plastics applicants are not applying to start a fellowship at the same time. If they failed to match into plastic surgery the year before, and then apply again and to a breast fellowship, they do not need to withdraw from the breast fellowship match because that's what they will do during their gap year. For the Surg Onc applicants, they don't have to submit their breast fellowship ROL until after they've learned whether or not they've matched (Surg Onc match is in October, Breast ROL deadline usually in November). So while they may interview, they need not submit a match list unless they are planning on going through with the match. Some may wait to see if they get sufficient Surg Onc interviews before entering the breast match (Surg Onc opens in July, Breast in September).
My point is that these are candidates that are not specifically interested in breast surgery but are using the fellowship to fill a gap year in training. These candidates however tend to be more competitive and therefore in comparison to the average breast fellowship candidate they may make the competition to match more difficult.
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Are there breast fellowships that exist outside of SSO accreditation as well? That was the feeling I got from this thread. If so, residents matching into the non-SSO programs would be counted as unmatched.
I looked at this site that you linked, and the match results were quite interesting. If I counted correctly, there were 41 matched fellows. Out of those, there were 6 dudes (assuming the name "ManMeat" belongs to a male), so 85.4% female. 8/41 (20%) of the matched applicants were DOs. It brings up 2 questions:
1. Is this field going to become near-exclusively female? I think I know the answer. Too bad for ManMeat.
2. Are residents in osteopathic residencies eligible for this fellowship?
So are you telling me base on stats that breast fellowship is the hardest to get in since its 40% match rate. Ped surgery was 62% this year.
Yes, DO residents from AOA programs are eligible. One that matched, is at the Mayo Clinic
Yes, there are several unaccredited programs; most people don't apply for them that I am aware of. But yes if someone registered for the SSO match, submitted an ROL, failed to match to an SSO program but accepted a non-SSO program offer, they would be counted as "unmatched" by the SSO.
Yes, its been that way for several years. The field is populated by older men who have tired of taking GS or Surg Onc call and younger women. Every year there are generally 3-6 males who match.The men I know who've done breast fellowships are all very family oriented who enjoy treatment female patients with malignancies; its a more family friendly option as well.
Yes.
Its not that simple. Its the same reason that the Neurosurgery match rates are fairly high - its a self-selected population. People who aren't qualified for Peds Surg don't even try and match. That isn't the case for breast fellowships (see below).
The match statistics may be challengedas inaccurate for the reasons denoted above (and for the reasons that those who get into PRS or Surg Onc or non-accredited spot don't pull their apps/submit ROLs for the SSO Breast fellowship and are therefore counted as unmatched, when they really aren't).
IMHO it is also because weaker surgical residents are often pushed toward breast fellowships as a way to strengthen their skills before going out into practice. There are plenty of applicants with stellar credentials, published research, ABSITE scores, etc. and then there are some with dismal applications which probably accounts for the lower match rate. Finally, there are programs that expect a certain level of sensitivity, outgoing nature, polish and comportment which many general surgical residents simply do not possess (or think isn't important).
There are several unaccredited programs; most people don't apply for them that I am aware of. But yes, if someone registered for the SSO match, submitted an ROL, failed to match to an SSO program but accepted a non-SSO program offer, they would be counted as "unmatched" by the SSO.
Yes, its been that way for several years. The field is populated by older men who have tired of taking GS or Surg Onc call and younger women who have done fellowships. Every year there are generally 3-6 males who match.The men I know who've done breast fellowships are all very family oriented who enjoy treating female patients with malignancies; its a more family friendly option as well.
Yes. There are a couple that take Ob-Gyn residents as well.
Its not that simple. Its the same reason that the Neurosurgery match rates are fairly high - its a self-selected population. People who aren't qualified for Peds Surg don't even try and match. That isn't the case for breast fellowships (see below).
The match statistics may be challenged as inaccurate for the reasons denoted above (and for the reasons that those who get into PRS or Surg Onc or non-accredited spot don't pull their apps/submit ROLs for the SSO Breast fellowship and are therefore counted as unmatched, when they really aren't).
IMHO it is also because weaker surgical residents are often pushed toward breast fellowships as a way to strengthen their skills before going out into practice. There are plenty of applicants with stellar credentials, published research, ABSITE scores, etc. and then there are some with dismal applications which probably accounts for the lower match rate. Finally, there are programs that expect a certain level of sensitivity, outgoing nature, polish and comportment which many general surgical residents simply do not possess (or think isn't important).
Suffice it to say that I think its a combination of the fellowship becoming more popular, but with some skewed match statistics (Im sure someone will tease out the Surg Onc/PRS/non-accredited program data) and candidates who are simply not eligible but still applying which has affected the match rates.
It is NOT as competitive as Peds, Surg Onc, PRS, Colorectal, etc. I would put it above TXP, Bariatrics and Trauma, toward the low end of middling competitiveness.
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It depends on how you look at it. Match rates can obviously be deceiving for the reasons we discussed, but ultimately competitiveness is determined by how many people want spots, and how many people get spots.
If everyone that goes into specialty X is AOA with 260's on step 1, but there are 40 applicants for 45 spots, then that specialty is certainly gifted with great minds, but not particularly competitive. Now, if there were really 100 people wanting specialty X, but 55 of them didn't apply because they didn't think they had the stats, that sort of muddies the waters....
I remember you mentioning a few years ago that the number of applicants for breast were starting to outgrow the number of spots. As the specialty gains exposure, this trend will likely continue. Females wanting a cancer-centered, lifestyle-friendly practice will have to work pretty hard to get in.
In my opinion, breast oncology is the most rapidly evolving surgical subspecialty, which is why it's really hard for a non-fellowship-trained surgeon to offer up-to-date care. As fast as breast practices are moving, who knows where things will be in 10 years....except likely closer to the ground.
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heyooooooo!
thanks for all the info, I just wanted to see how competitive different fellowships are when I apply for it in upcoming year. I heard MIS was competitive this year with match rate of 67%, and is colorectal becoming the 3rd or 4th hardest fellowship to get in. What do you need to have a chance for colorectal these days
Exactly.
Yep. the number of applicants has exceeded the number of positions since at least 2005 (when I first paid attention). Even with the rapid growth of programs (before the SSO embargo), there were still enough applicants to exceed positions.
There needs to be more "ManMeat" though; too much estrogen and fashion competition at the meetings.
The ASBS has grown to be the largest subspecialty organization of the ACS.
ba-dum tssss
FYI Manmeet is a woman. So its closer to 90% females in the fellowship, pretty similar to my experience on the interview trail this year.
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So, not even Manmeet has Manmeat....
Good LORs, good ABSITE scores, presentations & publications will get you the interviews. As the fellowship is only for 1 year they are looking for someone they can get along with. So, the rank order list depends upon how they feel about you during the day of the interview. Colorectal surgery is a small world, phone calls do go a long way.
There needs to be more "ManMeat" though; too much estrogen and fashion competition at the meetings.
Fashion competition? 😕
The meetings, like at PRS meetings, can be somewhat of a fashion show at ASBS and others. We gals spend a lot of time comparing shoes. Not sure about CTS but I've found that society meetings often have an unwritten dress code--SSO for example is the black suit meeting. ASBS is much more girly colors for the women and more casual for the men.
I was at ASBS this year (for the first time) and totally agree. I had packed what I thought was fairly fashionable and formal for a meeting, and didn't feel overdressed at. All. I spent most of the boring sessions (which actually there were very few) examining shoes and outfits. And accessories. It's probably the best accessorized general surgery meeting I would wager.
haha I think the topic completely changed. Is there any chance of doing colorectal without research/publication?
I'll let you know after I attend my first STS/AATS meeting!
