SURVEY:: Different models for reasonable associateship compensation

[minpark2000]

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Prospective/current associates (or dentists who've hired associates):

I know there are different models out there for compensating associates.
I'm curious to know what models are most common, and which ones are the most "fair" in your opinion.

For example, I've heard of:

35% of collection, 0% of lab costs.
or
37% of collection, 50% of lab costs.
or
40% of collection, 100% of lab costs.

What other models have you heard of?
Without getting into too many other elements of the agreement, what are other big parts to a compensation formula?

Thanks all.

 

[toothcaries]

"fair" is whatever you and the owner doc agree on...

it really depends on each invidual situation.

you can do a "break even" analysis..

involves knowing the the total expenses for a practice...determining the adjusted overhead rate (cost to practice for each dollar generated by associate)...
subtracting adjusted overhead rate from 100% will give u the max percentage of collections the owner can pay without losing money (break even point for owner).

from here...you negociate.
🙂
your predetermined income needs level vs profit for owner.

other compensation methods include % production, rental fee, salary....

 

[c132]

Prospective/current associates (or dentists who've hired associates):

I know there are different models out there for compensating associates.
I'm curious to know what models are most common, and which ones are the most "fair" in your opinion.

For example, I've heard of:

35% of collection, 0% of lab costs.
or
37% of collection, 50% of lab costs.
or
40% of collection, 100% of lab costs.

What other models have you heard of?
Without getting into too many other elements of the agreement, what are other big parts to a compensation formula?

Thanks all.

Your gonna find many associates who aren't willing to pay you what they should. Tell them to go and stick a carrot in it! I heard of offers in the 18% whatever you make etc... Don't take less than 25% of what you make. That is minium, if they say they are losing money off of you, then go find another doc that doesn't tell lies! My friend is working for 20% right now and he figured up he made 112,000 last year, and after all lab/split fees, then he made the doc around 85,000. That is a piece of crap in my book. A dentist should make around 5000-10000 out of you in my opinion. Thats after you half the rent/new costs etc...
Look long and hard before you join up as an associate, for you could get shafted! Also look at the type of dentist that you are working for and how good he/she is. I know some people who jumped in to a job because it paid good, then they turned around and hated it because the dentist was type A personality while they were type B.

 

[toothcaries]

depends on what you are looking for...


maybe for the first position maybe working in an environment that would force you to be efficient would be a good idea...
i know folks that were well over the 6 figure mark (making 30% production) going this route

...also, to be honest, i may take less if the owner would be a great mentor..and i'd learn a great deal.


just figure out what u need in terms of income...and go from there.

 

[swiminh2o]

you can do a "break even" analysis..

involves knowing the the total expenses for a practice...determining the adjusted overhead rate (cost to practice for each dollar generated by associate)...
subtracting adjusted overhead rate from 100% will give u the max percentage of collections the owner can pay without losing money (break even point for owner).

Toothcaries,

Could you give an example of what you are talking about with actual numbers? How do you figure the cost to practice/dollar of associate production if you haven't worked as an associate in the office yet?

 

[UNLV OMS GUNNABE]

depends on what you are looking for...


maybe for the first position maybe working in an environment that would force you to be efficient would be a good idea...
i folks that were well over 6 figures (making 30% production) going this route

...also, to be honest, i may take less if the owner would be a great mentor..and i'd learn a great deal.


just figure out what u need in terms of income...and go from there.

So, does well over 6 figures mean 7-8 figures? If so, wow. jk

 

[toothcaries]

Toothcaries,

Could you give an example of what you are talking about with actual numbers? How do you figure the cost to practice/dollar of associate production if you haven't worked as an associate in the office yet?

i'll try.
this info is from the the ada's practice management series..
(the ada has mucho good info for new dentists)

gross collection $600k
expenses $390k
overhead 65%
add'n fixed expenses due to new assoc:
-add'n op $15k; op expense amortized over 10 years $1.5k
-add'n assistant 28.5k
-total annual cost 30k
inc in overhead (30k/600k) 5%
projected overhead will =70%

lets say associate expenses (lab, auto, insurance, dues, CE, retirement, ect) =19%
the adjusted overhead (true cost of services associate produces) is 51%

max the owner can pay associate = 100%- adj overhead..which will be 49%

the owner wants 5% profit.

therefore the associate is paid 44% of dental collections in the example.
...associate pays all lab/professional expenses.
...example does not consider inc'd revenue assoc brings in. (make adjustment at end of first year.
...the expenses were a high estimate.

 

[no2thdk999]

A dentist should make around 5000-10000 out of you in my opinion.

No way am I taking on a new associate and all the stress and expense that goes along with it for a lousy return of $3-6k/year after taxes. I'll just work an extra Friday and call it even.


I've typed this before but if I had to do it over again I would be an associate where I would get the best mentoring on how to be the best dentist I can almost regardless of salary. I can think of guy's offices I would work in for $35k/ year just to profit from their knowledge. $120k your first year is great for a quick lifestyle improvement but if all you learned to do was hustle insurance companies and treat people as fast as you can I think you could do better.

I could care less what the senior doc's overhead is and I wouldn't base my pay on it. If he's got the midas touch when it comes to spending and paying staff why should I get less? Also a lot of docs will quasi "cook" the books to keep the IRS off of their back. i.e the misses and three kids might be "employed" by the practice to maximize their retirement savings and get some profit taxed at the kids lower rate. All of that goes into calculating the overhead.

Find out what the prevailing rate is in your area. Here it's around 30%. I would consider anything from 25% upto 40% (with some lab cost sharing) to be fair to both parties. I would not work on collections and I would not work without a daily minimum because the people who collect the money and set my schedule don't answer to me. That might change if I really trusted the owner.

My best advice would be find a dentist you are comfortable with, has a good reputation, treats patients well, you can respect, and drives a Mercedes. Learn as much as you can from them and try to make a dollar or two while you're at it.

JMHO
Rob

 

[swiminh2o]

Thanks. So is the ADA practice management series available to students and at what price? Anyone else used it and how did you like it?

 

[c132]

No way am I taking on a new associate and all the stress and expense that goes along with it for a lousy return of $3-6k/year after taxes. I'll just work an extra Friday and call it even.

JMHO
Rob

So how much do you think is fair for you to make from an associate? I said after all the EXPENSE was taken out, you walk away with 5 to 10k a year, which in my book is fair as all get up. Thats after you half the rent, and EVERYTHING else...

I know where I want to work, so if I can't get the right associate job, I will open up my own practice. Sure it may be a little shaky the first year, but I know people who have done it!!!

If I wanted a mentor, I would go get a GPR!!!!

 

[toothcaries]

Thanks. So is the ADA practice management series available to students and at what price? Anyone else used it and how did you like it?

not sure on the prices..
..but here is a link to the ada product catalog..
http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/topics/dentalpractice.asp
(i think they sent a copy to me free for attending some seminar)

 

[minpark2000]

So how much do you think is fair for you to make from an associate? I said after all the EXPENSE was taken out, you walk away with 5 to 10k a year, which in my book is fair as all get up. Thats after you half the rent, and EVERYTHING else...

I know where I want to work, so if I can't get the right associate job, I will open up my own practice. Sure it may be a little shaky the first year, but I know people who have done it!!!

If I wanted a mentor, I would go get a GPR!!!!

I agree with the comment disagreeing with the $5000 - $10,000 a year.
If I were the practice owner, it wouldn't make sense to walk away with $10,000.

Everything is about cost/benefit, and why would anyone in this forum (mostly students or young dentists?) want to be a practice owner one day, and deal with the headache of making your associate happy (compensation-wise AND learning-wise), just for $10k?

When I look at any business, whether it's a computer consulting firm, McDonald's, or even a dental office, I expect that each "producer" to produce 3 times their salary.

1/3 would go to overhead, 1/3 would go to profits, and 1/3 would go to the producing employee.... very roughly speaking.

In a dental office, if the associate wasn't netting the practice owner at least $100k in profits, it would be very hard to justify bringing that associate in, in my opinion.

$10k is way too low... $50k might seem tempting, but then when you consider that most associates will leave to start their own practice, you're inviting a situation where your office becomes a revolving door, which many practice owners don't like the idea of. Many would prefer to keep their patient number manageable, instead of bringing in an associate, increasing the schedule, only to have them leave. All of this wouldn't be worth it for just $50k extra, in my opinion. When you start getting up to the $100k or more profits, THEN it would be more tempting for me to put up with the extra work of keeping the associate happy, and then dealing with the time down the road when (most likely) the associate will leave.

As for the "costs" and expenses, please tell me if I'm wrong, but my view would be something like this (cobbled together from reading various articles, both inside/outside the dental field)...

A practice owner has various fixed costs (lease, utility, admin/reception staff, assistants, hygienists, etc.). There are other costs such as his/her own supply costs and lab costs. Covering this runs 60-65%.

When an add'l associate is brought in, extra costs might include: assistants for the associate, add'l admin staff to cover the add'l tasks w/ scheduling and billing, supplies, lab.

Using real numbers, if the practice was collecting $1M before the associate, and after the associate is collecting $1.4M, the extra $400k that the associate is generating should cover:
- extra assistants ($80K for two for year)
- extra supplies ($12k for year)
- extra admin ($28k for one for year)
- extra lab ($40k for year)
- 35% associate's compensation ($140k for year)

Though being oversimplified a bit, the above will net the practice owner a profit of $100k, give or take a few thousand.

Some ways the practice owner would protect him/herself would include hiring only one assistant when first bringing in an associate, until his/her speed improves, thus necessating a second (or more) assistants. Also, the add'l admin staff wouldn't be brought in until the scheduling/billing got that much more busy. Lab/supplies pay for themselves of course.

As long as the patients will be there, the practice owner shouldn't lose out. However, if they do decide to bring an associate in, the practice owner would definitely make more than $10k.

Regards.

 

[toothcaries]

are u a practice owner?
dentistry is an anomaly.
we see profits of 35-40% of our collections.

i'm not out in the real world...so i could be wrong...but a 30% profit margin in ANY open business would be an unreal number.



anyways..
if the owner makes 5% from 400k...that is $20,000.
...plus the benefits from recall.



...if the practice is producing enough dentistry to collect 7 figures...my guess is i could probably learn a thing or two at that office.
i would take the 35% of collections if all things were equal. (with a $400/day min plus lab costs)
🙂

I agree with the comment disagreeing with the $5000 - $10,000 a year.
If I were the practice owner, it wouldn't make sense to walk away with $10,000.

Everything is about cost/benefit, and why would anyone in this forum (mostly students or young dentists?) want to be a practice owner one day, and deal with the headache of making your associate happy (compensation-wise AND learning-wise), just for $10k?

When I look at any business, whether it's a computer consulting firm, McDonald's, or even a dental office, I expect that each "producer" to produce 3 times their salary.

1/3 would go to overhead, 1/3 would go to profits, and 1/3 would go to the producing employee.... very roughly speaking.

In a dental office, if the associate wasn't netting the practice owner at least $100k in profits, it would be very hard to justify bringing that associate in, in my opinion.

$10k is way too low... $50k might seem tempting, but then when you consider that most associates will leave to start their own practice, you're inviting a situation where your office becomes a revolving door, which many practice owners don't like the idea of. Many would prefer to keep their patient number manageable, instead of bringing in an associate, increasing the schedule, only to have them leave. All of this wouldn't be worth it for just $50k extra, in my opinion. When you start getting up to the $100k or more profits, THEN it would be more tempting for me to put up with the extra work of keeping the associate happy, and then dealing with the time down the road when (most likely) the associate will leave.

As for the "costs" and expenses, please tell me if I'm wrong, but my view would be something like this (cobbled together from reading various articles, both inside/outside the dental field)...

A practice owner has various fixed costs (lease, utility, admin/reception staff, assistants, hygienists, etc.). There are other costs such as his/her own supply costs and lab costs. Covering this runs 60-65%.

When an add'l associate is brought in, extra costs might include: assistants for the associate, add'l admin staff to cover the add'l tasks w/ scheduling and billing, supplies, lab.

Using real numbers, if the practice was collecting $1M before the associate, and after the associate is collecting $1.4M, the extra $400k that the associate is generating should cover:
- extra assistants ($80K for two for year)
- extra supplies ($12k for year)
- extra admin ($28k for one for year)
- extra lab ($40k for year)
- 35% associate's compensation ($140k for year)

Though being oversimplified a bit, the above will net the practice owner a profit of $100k, give or take a few thousand.

Some ways the practice owner would protect him/herself would include hiring only one assistant when first bringing in an associate, until his/her speed improves, thus necessating a second (or more) assistants. Also, the add'l admin staff wouldn't be brought in until the scheduling/billing got that much more busy. Lab/supplies pay for themselves of course.

As long as the patients will be there, the practice owner shouldn't lose out. However, if they do decide to bring an associate in, the practice owner would definitely make more than $10k.

Regards.

 

[no2thdk999]

So how much do you think is fair for you to make from an associate? I said after all the EXPENSE was taken out, you walk away with 5 to 10k a year, which in my book is fair as all get up. Thats after you half the rent, and EVERYTHING else...

If I wanted a mentor, I would go get a GPR!!!!

A GPR is a great place to learn additional skills but it is not a place to learn how to run a successful private practice. I don't know many dentists who left a successful private practice to take a salaried position at a hospital. I'm sure it happens but I'd wager it's the minority.

So let's say the new assocaite steps into a practice that can already support two dentists and makes $500k the first year. The chairs, staff, supplies, advertising, etc to produce that amount would be roughly $300K if you use an average 60% overhead. Then we pay the associate.

If all the owner gets is $10k (to then pay taxes on) for his investment of $490K that is a miserable return. He'd do better putting the money in a savings account and wouldn't have any of the risk, hassles, or stress associated with a two dentist practice.

I think the $100k number below is a reasonable amount of profit to make off of an associate's labor. In that number though I would include the money saved by being able to take a vacation and not close the office, have someone to share call with, being able to "dump" kids and dentures on someone else, etc...


JMHO
Rob

 

[c132]

I think the $100k number below is a reasonable amount of profit to make off of an associate's labor. In that number though I would include the money saved by being able to take a vacation and not close the office, have someone to share call with, being able to "dump" kids and dentures on someone else, etc...


JMHO
Rob

GET REAL!!!!!!!!!! COME on man, 100k? who are you really kidding? Again, I think 10k after everything, including taxes, which you obviously didn't read, is more than fair. IF you can talk some poor graduating dental student to come to work for you, I feel sorry for them.

If someone wanted me to do that, I would simply open a practice up next door. If I could make an extra 100k that you would take, why not open my own practice up and pay for it in 5 or 6 years with that extra 100k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would feel comfortable to say that some people in my class are not fast enough to hardly clear 100k on their own. You gonna take that? NO-body in their right mind, or with any speed whatsoever, will EVER work for you if you take 100k home,the associate dentist profits. Your the type that shouldn't be allowed to have an associate!

 

[toothcaries]

????
where did that $490k investment come from?
i must have missed something.

if there is no associate...then what the associate would have produced...does not get produced.
(or something)

anyways..
if u can extract $100,000 from your associates...all power to you.

So let's say the new assocaite steps into a practice that can already support two dentists and makes $500k the first year. The chairs, staff, supplies, advertising, etc to produce that amount would be roughly $300K if you use an average 60% overhead. Then we pay the associate.

If all the owner gets is $10k (to then pay taxes on) for his investment of $490K that is a miserable return. He'd do better putting the money in a savings account and wouldn't have any of the risk, hassles, or stress associated with a two dentist practice.

 

[no2thdk999]

????
where did that $490k investment come from?
i must have missed something.

This is using my example of an associate that produces $500K in a year. The capitalist c132 thinks $10k is a good profit on this. If the practice earns $500K and I only get to keep $10k, that means I had to spend $490K to earn $10K (total = $500K).

I will make all of you a great deal! For every $49 you send me I'll send you $50 back in 365 days. I'll get rich investing and you'll be happy with your 2% return, we all win!

Why would I want to spend $490K to make $10K when I can work an extra Friday or three to get the same profit and not have to spend the $490K?

If you think your future senior doc is providing you with a place to work out of the goodness of his/her heart, think again! Tell all your patients you'll work on them for free and see how long you last. You are a profit/ lifestyle center. You exist in the practice to make the boss richer or make his life easier.

Look at the numbers put up by minpark2000. I think it's a little high on the lab and staff and a little low on supplies but a good average. In his/her scenario you take home 35% of your production (pretty generous pay) and the boss still gets $100K. As he/she points out it's cheaper to add an associate to an existing practice than start an entirely new practice so the overhead is lower.

Win-Win for both parties. If it's not it won't last.

JMHO
Rob

 

[c132]

WANTED: GOOD HARD WORKING ASSOCIATE DENTIST TO TAKE OVER PART OF DENTAL OFFICE. MUST GIVE ACTIVE DENTIST $100,000 OF PROFIT, THEN CAN TAKE HOME THE OTHER 62k THAT YOU MAY AVG A YEAR IF YOU ARE LUCKY. ONLY IDIOTS NEED APPLY


I am gonna post this up in my dental school and see how many takers. Rob whats your phone number so I can post it beside of it?

GET REAL MAN, YOU MAKE NO SENSE.

 

[no2thdk999]

WANTED: GOOD HARD WORKING ASSOCIATE DENTIST TO TAKE OVER PART OF DENTAL OFFICE. MUST GIVE ACTIVE DENTIST $100,000 OF PROFIT, THEN CAN TAKE HOME THE OTHER 62k THAT YOU MAY AVG A YEAR IF YOU ARE LUCKY. ONLY IDIOTS NEED APPLY


I am gonna post this up in my dental school and see how many takers. Rob whats your phone number so I can post it beside of it?

GET REAL MAN, YOU MAKE NO SENSE.

c132 I had a long smart assed reply all ready for you but realized I was young and foolish once too. Let me just say I'll bet you change your mind if you are ever in the position to hire an associate yourself.

Ok I'm a smart ass after all. Take this to your first associate interview.

"Ok boss, I know it's going to cost you a lot of money, stomach lining, time, and effort to employ me here, and I really appreciate that. There is a lot of risk you're taking on investing in me by giving me a place to work where I don't have to hire/fire/train staff, don't have to pay any bills, didn't have to take out a loan for $450k to buy the place, don't have to have any commitment to the long term success of the practice, don't have to pay for equipment repairs, etc... I basically show up with nothing but my two bare hands, use your stuff to work all day, get paid, and have no responsibility. Now I really appreciate this and to show you how much it means to me, for the 200 days I'll work this year I'm going to give you $25 EACH DAY! That's right $5000/year and all of this can be yours! Now let's talk about my benefits"

Did you read minpark2000's numbers? He/she had you taking home $140k! Don't underestimate how much a smart dentist can make off of you even with you earning a great salary.

JMHO
Rob

 

[DcS]

GET REAL!!!!!!!!!! COME on man, 100k? who are you really kidding? Again, I think 10k after everything, including taxes, which you obviously didn't read, is more than fair. IF you can talk some poor graduating dental student to come to work for you, I feel sorry for them.

If someone wanted me to do that, I would simply open a practice up next door. If I could make an extra 100k that you would take, why not open my own practice up and pay for it in 5 or 6 years with that extra 100k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would feel comfortable to say that some people in my class are not fast enough to hardly clear 100k on their own. You gonna take that? NO-body in their right mind, or with any speed whatsoever, will EVER work for you if you take 100k home,the associate dentist profits. Your the type that shouldn't be allowed to have an associate!

I'm not sure if you realize it but you are way, way off on this one. If you don't want to believe people here (like Rob who are practicing dentists), then I suggest you go post this on dentaltown. When you do, please post a link in this thread, if you are so convinced. I'm sure the guys over there could use a good laugh too.

 

[c132]

There is a lot of risk you're taking on investing in me by giving me a place to work where I don't have to hire/fire/train staff, don't have to pay any bills, didn't have to take out a loan for $450k to buy the place, don't have to have any commitment to the long term success of the practice, don't have to pay for equipment repairs, etc... I basically show up with nothing but my two bare hands, use your stuff to work all day, get paid, and have no responsibility. Now I really appreciate this and to show you how much it means to me, for the 200 days I'll work this year I'm going to give you $25 EACH DAY! That's right $5000/year and all of this can be yours! Now let's talk about my benefits"

JMHO
Rob

What in the heck are you talking about? I never said any of that.

#1 Go and RE-read my post. I said after they split the cost of bills, which includes repairs etc..

#2 The figure is AFTER LAB FEES, AFTER paying for the associates assistant, AFTER ALL THAT.

#3 How are you gonna take 100,000 from a payday from an associate if they don't even make that much in the first place? The avg dentist made what 160k last year? So if you take 100,000K from them, like I said after everything is taken out already and strictly profit for you, then you made almost 2 times as much as the associate dentist for the associate dentists work

I think you are saying the 100,000 dollar figure in there without the associate paying bills, etc... which is NOT repeat NOT what I originally posted.
What I said was what % of the take home money of the associate dentist I feel should go to the practicing dentist.

SO here let me give you a model, since your mind is like in first grade you can't figure this out without a model

I "CLEAR" 100,000 after getting EVERYTHING, read it, EVERYTHING paid for. THat is 1/2 the rent if they are renting, thats 1/2 the payments, all the lab for my cases, etc.... EVERYTHING. Which 100,000 is a good number for a first year associate to clear, I think you even with your blocked attitude can admit to that.

THEN you are saying you should take the 100,000 that the associate makes, leaving him pocketing 0. Yes, now that I have explained to you how DUMB and IGNORANT your post was, it is shocking!!!

NO more likely you are going to "POCKET" meaning put into your pocket and take home, around 10,000 from the associate, leaving him taking home 90,000 and you 10,000 from the PROFIT that is made, again, the bills etc... are already taken out.

See overall you will be "making" way more than the 10k, in the fact that the associtate pays 1/2 the rent etc....

I am sorry that it came down to me actually typing it up in a book for you to see how stupid your 100k figure sounds.

 

[c132]

I'm not sure if you realize it but you are way, way off on this one. If you don't want to believe people here (like Rob who are practicing dentists), then I suggest you go post this on dentaltown. When you do, please post a link in this thread, if you are so convinced. I'm sure the guys over there could use a good laugh too.

FUNNY THING BEING, I HAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They told me that this was the number which is about what happens. That the dentist takes about 7-10 percent of the profit of the associate.

Funny how you guys can't read into a post and realize that!!!

 

[JMJRDH1]

Hello all,

This is my first post on this wonderful forum that I feel sooooooooooooooooovery fortunate to have found as I take my first steps towards dental school. Ok, preamble is done!! 🙂

I am not a dentist........yet........but I am dental hygienist and former dental office manager. I can tell you that there is absolutely no logical reason for a dentist who UNDERSTANDS THE BUSINESS OF DENTISTRY to hire an associate FOR THE PURPOSE IS INCRESASING THEIR INCOME if they stand to gain an miserly 10K per year.

On a percentage basis, 10K is peanuts when compared to the annual gross of a practice in the 500K range, and even less as income increases. The stress and financial outlay of bringing on an associate if far too great for such a small sum. There are sufficient methods for increasing the income of a practice such that this methodology should be considered a last resort if 10k was your only motivating factor.

Heck, if youwere lucky enough to have your hygienist(s) treating 2000 patients a year, you could just raise the cost of a prophylaxis $5.00 and be done with it! 😀

 

[no2thdk999]

What in the heck are you talking about? I never said any of that.

Well I'm sorry you've taken this personally. Hopefull this reply will help you see where we mostly agree except where you are wrong.

#1 Go and RE-read my post. I said after they split the cost of bills, which includes repairs etc..

#2 The figure is AFTER LAB FEES, AFTER paying for the associates assistant, AFTER ALL THAT.

If you are splitting all the costs you're not really an associate but a partner or junior partner. I can't think of a single incident of an associate being billed for equipment repair, advertising, supplies, staff salary, etc... If that is the type of deal you think we're talking about, then yes, $100K profit from that type of person's work would not be customary. I thought the OP was about associate salaries, I did not catch your switch to partnerships.

#3 How are you gonna take 100,000 from a payday from an associate if they don't even make that much in the first place? The avg dentist made what 160k last year? So if you take 100,000K from them, like I said after everything is taken out already and strictly profit for you, then you made almost 2 times as much as the associate dentist for the associate dentists work

You're talking about partnership type deals again. If you make $100K you probably produced close to $300K. If you only produced $300k I would not expect the senior doc to get $100K but closer to $60-75K which would leave about $140K to pay for the increased overhead of the associate. Please note that you get the $100K and the dentist gets a healthy profit of $60-75K on his investment of $240K. Everybody wins!

I think you are saying the 100,000 dollar figure in there without the associate paying bills, etc... which is NOT repeat NOT what I originally posted.
What I said was what % of the take home money of the associate dentist I feel should go to the practicing dentist.

Still talking about an arangement other than the typical associate but still wrong. Some associates pay the lab bill but that's it. The senior doc should get 0% of the associate's take home. Part of the risk assumed by the senior doc is the chance of no profit. Say the associate is a slouch and only produces 100K. The associate takes home $30K the overhead was say $75K and the senior doc loses $5k.

SO here let me give you a model, since your mind is like in first grade you can't figure this out without a model

I "CLEAR" 100,000 after getting EVERYTHING, read it, EVERYTHING paid for. THat is 1/2 the rent if they are renting, thats 1/2 the payments, all the lab for my cases, etc.... EVERYTHING. Which 100,000 is a good number for a first year associate to clear, I think you even with your blocked attitude can admit to that.

Ad hominem attacks when the argument is weak! Are you a liberal democrat?

THEN you are saying you should take the 100,000 that the associate makes, leaving him pocketing 0. Yes, now that I have explained to you how DUMB and IGNORANT your post was, it is shocking!!!

No that's not what I'm saying at all. Again I'm talking about your typical associate agreement where the junior doc is not saddled with bills for equipment repair, staff salaries, rent, etc. You have created some kind of UBER-ASSOCIATE where you pay for half of the practice overhead and should be considered a partner but still get the shaft on the payola. If you could find an agreement like this, and took it, and your office's Cerec 3D machine broke the first month you were there, would you take a $45K pay cut to cover half of the repairs? If so you are hired.

See overall you will be "making" way more than the 10k, in the fact that the associtate pays 1/2 the rent etc....

Exactly! You've made it entirely convoluted with your new uber-associate position but yes ideally around $100K of "made" money per associate would make it worth while. With your way of thinking if I only have to pay half of the rent because the uber-associate is paying the other half, the half of the rent that I no longer have to pay is now profit earned that goes into my pocket.

I am sorry that it came down to me actually typing it up in a book for you to see how stupid your 100k figure sounds.

Actually I think you finally came around to see it my way.
😍

JMH been an associate for a while now O
Rob

 

[ItsGavinC]

Rob, that seemed like a logical and well-thought out post.

 

[c132]

ROB, i am not going to argue with ignorance. You are just an associate. You probably haven't even looked around at other offers! When you do decide to climb up on your own, you hire your little heart away, and if you are LUCKY enough to find an associate to lick your balls for you, then so be it!!!

I can not see how an associate can LOSE you money, if they are paid on a profit margin bases.

Maybe you need to go and take some associateship classes, they offer them toward CE hours I think. The people whom I talked with have taken many, and they have set me in my way to find the associateship when I graduate.

A fresh dentist can get screwed over by a dentist with too high hopes of filling his wallet from the associate. I have seen this with my own two eyes.

END OF ARGUMENT!

 

[minpark2000]

Hello all,

This is my first post on this wonderful forum that I feel sooooooooooooooooovery fortunate to have found as I take my first steps towards dental school. Ok, preamble is done!! 🙂

I am not a dentist........yet........but I am dental hygienist and former dental office manager. I can tell you that there is absolutely no logical reason for a dentist who UNDERSTANDS THE BUSINESS OF DENTISTRY to hire an associate FOR THE PURPOSE IS INCRESASING THEIR INCOME if they stand to gain an miserly 10K per year.

On a percentage basis, 10K is peanuts when compared to the annual gross of a practice in the 500K range, and even less as income increases. The stress and financial outlay of bringing on an associate if far too great for such a small sum. There are sufficient methods for increasing the income of a practice such that this methodology should be considered a last resort if 10k was your only motivating factor.

Heck, if youwere lucky enough to have your hygienist(s) treating 2000 patients a year, you could just raise the cost of a prophylaxis $5.00 and be done with it! 😀

Hear hear...

Guys (and ladies), let's calm down just a bit. It's funny that there are some who seem to be trying to convince the others on how MUCH money they'll make, and others who are resisting - as if an insult was being hurled at them.

(Reminds me of the LVI (las vegas inst.) forum discussions right now, where insults are flying back and forth.. and they are supposed to be the more prestigious/successful of the bunch...)

Anyway, I say again (in agreement with the above quote and a previous posting) that $10k wouldn't be worth it. I'd rather send my (non-existent) son/daughter to work at McDonald's to bring home an extra $10k.

To the question(s) about why you wouldn't just open up your own practice next door if one could get $100k *profit* from an associate, the answer is... most do. Something like 90% are in solo practice, right? Maybe using bad number, but it's really high. Also, for those associates who have $300k in school loans won't be in a position to get loans to start their own practice. Other new dentists are hesitant to setup their own practice, since they usually have little/no business experience nor training.

I guess the numbers I was using in my hypothetical was for a practice in a fairly large city. The folks who are fortunate enough to live in a peaceful non-city area also enjoy (probably) much lower cost-of-living. Maybe in those settings, the *profit* from an add'l associate might be less than $100k, but I still don't think it's as low as $5-10k.

Also, I am assuming that we're not talking about an extremely bad situation where the practice owner has 8 associates chained up, in a slash & hack type of insurance practice.

Revisiting the hypothetical, I would say that a single dentist (practice owner) might have 60-65% in expenses, which will cover his/her office rent/lease, supplies, payroll, etc.

By adding an add'l associate, it only makes sense that the associate's collections would net a higher profit margin, since most fixed costs have already been taken care of by the original/owner dentist. (assuming that the associate brings in enough to cover his/her own expenses, such as add'l payroll and lab/supplies).

For me, I would hire an associate once my own schedule was starting to look too "fat", and the associate could take over some of that extra load, AND when too many new patients were calling for slots which could only be filled by bringing in an extra associate.

Maybe the folks advocating the $5-10k profit are thinking of situations where the practice owner is trying to cut back his/her own hours (golf, baby, retiring, etc.)?

 

[minpark2000]

I think you are saying the 100,000 dollar figure in there without the associate paying bills, etc... which is NOT repeat NOT what I originally posted.
What I said was what % of the take home money of the associate dentist I feel should go to the practicing dentist.

If I were an associate, I would NEVER agree to pay for payroll, rent, equipment, etc. and THEN get only 35%. The practice owner is being UNFAIR!!! I've heard practice owners sit down with associates and try to claim that 65% of their collections are going to expenses, and so (sniffle sniffle) they aren't making a whole lot after the associate gets paid.

What they want you to think is this...
(Some practice owner's version)
Associate's collections: $400,000
Industry expense %: 65% ($260,000)
Associate pay (35% of collections) : $140,000
Leftover : $0 (awwwww.....)
They claim that by being frugal and careful, they might scrape a few % for profit...

To me, with all due respect to those owners who feel that way... the real numbers are more like this:
Associate's collections: $400,000
Add'l expense b/c associate: $140,000 (extra assistant(s), 100% lab bill, supplies, etc.)
Associate pay (35% of collections): $140,000
Leftover: $120,000 (hehehe....)

Again, some of the commentary is just for fun, but those numbers are pretty accurate. Ask the CPA's for those practice owners.

Also, the above is for:
- practice in a larger city
- practice where the owner dentist's schedule was overflowing
- not a chop shop

I originally started this thread to see what various folks in/near the field were seeing for Associate compensation agreements.

I've seen the three models:
35% collections w/ 0% lab bill
37% collections w/ 50% lab bill
40% collections w/ 100% lab bill

I think the best is the middle option (37%/50%), but that may be more situation/fact specific.

 

[no2thdk999]

ROB, i am not going to argue with ignorance.

Agreed. Have you noticed how 99% of the posters (and all of the ones who know what they're talking about) are agreeing with me?

I'm sure you'll figure out this topic eventually (or go broke). If you really want to learn it now, go back and answer my post line by line like I did for your's and we can continue.

Hugs and kisses,

Rob

 

[c132]

Agreed. Have you noticed how 99% of the posters (and all of the ones who know what they're talking about) are agreeing with me?

I'm sure you'll figure out this topic eventually (or go broke). If you really want to learn it now, go back and answer my post line by line like I did for your's and we can continue.

Hugs and kisses,

Rob

Remember you are on a student network. Not many students know about the ways that associateship can hurt you, lucky for me I have some close friends who have went or are rather going through it right now. And it varies greatly between the 4 of them.

Actually quite a few people have pm'ed me or rather emailed me on this issue! I told them they can either trust an associate whom obviously is getting no money, or a dentist who has practiced for 26 years who has had MANY associates. They went my way, just don't want to post, and truely I don't blame them, with you on here acting as though you KNOW IT ALL!

And you had better watch that hugs and kisses remark, I was starting to get worried about you a few posts ago.

I have better things to do than try and defend myself on a topic of which we disagree. I am comfortable in what I said, and I KNOW I will get a good associateship, as for you, thats your business. A professor at the school, whom just quit being an associate, said that there is about 1000 models for compensation and it all depends on who you work with, and why they are wanting an associate, which I strongly believe!

 

[no2thdk999]

Remember you are on a student network. Not many students know about the ways that associateship can hurt you, lucky for me I have some close friends who have went or are rather going through it right now. And it varies greatly between the 4 of them.

Actually quite a few people have pm'ed me or rather emailed me on this issue! I told them they can either trust an associate whom obviously is getting no money, or a dentist who has practiced for 26 years who has had MANY associates. They went my way, just don't want to post, and truely I don't blame them, with you on here acting as though you KNOW IT ALL!

And you had better watch that hugs and kisses remark, I was starting to get worried about you a few posts ago.

I have better things to do than try and defend myself on a topic of which we disagree. I am comfortable in what I said, and I KNOW I will get a good associateship, as for you, thats your business. A professor at the school, whom just quit being an associate, said that there is about 1000 models for compensation and it all depends on who you work with, and why they are wanting an associate, which I strongly believe!

Thanks for your concern about my monetary situation. Trust me, I'm doing just fine. You seem to think a good deal for the associate can't be a good deal for the senior doc. That is where you're wrong. If it's not a good deal for both parties it won't last.

I thought you would try to answer my post line by line. At least please explain to me how the senior dentist having his rent, repairs, and staff costs cut in half by the associate doesn't increase his profit (by possibly around $100k)

JMHO
Rob

 

[ShawnOne]

To me, with all due respect to those owners who feel that way... the real numbers are more like this:
Associate's collections: $400,000
Add'l expense b/c associate: $140,000 (extra assistant(s), 100% lab bill, supplies, etc.)
Associate pay (35% of collections): $140,000
Leftover: $120,000 (hehehe....)

This looks right to me. Of course the collections could vary greatly by office and dentist's skill.

 

[CraigWVU]

People come on, you can't be serious. You honestly are not letting your doc take that much off of you are you? If so go get another job for goodness sake, or take some classes on money management. I would say around 15-20k is a reasonable amount for the dentist to take from an associate.

You guys are dreaming. For one, an associate is not going to turn over 400k the first year they are out. Secondly, a doctor isn't going to stiff his associate with 100+k a year take home. GET REAL, NO associate would take this, well unless your just throwing money away.

Start you up a business if your doc is taking over 100k from you. If you turning out that much, then you can make a lot more owning your own stuff.

 

[toothcaries]

so..

it's safe to say the owner wants to make as much dinero as possible off the associate...

...and the associate does not want to be taken for a ride...or something.

People come on, you can't be serious. You honestly are not letting your doc take that much off of you are you? If so go get another job for goodness sake, or take some classes on money management. I would say around 15-20k is a reasonable amount for the dentist to take from an associate.

You guys are dreaming. For one, an associate is not going to turn over 400k the first year they are out. Secondly, a doctor isn't going to stiff his associate with 100+k a year take home. GET REAL, NO associate would take this, well unless your just throwing money away.

Start you up a business if your doc is taking over 100k from you. If you turning out that much, then you can make a lot more owning your own stuff.

 

[no2thdk999]

Ok, so you are a bright, charming, talented dentist who has grown his/her solo practice to produce about $600k per year out of 4 operatories. You are so well liked and popular that you have more patients than you can see and still work 32 hours a week and you're currently booked out 6 weeks in advance. You figure that you could do another $350K per year if you worked 12 hour days. You want to take advantage of all the excess potential in your practice but don't want to work any harder.

You could either:

Option A) Hire an associate to take care of the excess patient load

This means you will need to:
-Take out a loan to build an addition to the office for 1 or 2 more operatories
-Equip one or two operatories
-Hire and train one or two new assistants for the associate
-Hire and train an additional front desk person (part time)
-Hire an associate
-Your supply costs go up by 33%
-Your lab costs go up by 33%

For all this investment, trouble, and risk some people think you should get around $5-20k


Option B) Raise your fees 10-15% and refer out less profitable procedures

This means you get
-An immediate increase in profit of 10-15% (60-90K in this example)
-Net profit goes up because you're no longer doing as many less profitable procedures.
-Lab costs stay the same
-Supply costs stay the same
-No associate to pay
-No assistants to hire
-No loan for adding operatories


What would be in your best financial interest?


JMHO
Rob

 

[CraigWVU]

Option A) Hire an associate to take care of the excess patient load

This means you will need to:
-Take out a loan to build an addition to the office for 1 or 2 more operatories
-Equip one or two operatories
-Hire and train one or two new assistants for the associate
-Hire and train an additional front desk person (part time)
-Hire an associate
-Your supply costs go up by 33%
-Your lab costs go up by 33%

For all this investment, trouble, and risk some people think you should get around $5-20k


Option B) Raise your fees 10-15% and refer out less profitable procedures

This means you get
-An immediate increase in profit of 10-15% (60-90K in this example)
-Net profit goes up because you're no longer doing as many less profitable procedures.
-Lab costs stay the same
-Supply costs stay the same
-No associate to pay
-No assistants to hire
-No loan for adding operatories


What would be in your best financial interest?


JMHO
Rob

Thats where you are absent minded. See most associates work for dentists who have 2 offices. While the dentist is at one office, then the associate is at the other and vice versa. SO therefore there is NO need to add anything, or train anything since the staff is already there in the office, and the dentist wouldn't be making anything if he/she just shut their door, so they hire an associate and make some additional money from them and get to select their patients.

This is the advantage of the dentist having the associate. See whenever they do a screening day, and accept new patients, the dentist will schedule most of the HIGH dollar procedures on his time, and leave the associate with the others. This increases the associates skills while letting the dentist raise his own profits by 25-75k on average per year. Then the dentist takes around 15--20 k from the associate and then the dentist can gain around 95k per year extra, just for having the associate present.

ITs NOT simply taking 100k like you said above from the associate, but simply the dentist is MAKING more with his own hands by selecting his patient pool.

Sure if you work for a small time, maw and paw dental office as an associate you should take the pay cut, but Why would you do that? Find an associateship that will work for you. The above way will let the associate make really really good money, while keeping the dentist satisfied as well.

I think your experiences are limited and you are not qualified to be posting on this particular subject, other than to share your specific situation. There is a TON of different circumstances to consider and to just pick out one and bash it as you did earlier isn't very smart.

CRAIG

 

[ItsGavinC]

Thats where you are absent minded. See most associates work for dentists who have 2 offices.

You've got to be kidding me. Some, yes. But "most"? No way, not even close. It seems like that statement violates the final sentence of your post--there ARE tons of circumstances.

 

[CraigWVU]

You've got to be kidding me. Some, yes. But "most"? No way, not even close. It seems like that statement violates the final sentence of your post--there ARE tons of circumstances.

Gavin, I "KID" you not. Thats generally the reason dentists hire an associate. I have called for 5 associate positions, which had the highest advertised salaries, and 4 of them have 2 or more offices. YEs most dentists only have one office, but most dentists do not need/desire an associate. SO yes, I would imagine somewhere in the 50% range of the dentists hiring associates have 2+ offices.

There are tons of circumstances, and the guy earlier was trying to get away with acting as though the dentist should get away with taking that much money from you, but in real life, it is not that way at all, if you find the right associateship. And that is why it is VERY important to shop around and avoid the guys who will try and take that much from you!!!! Someone willing to add on to his office just to acquire associates are out for one thing, and that is to make money from the associate, which is the kind of job you will want to stay away from.

 

[ItsGavinC]

SO yes, I would imagine somewhere in the 50% range of the dentists hiring associates have 2+ offices.

Cool. I wasn't aware of that and my experience has been different than that. I learn something new every day! 😀

 

[toothcaries]

CraigWVU,
where have you been looking to find potential associate opportunities?

 

[hafido]

c132,
I will not proclaim myself an expert in the field of dental collections/expenditures, but I understand business well and your so called "model" appears ludicrous. Most dentists in there right mind would not go into a business transaction as the one you are stating to only make a mere 2% in profits. Dentists are capitalists as well as care providers. According to your grossly unrealistic "model", an associate that comes on board to a practice who produces $500k, would essentialy clear somewhere in the ball park of $250k-$320k per year as income if your model prevailed after paying out the $5-$10 pittance to the Sr. Doc. If that were the case, wouldn't most Dentists stay as associates? I have never heard of an associate paying for plant/building/employees (maybe possible, but I cannot see any one in there right mind aggreeing to such a proposal). I think the problem you have with the Sr. Docs making $85-$100k off of the labor of others is that you are not seeing it from a business perspective, and it is an absolute must in a field like dentistry. I assume you have had a job in the past: what employer would be in business if they only made 2% off of each employee? Obviously profit margins differ between businesses, but you get the idea. Call it what you want , but the plain and simple truth is it's capitalism. Your associates will love you, as a matter of fact, I would love to work for you for a few years.

 

[CraigWVU]

c132,
I will not proclaim myself an expert in the field of dental collections/expenditures, but I understand business well and your so called "model" appears ludicrous. Most dentists in there right mind would not go into a business transaction as the one you are stating to only make a mere 2% in profits. Dentists are capitalists as well as care providers. According to your grossly unrealistic "model", an associate that comes on board to a practice who produces $500k, would essentialy clear somewhere in the ball park of $250k-$320k per year as income if your model prevailed after paying out the $5-$10 pittance to the Sr. Doc. If that were the case, wouldn't most Dentists stay as associates? I have never heard of an associate paying for plant/building/employees (maybe possible, but I cannot see any one in there right mind aggreeing to such a proposal). I think the problem you have with the Sr. Docs making $85-$100k off of the labor of others is that you are not seeing it from a business perspective, and it is an absolute must in a field like dentistry. I assume you have had a job in the past: what employer would be in business if they only made 2% off of each employee? Obviously profit margins differ between businesses, but you get the idea. Call it what you want , but the plain and simple truth is it's capitalism. Your associates will love you, as a matter of fact, I would love to work for you for a few years.

Hafido Keep in mind that they are many many different ways to do it.
The model I posted earlier is quite accurate and it only has the dentist making that much from the associate. Once you get into dental school you will learn more about it! See lets take it this way.

Say that the dentist has a screening day, which he sees 10 new patients in the morning. HE treatment plans them and sits back and looks. Now 3 of them need 5 or 6 crowns, with post and cores, some RCT and other minor fillings. This is some BIG money, so the practicing dentist will either take all 3 cases or give one up and take the other 2. THen say he has a denture on there. He hates dentures, so he gives them up to the associate. Then say the another one needs a 4 unit anterior bridge, the dentist may love doing pros, so he takes that. Then the other 5 have several lesions, MODs, Facials, etc..... The dentist will take 1 or 2 of them and leave the associate dentist with the 5 that he least likes.

See that helps out the dentist, by allowing him to select his patient pool. He will 100% FOR SURE, increase his profits like this. Actually it can be by a GREAT DEAL, sometimes in the 100k+ range. BUT then he gives the associate the other 5. Now the associate inherits these patients. The associate gets the experience from treating these, and will start increasing his speed, which what it is all about. Then as the associate grows faster, the dentist accepts more patients, which can even then let him focus on treating mainly pros patients, since this is what the denist enjoys.

See how it works, its like a you scratch my back and I will scratch yours deal. The dentist does not just take 100k from the associates payday as rob mentioned earlier. If he is, then he should consider looking for another associateship.

I talked with one guy, which told me that he wants most of the crowns/bridgework and RCT in the practice. Then I would get to treat the other patients, while he was rotating through his two practices. I think this is fair, since I like doing other stuff. Also most that I have talked with want all of the cleanings. This is money in the pocket for them!

Also you have a lot to learn from dental school! A new associate fresh out of school is very unable to produce 500k his first year out. If you do, like you said in your post, then I will love to talk with you for an associateship. This would allow me to even take on more pros cases, and let you have the stuff that I don't want the headache with, while you get the background you need.

 

[CraigWVU]

CraigWVU,
where have you been looking to find potential associate opportunities?

Mainly in the pittsburgh area. Although I have talked with a couple of people from florida, but I don't think I want to find patients to go down and take their boards!

 

[toothcaries]

Mainly in the pittsburgh area. Although I have talked with a couple of people from florida, but I don't think I want to find patients to go down and take their boards!

hehe
sorry i was very clear in that last post.

i meant which resources were u using to find a potential position?
(classifieds?....word of mouth?)

 

[CraigWVU]

hehe
sorry i was very clear in that last post.

i meant which resources were u using to find a potential position?
(classifieds?....word of mouth?)

Every possible resource available. There are multiple position offers hung up on bulletin boards. I have a few friends who are working for a group practice who has lead me into 2 or 3 or so offers. Main thing is to play the field before you jump into anything!

 

[dental_discx]

Hafido Keep in mind that they are many many different ways to do it.
The model I posted earlier is quite accurate and it only has the dentist making that much from the associate. Once you get into dental school you will learn more about it! See lets take it this way.
... (snip!) ...
THen say he has a denture on there. He hates dentures, so he gives them up to the associate.
... (snip!) ...
See that helps out the dentist, by allowing him to select his patient pool. He will 100% FOR SURE, increase his profits like this.
... (snip!) ...
See how it works, its like a you scratch my back and I will scratch yours deal. ... (snip!) ...
The dentist does not just take 100k from the associates payday as rob mentioned earlier. If he is, then he should consider looking for another associateship.

Shame on any dentist who actually does this...

This method of "associateship" should only be used for dentists who are already retired or who only want to work for a paycheck, week in/out, w/o any professional growth.

This, in my opinion, is a bad business model anyway, b/c the Sr. Doc is going to end up with a jr. doc who wakes up one day to see how terribly unfair and unmentor-like the Sr. Doc has been treating him/her.

Stated simply... "That's not cool, man..."

Whether you grow the Jr. Doc and take $100k from him/her, or abuse them and "cherry pick" the good cases for yourself, the Sr. Doc is still taking $100k (plus or minus) "from" the Jr. Doc. (Sr. Doc's not really taking anything "from" the Jr. Doc., as this is a business, with various factors at play and lots of cost/benefits involved).

In my opinion, the Sr. Doc is better off being fair to his/her associates, by paying them fairly and giving them a true flavor for all the cases out there. When the Sr. Doc is ready to retire, they can sell it to his/her associate(s), fully confident that the associate(s) will be able to continue the work, thus allowing the Sr. Doc to extract his/her investment (practice).

For Sr. Docs who will not retire for a long time, I suppose he/she COULD "cherry pick" like this, but in almost any size community, word will get around about the use/lose tactics of that Sr. Doc, and he/she will most likely have a hard time finding quality associates.

There's more than enough to be made in the field, why would anyone consider such tactics, just to take a few more bucks home? At the end of the road, it'll be a much more happy life to be surrounded by friends and colleagues, who admire and respect you... than to have a slightly larger bank book. Besides, bad karma will bring bad fortunes, and if you lead an abusing life, you'll invariably see the helping hands and generosity of others quickly disappear...

 

[no2thdk999]

Thats where you are absent minded. See most associates work for dentists who have 2 offices. While the dentist is at one office, then the associate is at the other and vice versa.

Again with the ad hominem? You are absolutely wrong that most associates work for a dentist with 2 offices. It doesn't matter and I'll explain why below, but you're still wrong. I will agree that most ADVERTISED associate positions are like that (i.e. chain clinics, medicaid, multiple offices docs) but that is not most associate positions. If you were just going by what you saw on the class bulletin board then you are right. Most associate positions however are found by word of mouth, through dental reps, and networking.

SO therefore there is NO need to add anything, or train anything since the staff is already there in the office, and the dentist wouldn't be making anything if he/she just shut their door, so they hire an associate and make some additional money from them and get to select their patients.

So this second office just spung up out of thin air? Somebody had to pay for it initially and someone has to pay to keep it going. I have yet to find a deal where you buy one office and you get the second free. i.e. Just because you already own a car doesn't mean it didn't/doesn't cost you anything.

This is the advantage of the dentist having the associate. See whenever they do a screening day, and accept new patients, the dentist will schedule most of the HIGH dollar procedures on his time, and leave the associate with the others. This increases the associates skills while letting the dentist raise his own profits by 25-75k on average per year. Then the dentist takes around 15--20 k from the associate and then the dentist can gain around 95k per year extra, just for having the associate present.

ITs NOT simply taking 100k like you said above from the associate, but simply the dentist is MAKING more with his own hands by selecting his patient pool.

First nothing gets taken from the associate! EVERYBODY REPEAT AFTER ME. THE ASSOCIATE GETS 30-35% OF THEIR PRODUCTION. THE SENIOR DOC PAYS THE OVERHEAD AND GETS TO KEEP THE REST WHICH IF DONE WELL CAN BE AROUND $100K. Nowhere in this scenario does the associate get the short stick. Y'all are so paranoid that somebody might make a dollar off of you that you miss the fact that in all the examples I've used YOU GET $100-140K.

Sure if you work for a small time, maw and paw dental office as an associate you should take the pay cut, but Why would you do that? Find an associateship that will work for you. The above way will let the associate make really really good money, while keeping the dentist satisfied as well.

AAHHHH! :: Doing my best Howard Dean ::
Even if you work for maw and paw you STILL DON'T TAKE THE PAY CUT.
How many time do I have to say that nobody makes the associate take a pay cut! The associate gets a percent of their production PERIOD. If they produce $400k they get X. If they produce $200K they get a smaller x. If they suck and are incompetent and produce less than their overhead they still get x % of whatever they did manage to squeak out. READ THAT AGAIN. If the associate doesn't produce a net profit he still gets paid. This is the risk the senior doc accepts with the hope of making money off of the associates labor. The associate can't lose money in this situation.

I think your experiences are limited and you are not qualified to be posting on this particular subject, other than to share your specific situation. There is a TON of different circumstances to consider and to just pick out one and bash it as you did earlier isn't very smart.

CRAIG

Wait I'm one of the few on here with ANY experience. How can that be less than you have?

Yes there are many different ways to set up an associate but all of them have to make the senior doc a reasonable return on his investment and I'LL SAY IT AGAIN. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE ASSOCIATE GETS THE SHAFT.

JMHO
Rob

 

[CraigWVU]

First off, I am not one to setup a silly fight like a little girl! You may have had different experiences as I, however to say that I am absolutely wrong? I don't think so bud. You need to be doin some calling around and get with the program.

So the second office just sprung out of air? What who said this? For one, the dentist that I am probably going to work with has had the 2nd office for 10-12 years now and its booming, and his views on it are he can gain by telling me up front that he wants to be more selective on his patients, then letting me be able to reach whatever salary that I want with him taking around 10-15% of my total profit. He has had his original office for 20 years. He works at both of them, read it, both of them. He put the offices in without plans of having an associate, so he is going to pay the rent if he does or does NOT get an associate.

You obviously haven't had the same experiences that I have, since you continue your little argument against someone here. You remind me of that little girl in grade school who rats on everyone. Quit being stubborn on the issue and admit, oh I may be wrong here.

I NEVER said that the associate gets the shaft. I said that they very well could if they are not careful and get with the wrong doc. I don't care who you think you are, you have to know there are docs out there who want an associate solely to make more money. YOu make it sound as if every single associateship is the same, where in fact I am yet to find two that are similar. And TRUST ME, I have researched the heck out of this. I know many associates and all tell me what their pros and cons are for working at different places, and hardly any complain of the same thing.

I will not sit here and argue with you on something that I know for sure. My main take home point was this, NO TWO associate positions are the same.

 

[ItsGavinC]

In regards to the 2 offices thing, it does seem more logical that a dentist will FIRST hire an associate and THEN build/open a second office if the need is around.

I've always thought that most dentists who hire associates are the ones who either have a booming business and are needing an extra hand around the office or are preparing to retire in 4 or 5 years and are looking for somebody to buy them out. I've never thought that having a 2nd office played into the looking for an associate gig as much as Craig is saying, but I haven't surveyed the field either.

 

[toothcaries]

In regards to the 2 offices thing, it does seem more logical that a dentist will FIRST hire an associate and THEN build/open a second office if the need is around.

i'd actually assume the opposite to be true.
you'd open a satallite office for limited hours per week.
then increase coverage as demand dictates.....which may or may not include bringing in an associate.
jmo.

..
no2thdk999,
you agreed with CraigWVU's point..

Yes there are many different ways to set up an associate ...

My main take home point was this, NO TWO associate positions are the same.

the rest of the mumbo jumbo falls under that broad "negotiation" subject...which was covered on page one i believe.


finally...
i almost never correct people on grammar since...well, i'm not exactly an english usage role model.
(i'm a nerd and i just cant ignore it)
anyways.
"ad hominem" and other $5 latin words sound great coming from the clarence darrows...
...but, on this thread...i dont think it is being used correctly.
i may have slept thru this lecture in logic class..but ad hominem is where the arguement is rejected because of an irrelevant fact about the person presenting the arguement..
"absent minded" meant "u are wrong" or maybe "you are forgetting".
it was not a literal observation about you..


then again,
what do i know...