Switching from EM to IM

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tsbqb

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HI everyone,

I am really torn between EM and IM. I think each specialty is awesome for different reasons.

I have heard many stories of people from other specialties switching into EM but I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on people leaving EM to go into IM and why they may have done it.

Thanks!

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HI everyone,

I am really torn between EM and IM. I think each specialty is awesome for different reasons.

I have heard many stories of people from other specialties switching into EM but I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on people leaving EM to go into IM and why they may have done it.

Thanks!

Have you considered doing an EM/IM program?
 
I know many people who switched into EM. The only person I know who left EM didn't like the fast pace and acuity. I believe that person then went into FM.
 
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HI everyone,

I am really torn between EM and IM. I think each specialty is awesome for different reasons.

I have heard many stories of people from other specialties switching into EM but I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on people leaving EM to go into IM and why they may have done it.

Thanks!

I've never heard of that--sounds truly horrible.

Some of the types of people going into IM could have the personality/desire to do EM.

However, the types of people starting in EM almost universally would give away children if faced with the possibility of having to do medicine . . .
 
I've never heard of that--sounds truly horrible.

Some of the types of people going into IM could have the personality/desire to do EM.

However, the types of people starting in EM almost universally would give away children if faced with the possibility of having to do medicine . . .

Agree wholeheartedly... IM is such a "catch all" that many EM types get caught in the web and realize later on that they made a mistake. One of our new residents actually finished IM and is now doing EM. I've never even heard of someone doing IM willingly, who got very far into EM. The personality types are so drastically different, I have no idea how any person who genuinely enjoys EM could survive as an internist. I'd rather run naked through half a mile of briars and jump into a bathtub of rubbing alcohol than work one week as an internist. You think I'm kidding...

That's not meant to be a slam on IM, but most EM types cannot fathom working as an internist. I'm sure the feeling is mutual from their end too.

I've honestly never understood the IM/EM combined residencies. Both specialties approach the pt from a completely different mindset with completely different differential stratification. I don't see how people do it to be honest. Plus, if you really enjoyed the ED, how in the world do you put up with IM residency. I was ready to slit my wrists from the limited ward exposure during internship alone...
 
There's a young newish attending at my school that's EM/IM trained. I believe he does floor months as well as ED, and he's active as faculty in both departments. So there's my anecdotal evidence that there are humans that exist out there who like both EM and IM.
 
Agree wholeheartedly... IM is such a "catch all" that many EM types get caught in the web and realize later on that they made a mistake. One of our new residents actually finished IM and is now doing EM. I've never even heard of someone doing IM willingly, who got very far into EM. The personality types are so drastically different, I have no idea how any person who genuinely enjoys EM could survive as an internist. I'd rather run naked through half a mile of briars and jump into a bathtub of rubbing alcohol than work one week as an internist. You think I'm kidding...

That's not meant to be a slam on IM, but most EM types cannot fathom working as an internist. I'm sure the feeling is mutual from their end too.

I've honestly never understood the IM/EM combined residencies. Both specialties approach the pt from a completely different mindset with completely different differential stratification. I don't see how people do it to be honest. Plus, if you really enjoyed the ED, how in the world do you put up with IM residency. I was ready to slit my wrists from the limited ward exposure during internship alone...

I'm wondering if I'm one of those that's attracted to IM but should go with EM instead.

I really like the ED, but I feel like I'd miss out on actually figuring out the diagnosis and treating the patient if I didn't do IM.

See my current thread over in IM for more: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=885839
 
I feel like I'd miss out on actually figuring out the diagnosis and treating the patient if I didn't do IM.

What, exactly, do you think is done in the ED? This is why 3rd and 4th year rotations are so important.
 
I'm wondering if I'm one of those that's attracted to IM but should go with EM instead.

I really like the ED, but I feel like I'd miss out on actually figuring out the diagnosis and treating the patient if I didn't do IM.

See my current thread over in IM for more: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=885839

EM physicians are the ones who actually figure out the diagnosis. We get to do the fun part of detective work in figuring something out (most times. Admittedly, there are some times when we do the shrug shoulder thing but in those instances, usually the floor people will also be scratching their foreheads for a few days).

IM people are the ones who then take that diagnosis and facilitate or optimize the treatments, or do further testing to elucidate the nature/cause of the diagnosed problem.

To help you decide in very general terms, you have to figure out if you want to be the one diagnosing or if you want to be the one who already has a diagnosis but is working it up further. You also have to decide whether you want to think and act very quickly, or if you want to think for a long time...then act later, and then tailor medications up or down :). You also need to like / be able to take the stress of deciding critical actions in a very short time span.
 
If faced with the same situation, I would definitely run through the briar patch…

I pretty much would run through a brarier patch for a week off any day, run through patch, take whole week off good deal, kinda like the philly Policy departments transport policy. take a GSW to the ER, take the rest of the night off.
 
What, exactly, do you think is done in the ED? This is why 3rd and 4th year rotations are so important.

Having spent some time in the ED third year in addition to being there with consulting and/or admitting services, I've seen how often someone gets a shotgun spread of labs and imaging with a consult to the appropriate service. Obviously a full H&P isn't done by the ED, but the documentation is often lacking or the history included there doesn't even address the patient's complaint. I know this offensive terminology to EPs, but there is a lot of triage medicine done there with a focus on disposition more than diagnosis. I realize this isn't the case all the time and that many patients do have an established diagnosis on admission, but I've become much more aware of how many are admitted with a "diagnosis" of chest pain or abdominal pain. I'm not hating on EM, I like it a lot. Just trying to decide which side I'd rather spend my time on.
 
I know this offensive terminology to EPs, but there is a lot of triage medicine done there with a focus on disposition more than diagnosis. I realize this isn't the case all the time and that many patients do have an established diagnosis on admission, but I've become much more aware of how many are admitted with a "diagnosis" of chest pain or abdominal pain. I'm not hating on EM, I like it a lot. Just trying to decide which side I'd rather spend my time on.

You'll be sending a HELL of a lot of chest pain upstairs or to, if you're lucky, an obs unit. Most abdominal pain in the ED is BS and doesn't deserve an actual diagnosis. I'm fine with this, most folk are fine with this. If you're having this many doubts this early on, get on the IM train.
 
I realize this isn't the case all the time and that many patients do have an established diagnosis on admission, but I've become much more aware of how many are admitted with a "diagnosis" of chest pain or abdominal pain. I'm not hating on EM, I like it a lot. Just trying to decide which side I'd rather spend my time on.
I've seen many a people diagnosed in IM with the same things. There are many times when the workup is too in depth or takes too long for it to be concluded in the ED. It's an emergency room, not a hospital ward. EM isn't in the business of doing super rare labs searching for days and days to come to a rule out diagnosis. Besides, batsh*t crazy isn't a billable diagnosis.

I'm with the others, IM wards and outpatient make me want to kill myself, just like the ED makes a lot of IM guys want to do the same.
 
Having spent some time in the ED third year in addition to being there with consulting and/or admitting services, I've seen how often someone gets a shotgun spread of labs and imaging with a consult to the appropriate service. Obviously a full H&P isn't done by the ED, but the documentation is often lacking or the history included there doesn't even address the patient's complaint. I know this offensive terminology to EPs, but there is a lot of triage medicine done there with a focus on disposition more than diagnosis. I realize this isn't the case all the time and that many patients do have an established diagnosis on admission, but I've become much more aware of how many are admitted with a "diagnosis" of chest pain or abdominal pain. I'm not hating on EM, I like it a lot. Just trying to decide which side I'd rather spend my time on.

At the same time, the problem with doing internal medicine is you get to babysit the patients that nobody else wants–the train wrecks, the drunks, the ones being consulted upon by many services, the weak/dizzy crowd, the “one who just can't go home”…
 
I knew one EM resident who switched into IM. The shift work in EM was taxing on her family life, so she opted to go into IM for a more regular schedule.
 
Having spent some time in the ED third year in addition to being there with consulting and/or admitting services, I've seen how often someone gets a shotgun spread of labs and imaging with a consult to the appropriate service. Obviously a full H&P isn't done by the ED, but the documentation is often lacking or the history included there doesn't even address the patient's complaint. I know this offensive terminology to EPs, but there is a lot of triage medicine done there with a focus on disposition more than diagnosis. I realize this isn't the case all the time and that many patients do have an established diagnosis on admission, but I've become much more aware of how many are admitted with a "diagnosis" of chest pain or abdominal pain. I'm not hating on EM, I like it a lot. Just trying to decide which side I'd rather spend my time on.

Honestly, if you feel that sense of disdain or criticism for EM, you're probably not meant for it. The perspectives are completely different, along with the differential. Think about it... any idea how many patients we see in a 12 hour shift? If you worked a patient up in pure "IM" style with the ultra thorough H&P and 10 blood gases and pocket calculator out and FENA ordered from the lab... you'd certainly have a very thorough work up... and a lot of dead patients on your hands. While you're mentally masturbating, for lack of a better word, over non emergent issues, patients can be critical and/or dying.

That extra hour you took for the last 5 patients in asking them 10 extra questions that are non-relevant where a potential emergency is considered... well guess what... you left a stroke out in the waiting room, and damn if she didn't get put back right past the TPA window. Hey, at least you didn't shotgun the labs though (fast), and spent the extra time for a thorough H&P asking questions that don't change your management (slow). Meanwhile, you'll miss STEMIs, CVAs and all sorts of other stuff. EPs have to make fast decisions, with very limited information, in a very short time span, whilst managing multiple patients at once. That means that things get missed, but it's usually the stuff that doesn't change our management. The Mg and Phos and lipid panels and everything else can get ordered upstairs. Chest pain and abdominal pain are completely reasonable and "codeable" diagnoses. Honestly, most of us don't care what is causing the chest or abdominal pain once an emergency has been ruled out.

Acute renal failure is a great example. Take ARF 2/2 nephritic syndrome. I don't need to know exactly what type it is. ATN? AIN? IgAN? SLE? Who cares? They are in ARF and need admission and if they are stable... my job is done. The only thing I care about at that point is getting them out of the ED as quickly as possible to make room for the next patient so that I don't miss an emergency.

So.... the argument of "who makes the diagnoses" depends on the perspective. Do you like working up undifferentiated patients and being the first to diagnose the "big problem" going on, or do you enjoy the mental tail chasing over the next few days and playing humphrey bogart? There's no right or wrong answer.

I will say this though... most people that genuinely enjoy EM are, I've found, of a certain personality type. I've known very few that were "on the fence" so to speak about working in the ED. Honestly, if you kind of enjoy working the medicine wards and morning report, then you're probably more in tune with IM and trying to talk yourself into EM. Most of us that truly enjoy EM could think of no hell worse than ward medicine with...ugh...a pager.

I hated morning report, I hated rounding, I hated sitting still, I hated making small changes every day, I hated the lack of instant gratification for the majority of my medical management...and worst of all? I hated wearing a tie and shiny shoes all day long and spending hours talking about electrolytes and for the love of God did I hate being paged....
 
Having spent some time in the ED third year in addition to being there with consulting and/or admitting services, I've seen how often someone gets a shotgun spread of labs and imaging with a consult to the appropriate service. Obviously a full H&P isn't done by the ED, but the documentation is often lacking or the history included there doesn't even address the patient's complaint. I know this offensive terminology to EPs, but there is a lot of triage medicine done there with a focus on disposition more than diagnosis. I realize this isn't the case all the time and that many patients do have an established diagnosis on admission, but I've become much more aware of how many are admitted with a "diagnosis" of chest pain or abdominal pain. I'm not hating on EM, I like it a lot. Just trying to decide which side I'd rather spend my time on.

I'm only a 4th year, but I've done a 3 week rotation as a 3rd year, 2 adult ED away months as a 4th year, and now on pedi EM as a selective/sub-i at my home institution. I don't know what your 3rd year experience was, but I don't think being a consult to the ED gives you a good perspective. You don't see HALF the diagnoses we do in the ED (and send home for the most part). All we do is diagnose.

And as far as chest pain, I've never been on the admitting side of a chest-painer that didn't at least have elevated CE's or a suspect EKG. How is this not a diagnosis? On the other hand, we have sent home several people who presented with chest pain with a normal work up.

Abdominal pain is harder, because if someone's not responding to treatment and labs are normal, there's only so much we can do in the ED.

I don't know... I mean, I just think it's unfair to throw this blanket statement out there that all we do in the ED is shotgun labs and have weak admits. I'm sure those docs exist, but I have been taught to always think things through and only order what's necessary. Plus, many of the labs we order are because we know that the admitting team would want them, and we do it to get the ball rolling for them.

Actual residents and attendings, please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
 
I'm only a 4th year, but I've done a 3 week rotation as a 3rd year, 2 adult ED away months as a 4th year, and now on pedi EM as a selective/sub-i at my home institution. I don't know what your 3rd year experience was, but I don't think being a consult to the ED gives you a good perspective. You don't see HALF the diagnoses we do in the ED (and send home for the most part). All we do is diagnose.

And as far as chest pain, I've never been on the admitting side of a chest-painer that didn't at least have elevated CE's or a suspect EKG. How is this not a diagnosis? On the other hand, we have sent home several people who presented with chest pain with a normal work up.

Abdominal pain is harder, because if someone's not responding to treatment and labs are normal, there's only so much we can do in the ED.

I don't know... I mean, I just think it's unfair to throw this blanket statement out there that all we do in the ED is shotgun labs and have weak admits. I'm sure those docs exist, but I have been taught to always think things through and only order what's necessary. Plus, many of the labs we order are because we know that the admitting team would want them, and we do it to get the ball rolling for them.

Actual residents and attendings, please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

Admitting low-risk chest pain is one of the most evidence based practices in all of medicine. It becomes a numbers game. If 5% of patients I send home have an MI then I don't get to practice very long, if 19/20 patients I admit don't have an MI then you feel like you're being dumped on. I feel like the weak admits usually end up being things that could be managed as outpatient but something in the chain is broken. I admit 1-2 patients a week sent by their PCP with Doppler results in hand for uncomplicated DVT.
 
The chest pain thing is a no brainer. Most hospitalists will admit for rule outs with no problem (or should at least..). Even the cards guys that bitch and moan need to read their own AHA/ACC guidelines about negative troponins 8 hours after CP required, and the 10% normal EKG/Tn jazz... It's humorous to me that it's the ACEP guidelines that actually have potentially more expediting and shortened dispositions (Tn+CKMB+Myo negative once and again at 90mins, etc..), NOT AHA/ACC although it seems cardiology is always wanting to punt these "low risk" CP'ers out the door, take one look at the EKG and call it all "non cardiac".

I almost wonder sometimes why admitting CP'ers is easier than others... Is it all evidence based, or the result of the advent of nuclear stress testing and coronary CTA's as a money bilking incentive for admission along with fear of litigation on that "one that got missed".
 
Besides, batsh*t crazy isn't a billable diagnosis.

:laugh::laugh: I would actually pay to be able to write that as a diagnosis ! If i was on the floor, I would seriously go batsh*t crazy. When I was working outside EM once, the hospital had a "secret" place on the roof called "the drop zone" for people like me who got so mad at being constantly paged for stupid crap that they would go to the drop zone and hurl their pagers off the building. Defo no IM for me.
 
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