Switching from ND to MD Mid program?

[entropyisbliss]

I am currently in an accredited ND (doctor of naturopathic medicine) program. I went ND because I truly loved the principles and believed in them, but through the program I learned that my heart is truly in traditional medicine and acute care. (I learned this by shadowing MD and ND at the same time and consistently over the 2 years.)

After taking NPLEX in February I am considering leaving my ND program to apply for an MD or DO program. Has anyone taken this path? Does anyone know if leaving my program will hurt my chances at going MD/DO?

Literally any advisement is much appreciated.

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[libertyyne]

1) You will have to take the pre-med requirements if you havent already.
2)You will have to take the MCAT.
3) You will have to explain the ND and change of heart extensively,
4)You will in all likelihood face bias against having the ND degree from adcoms, it is up to you how you explain it or overcome it.
4) How are you an accredited ND and are still in the program?

 

[Lucca]

this is going to be a good thread

 

[entropyisbliss]

1) You will have to take the pre-med requirements if you havent already.
2)You will have to take the MCAT.
3) You will have to explain the ND and change of heart extensively, you may face bias against having the ND degree from adcoms.
4) How are you an accredited ND and are still in the program?

1) You will have to take the pre-med requirements if you havent already.
2)You will have to take the MCAT.
3) You will have to explain the ND and change of heart extensively, you may face bias against having the ND degree from adcoms.
4) How are you an accredited ND and are still in the program?

1/2) Ive taken them before (More than willing to retake MCAT that expired).
3) would it be worse to finish the program then apply, or to leave halfway through and talk about the discrepancies?
4) thats terrible wording on my part, im still a student, in a ND program

 

[libertyyne]

1/2) Ive taken them before
3) would it be worse to finish the program then apply, or to leave halfway through and talk about the discrepancies?
4) thats terrible wording on my part, im still a student, in a ND program

I mean that is up to you, how much time do you have left in the program?
Why the change of heart?
What will you write as explanation ?

The real question you should be asking is, are you ok with leaving your program and then not gaining admission to an MD school? because most people that apply to MD schools do not get an admission. Then you are left with a partial ND degree some debt with it and no other prospects.

What is your UG GPA sGPA?
Did you take the MCAT for ND school or do they have an NMCAT?

 

[JustAPhD]

Well your judgement will certainly be questioned.

 

[entropyisbliss]

I mean that is up to you, how much time do you have left in the program?
Why the change of heart?
What will you write as explanation ?

 

[libertyyne]

Well your judgement will certainly be questioned.

Understatement of the year.

I have 2 years left in the program.

Although I fundamentally believe in trying the least invasive measures first, getting to the root of the cause and centering care on strengthening the body instead of eradicating an illness, I dont think that naturopathic doctors are going about it right. I cant imagine prescribing herbs/vitamins instead of drugs for things like diabetes. I have excelled in the traditional medicine topics (literally getting 4.0) and kind of muddled through the modalities (especially homeopathy and acupuncture). I have stuck it out to NPLEX so that I could prove competency in the first two years if I ever felt like completing the degree.

I am still working on what I would write for an explanation.

The real question you should be asking is, are you ok with leaving your program and then not gaining admission to an MD school? because most people that apply to MD schools do not get an admission. Then you are left with a partial ND degree some debt with it and no other prospects.

What is your UG GPA sGPA?
Did you take the MCAT for ND school or do they have an NMCAT?

 

[entropyisbliss]

Understatement of the year.

The real question you should be asking is, are you ok with leaving your program and then not gaining admission to an MD school? because most people that apply to MD schools do not get an admission. Then you are left with a partial ND degree some debt with it and no other prospects.

What is your UG GPA sGPA?
Did you take the MCAT for ND school or do they have an NMCAT?

 

[Lawpy]

Although I fundamentally believe in trying the least invasive measures first, getting to the root of the cause and centering care on strengthening the body instead of eradicating an illness, I dont think that naturopathic doctors are going about it right. I cant imagine prescribing herbs/vitamins instead of drugs for things like diabetes.

yeah it reminds me of this

 

[libertyyne]

I am considering trying for MD, I would be willing to go DO or possibly (but only as a last resort) carib MD. My program will grant me a year off and I can come back if I do not gain acceptance anywhere without having to start to pay my loans back.

UG cGPA is 3.33
UG sGPA is 3.0
[I found naturopathic medical school while considering post bacc or MPH for more GPA points because my GPA was far below admissible. I had a family problem that pulled me back and forth from home for a while and resulted in my GPA falling hard for 2 semesters. ]

Grad GPA is 3.90

total cGPA: 3.62
total sGPA: 3.31 (only calculating biology, microbiology and biochemistry from my ND program)

My MCAT was a 27. [Taken during summer when GPA was falling, not best idea ever. My last practice test (before they changed format) was a 31]

1) MD will be a no go without post bac classes and an MCAT >32 depending on where you live.
2) DO might be a viable option with a quick grade replacement and a MCAT performance of >28.
3) No one really cares about grad GPA and people will especially not care about grad GPA from a ND program. It will not be counted in the AMCAS UG totals.

urm, orm?

 

[kb1900]

i certainly dont want to derail this thread or anything but i have to ask since apparently ND has the same pre-reqs:

how can anyone believe in herbs/alternative medicine/etc after taking biochemistry or any science classes...

 

[entropyisbliss]

1) MD will be a no go without post bac classes and an MCAT >32 depending on where you live.
2) DO might be a viable option with a quick grade replacement and a MCAT performance of >28.
3) No one really cares about grad GPA and people will especially not care about grad GPA from a ND program. It will not be counted in the AMCAS UG totals.

urm, orm?

 

[libertyyne]

The MD statistic is exactly what I was fearing, but thats really good to know.

What is the grade replacement thing with DO schools? If I retake the classes will they consider the higher score?

caucasian, but bilingual first generation college student with over 2 years of medical volunteer work with underrepresented minorities, a ton of leadership experience and my name on 2 published research papers in just the past 2 years.(Do the extracurriculars make that big of a difference?)

[/QUOTE]
Stats are necessary to get your foot in the door. Buy an MSAR and look at the schools your are considering they give 10th percentile's of GPA and MCAT accepted. 3.3 and 3.0 will be almost certainly below most schools. EC's matter once you have sufficient grades for someone to look at your application. I would tread lightly if it is ND research.

DO grade replacement is something along the lines of if you have a C or less and take the exact same class, or a class with the same description they will substitute the newer grade. I would do some research by yourself to confirm that piece and the technicalities of the policy since I am no expert.


What is your state of residence?

 

[entropyisbliss]

Stats are necessary to get your foot in the door. Buy an MSAR and look at the schools your are considering they give 10th percentile's of GPA and MCAT accepted. 3.3 and 3.0 will be almost certainly below most schools. EC's matter once you have sufficient grades for someone to look at your application. I would tread lightly if it is ND research.

DO grade replacement is something along the lines of if you have a C or less and take the exact same class, or a class with the same description they will substitute the newer grade. I would do some research by yourself to confirm that piece and the technicalities of the policy since I am no expert. [/QUOTE]


Research is actually through a pretty decent state university dept. of Microbiology. (Research partnerships were the thing that brought me to this school initially).

Thank you for all of your help, I will definitely look into those policies/stats. This was very helpful!!

 

[entropyisbliss]

Stats are necessary to get your foot in the door. Buy an MSAR and look at the schools your are considering they give 10th percentile's of GPA and MCAT accepted. 3.3 and 3.0 will be almost certainly below most schools. EC's matter once you have sufficient grades for someone to look at your application. I would tread lightly if it is ND research.

DO grade replacement is something along the lines of if you have a C or less and take the exact same class, or a class with the same description they will substitute the newer grade. I would do some research by yourself to confirm that piece and the technicalities of the policy since I am no expert.


What is your state of residence?[/QUOTE]

 

[libertyyne]

Stats are necessary to get your foot in the door. Buy an MSAR and look at the schools your are considering they give 10th percentile's of GPA and MCAT accepted. 3.3 and 3.0 will be almost certainly below most schools. EC's matter once you have sufficient grades for someone to look at your application. I would tread lightly if it is ND research.

DO grade replacement is something along the lines of if you have a C or less and take the exact same class, or a class with the same description they will substitute the newer grade. I would do some research by yourself to confirm that piece and the technicalities of the policy since I am no expert.


What is your state of residence?

Sorry, for some reason my last post wouldnt quote your last one.

I still have AZ as my state of residence so I have 2 MD programs and 2 DO programs to choose from. Does that change anything as far as admissions go? (I am assuming that it will not)

advice remains the same, both schools have GPA's medians >3.7 and mcat >31 . Their 10th percentiles look a little more forgiving, however your sgpa is below the 10th percentile for both schools. Post bac, mcat>32 and a good explaination or spin on the ND is what it will take.

 

[entropyisbliss]

Sorry, for some reason my last post wouldnt quote your last one.

I still have AZ as my state of residence so I have 2 MD programs and 2 DO programs to choose from. Does that change anything as far as admissions go? (I am assuming that it will not)

advice remains the same, both schools have GPA's medians >3.7 and mcat >31 . Their 10th percentiles look a little more forgiving, however your sgpa is below the 10th percentile for both schools. Post bac, mcat>32 and a good explaination or spin on the ND is what it will take.[/QUOTE]

Its good to know that I should not be wasting money this application round! Thank you so much for looking them up.

Do you have the stats on the DO programs? AT Still SOMA and Midwestern. (I know that their posted averages are ~3.4 and ~27 MCAT)

 

[libertyyne]

advice remains the same, both schools have GPA's medians >3.7 and mcat >31 . Their 10th percentiles look a little more forgiving, however your sgpa is below the 10th percentile for both schools. Post bac, mcat>32 and a good explaination or spin on the ND is what it will take.

Its good to know that I should not be wasting money this application round! Thank you so much for looking them up.

Do you have the stats on the DO programs? AT Still SOMA and Midwestern. (I know that their posted averages are ~3.4 and ~27 MCAT)

Unfortunately I do not, google them.DO schools tend to be more forgiving.

 

[entropyisbliss]

Its good to know that I should not be wasting money this application round! Thank you so much for looking them up.

Do you have the stats on the DO programs? AT Still SOMA and Midwestern. (I know that their posted averages are ~3.4 and ~27 MCAT)

Unfortunately I do not, google them.DO schools tend to be more forgiving.[/QUOTE]
Awesome, well thank you again !! I really appreciate the help.

 

[ScottTenorman54]

Definitely not qualified to give you advice OP, just wanted to commend you for recognizing the kool-aid for what it is even after personally investing so much in it. Takes some character to do that. I've seen a lot of alt med people just dig deeper into that lunacy even after they've started doubting it just to save face.

 

[LutGholein]

I am currently in an accredited ND (doctor of naturopathic medicine) program. I went ND because I truly loved the principles and believed in them, but through the program I learned that my heart is truly in traditional medicine and acute care. (I learned this by shadowing MD and ND at the same time and consistently over the 2 years.)

After taking NPLEX in February I am considering leaving my ND program to apply for an MD or DO program. Has anyone taken this path? Does anyone know if leaving my program will hurt my chances at going MD/DO?

Literally any advisement is much appreciated.

You mentioned AZ residency, well the first thing I can say is that thankfully it's not CA residency. Since you're interested in the DO route along with MD you might want to shadow a DO and try to get a letter of rec to really solidify your interest/chance at SOMA and AZCOM. As others mentioned the sGPA is lethal-- your grad gpa isn't gonna mitigate that so you might want to look into grade replacement for the DO side. Retake the MCAT since most/all places will need the new one. Finally, applying early will be crucial for you come next year for both AMCAS and AACOMAS.

this is going to be a good thread

You beat me to it!

 

[Umyo]

this is going to be a good thread

I've got my popcorn ready

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I cant stand the idea of not using a science based approach to patient care

Then why did you go to a quack school?........

MD is out because of your numbers honestly. I would retake your lowest science grades because DO schools will replace the older grade with the new one. Retake the MCAT and aim for a 505+ and then apply broadly to DO. If you do that you should get some interviews. Get ready to explain your decision making though because it will for sure be questioned by many adcoms.

For AZCOM you will want your GPA above a 3.4 and MCAT above 508, those seem to be the trends I am seeing with them. You will be competitive for SOMA if you meet their mission because they are huge on mission and less about stats

 

[Mad Jack]

i certainly dont want to derail this thread or anything but i have to ask since apparently ND has the same pre-reqs:

how can anyone believe in herbs/alternative medicine/etc after taking biochemistry or any science classes...

Some herbs and **** work, others simply haven't been studied, so it's hard to say if they work or don't. Homeopathy, however, is bull****. Acupuncture, who the **** knows- it may have a mechanism of action that we don't fully understand (nociceptive distraction or some ****), but certainly has nothing to do with any of the chi nonsense. Nutrition, yeah, that's important.

 

[Goro]

I have Adcom colleagues who will say "you should have thought of this BEFORE going to quack school".

Your UG stats are lethal for MD schools, and circling the drain for DO. Your ND school grades will NOT be taken seriously by anyone.

I suggest a SMP.

I have 2 years left in the program.

Although I fundamentally believe in trying the least invasive measures first, getting to the root of the cause and centering care on strengthening the body instead of eradicating an illness, I dont think that naturopathic doctors are going about it right. I cant imagine prescribing herbs/vitamins instead of drugs for things like diabetes. I have excelled in the traditional medicine topics (literally getting 4.0) and kind of muddled through the modalities (especially homeopathy and acupuncture). I cant stand the idea of not using a science based approach to patient care. I have stuck it out to NPLEX so that I could prove competency in the first two years if I ever felt like completing the degree.

I am still working on what I would write for an explanation.

 

[libertyyne]

I have Adcom colleagues who will say "you should have thought of this BEFORE going to quack school".

Your UG stats are lethal for MD schools, and circling the drain for DO. Your ND school grades will NOT be taken seriously by anyone.

I suggest a SMP.

I feel like there could be a good narrative here, either augmenting medical care or figuring out ND is BS and a coming to scientific-Jesus moment. But those essays would have to be amazing. That in addition to the grades and mcat obviously.

 

[Goro]

I am concerned about OP's choice making, critical thinking, research skills, (not the lab kind) and the poor UG grades. I do not place any faith in the ND school grades.

I feel like there could be a good narrative here, either augmenting medical care or figuring out ND is BS and a coming to scientific-Jesus moment. But those essays would have to be amazing. That in addition to the grades and mcat obviously.

 

[libertyyne]

I am concerned about OP's choice making, critical thinking, research skills, (not the lab kind) and the poor UG grades. I do not place any faith in the ND school grades.

I completely agree. Red flags everywhere.

 

[kb1900]

Some herbs and **** work, others simply haven't been studied, so it's hard to say if they work or don't. Homeopathy, however, is bull****. Acupuncture, who the **** knows- it may have a mechanism of action that we don't fully understand (nociceptive distraction or some ****), but certainly has nothing to do with any of the chi nonsense. Nutrition, yeah, that's important.

what i mean though is that literally everything taught in science classes is based on knowledge that has been verified through science and hypothesis-driven experimentation.

and the majority of naturapathic medicine is literally based in no experimentation/science etc. and circumvents any desire for evidence-based knowledge

its such a logical disconnect that i can not fathom

 

[OchemOficionado]

I think you've been given great advice on this thread. I'll just add an anecdote. One of my good friends had similar grades to yours and went to a ND school in AZ. Dropped out after two years and eventually gained admission to the Geffen med school at UCLA. There's a million hoops they had to jump through for that to happen, but it is possible.

 

[Mad Jack]

what i mean though is that literally everything taught in science classes is based on knowledge that has been verified through science and hypothesis-driven experimentation.

and the majority of naturapathic medicine is literally based in no experimentation/science etc. and circumvents any desire for evidence-based knowledge

its such a logical disconnect that i can not fathom

Probably the same way that a person can believe personal anecdotes when practicing regular medicine without any evidence backing their practice. There's a whole lot less EBM in real medicine than most people would believe, a good amount of practice (such as like, 80% of orthopedics, a lot of what goes on in the ICU, a lot of pain medicine, etc) has very poor evidence behind it. This isn't to say that those practices are inherently worthless, as some of them may very well work, just that the evidence behind many procedures and modalities is lacking at best (and condemning at worst).

 

[summergirl]

I think you've been given great advice on this thread. I'll just add an anecdote. One of my good friends had similar grades to yours and went to a ND school in AZ. Dropped out after two years and eventually gained admission to the Geffen med school at UCLA. There's a million hoops they had to jump through for that to happen, but it is possible.

I can't see how this is possible unless he was literally the once frozen sperm of Albert Einstein.

 

[OchemOficionado]

I can't see how this is possible unless he was literally the once frozen sperm of Albert Einstein.

I'm sure crazier things have happened. Admission processes aren't as cut and dry as some people think. My friend had a compelling story and overcame a lot. I definitely think that situation is 1 in a large #, but it happened.

 

[libertyyne]

I can't see how this is possible unless he was literally the once frozen sperm of Albert Einstein.

There is a good story here. I was lost and then i found science etc. However, would only work with GPA>3.5 and mcat>516.

 

[entropyisbliss]

what i mean though is that literally everything taught in science classes is based on knowledge that has been verified through science and hypothesis-driven experimentation.

and the majority of naturapathic medicine is literally based in no experimentation/science etc. and circumvents any desire for evidence-based knowledge

its such a logical disconnect that i can not fathom

.

 

[summergirl]

There is a good story here. I was lost and then i found science etc. However, would only work with GPA>3.5 and mcat>516.

But his friend had the same stats as the OP (27mcat, ~3.15gpa), which is why I found it hard to believe. But since things like this happen once in a million, maybe he just met that one out of a million.

 

[libertyyne]

But his friend had the same stats as the OP (27mcat, ~3.15gpa), which is why I found it hard to believe. But since things like this happen once in a million, maybe he just met that one out of a million.

@LutGholein did your friend do GPA repair and retake the mcat prior to ucla or something else?

 

[OchemOficionado]

But his friend had the same stats as the OP (27mcat, ~3.15gpa), which is why I found it hard to believe. But since things like this happen once in a million, maybe he just met that one out of a million.

Opps, should have been more clear. My friend had a strikingly similar story/stats at this same point. THEN my friend jumped through all the hoops to gain admission. I don't remember the MCAT, but I think it was 30-31.

 

[LutGholein]

I think you've been given great advice on this thread. I'll just add an anecdote. One of my good friends had similar grades to yours and went to a ND school in AZ. Dropped out after two years and eventually gained admission to the Geffen med school at UCLA. There's a million hoops they had to jump through for that to happen, but it is possible.

@LutGholein did your friend do GPA repair and retake the mcat prior to ucla or something else?

Not my friend lol!

 

[libertyyne]

Not my friend lol!

Sorry. My mistake. @OchemOficionado was there GPA repair involved ?

 

[grapples43]

Well, just to throw you a little more hope here, there is a girl in my class who is a ND. I'm not sure what kind of grades, MCAT score, or personal story she has, but she did do it. I also have a lot of respect for her and her level of knowledge and intelligence. She's definitely not a quack.

I think you've gotten a lot of good advice here, so I would look into a lot of their suggestions if you are serious about a switch. You absolutely will be dismissed by some ADCOMS, but maybe it's worth trying for the one or two who won't dismiss you and will listen to what you have to say. I do think you need a compelling reason as to why you now think MD or DO is a better brand of medicine than ND when you once did not.

 

[OchemOficionado]

Sorry. My mistake. @OchemOficionado was there GPA repair involved ?

Yup.

 

[entropyisbliss]

Yup.

Out of curiosity, what kind of GPA repair? Did they consider ND GPA?

 

[libertyyne]

Out of curiosity, what kind of GPA repair? Did they consider ND GPA?

GPA repair means doing a post bac. No one looks at graduate school GPA even from MIT in nuclear physics.

 

[AlexMack12]

You'll have to put a hell of a spin on your story, but I think you can do it.

What I would suggest, in this case and in life in general, is never, ever trash a past school/boss/job/career to an interviewer for a new opportunity. It's just poor form. Sure, everyone in the room will know the shortcomings of ND school, but I'd not approach it from the angle of "yeah that was a lot of BS and oh Lordy you shoulda heard what they were a-teachin'." Always, always use a more positive spin.

Consider emphasizing that your original career goals included pursuing a career in this field in order to complement patients' more traditional medical care (some alternative medicine has been shown to be evidence-based, and as our patient populations grow more diverse, cultural sensitivity demands at least an awareness of alternative medicine that physicians cannot outright dismiss). You could emphasize that you were interested in promoting evidence-based alternative/complementary medicine due to the fact that it can be important to some patients and another way to supplement their multidisciplinary treatment plans. However, as your education progressed, you realized that you wanted to serve your patients in a different role- that of an MD/DO physician. Etc etc. By underscoring the desire to pursue a different role, rather than a "better" or "more important" or "real" role in serving your patients, it communicates your desire to change paths without being negative.

Best of luck, OP!

 

[sullen-burger]

Haha Looking into post bac programs all I have really found is a research intensive and nursing. Is there s

I'm assuming here you meant to ask "is there something else that's not research intensive"

if that's what you meant, then: https://www.noodle.com/articles/a-guide-to-postbac-premed-programs-another-route-to-med-school

If you're concerned that an SMP is too research intensive.... then I'm afraid there's nothing I can do for you.

 

[entropyisbliss]

I'm assuming here you meant to ask "is there something else that's not research intensive"

if that's what you meant, then: https://www.noodle.com/articles/a-guide-to-postbac-premed-programs-another-route-to-med-school

If you're concerned that an SMP is too research intensive.... then I'm afraid there's nothing I can do for you.

For some reason it cut off what I was saying when I posted before. This site was very helpful, thank you!

 

[darkjedi]

As far as I'm aware, the term Naturopathic Doctor is not even a protected term in most states. Literally anyone can call themselves one.

 

[entropyisbliss]

As far as I'm aware, the term Naturopathic Doctor is not even a protected term. Literally anyone can call themselves one.

So this is sort of true. In most states the term "Naturopathic Doctor" is protected, but there are some where you can refer to yourself as a naturopathic doctor with no training which is a huge problem in the field.