Sydney clinical schools

[cocomcgill]

Does anyone have any advice about picking a clinical school at Sydney? Are they all pretty much the same. I've read the info on the website and they all sound ok. Thanks.

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[ellehcim]

What uni are you affliated with in Syd? That will narrow it down a bit...

 

[JBA]

Does anyone have any advice about picking a clinical school at Sydney? Are they all pretty much the same. I've read the info on the website and they all sound ok. Thanks.

They are all about the same. Each one will have something unique about it. Central Clinical school is RPA and Concord. RPA is on campus essentially and a prestigous hospital. Teaching is far from the first priority of many doctors there and students say they sometimes feel lost/in the way while on tutorials. Concord is a little on the old side and there is no real trauma or peds so you have to do those rotations at a different hospital. Teaching at Concord is supposedly the best out of the hospitals affiliated with Sydney.

Northern Clinical school is Royal North Shore, Hornsby and Manly. RNS is a nice hospital but people say it is a 'snobby' place. Teaching is decent though and not too far from campus. Hornsby and Manly are far away, old and small but only a small about of time is spent there.

Western Clinical School is Westmead and Napean. Westmead is the biggest hospital and definitely has the best patient variety. Tutors are repotedly friendly but it is a huge place to start out.....Napean is far away from campus, and that's all I really know about it.

I selected Central and got it and was placed at Concord. It's just a lottery. But you don't get to select your hospital allocation. If I could go back I would select Northern I think. But Concord is very relaxed and well-organized and as a student you are essentially given free-reign to do what you like.

Hope this helps....if you're not going to USyd then none of the info will matter at all as UNSW has different teaching hospitals.

 

[Adele]

Hi JBA

I was wondering what sort of contact you had with any cardiology groups at Concord? Do you know if being placed at any one of the clinical schools would give me a better opportunity to interact with any of the cardiology and cardiac research groups?

Also, i was wondering how you found the PBL teaching program at Sydney? Did you have any time management issues? How did you find it compared to a more traditional lecturing style? What were the group dynamics like? Do the PBL group sessions continue through all four years (while doing rotations)?

I'm currently studying at an undergraduate medical school (not in medicine) and the students are subjected to 9-5 lectures for the first three years which has a major disadvantage of the students having difficulty making "connections" between the different pieces of information that they are being fed. I imagine that PBL overcomes this?

Cheers,
Adele

 

[JBA]

Hey Adele,
My clinical skills tutor is a cardiology fellow at Concord. So needless to say I have some substantial cardiology contact. But as far as being a member of a research group goes I am really not sure. I know that there would be research going on at all the teaching hospitals but as a student you would have to get yourself involved with it as it's not part of the program per se. RPA has a very large cardiac research unit....so that might be the best. Then again I am only in first year and haven't even gotten to the cardiovascular block yet so by Nov. I should have more info.

With PBL's you have lots of time to study. There should not be any time management issues. We have lectures and labs through the week as well. While PBL can get tedious sometimes, overall I think it's a really effective way to learn medicine. It starts off sort of slow until everyone gets the hang of it but once you figure it out it's much better than the traditional system. Well I think so at least. All my groups have always been great....there are 8 students and 1 tutor. Tutor is a phD student or professor from the Faculty. PBL's do continue throughout the whole course but in years 3 & 4 they are clinical problems and conducted entirely at your clinical school. Hope this info helped...if you have other questions let me know.....

Hi JBA

I was wondering what sort of contact you had with any cardiology groups at Concord? Do you know if being placed at any one of the clinical schools would give me a better opportunity to interact with any of the cardiology and cardiac research groups?

Also, i was wondering how you found the PBL teaching program at Sydney? Did you have any time management issues? How did you find it compared to a more traditional lecturing style? What were the group dynamics like? Do the PBL group sessions continue through all four years (while doing rotations)?

I'm currently studying at an undergraduate medical school (not in medicine) and the students are subjected to 9-5 lectures for the first three years which has a major disadvantage of the students having difficulty making "connections" between the different pieces of information that they are being fed. I imagine that PBL overcomes this?

Cheers,
Adele

 

[Adele]

Hi Flindophile,

Thanks for your e-mail. How do you deal with the areas that are not adequately covered with PBL? Can you rely on the lectures for the material or do you need to address the deficit yourself with self-directed learning?

Central seems like the best choice for me. I'm not sure how much time i will have to get involved in the research side of things if i get into Sydney next year but i hope i do get the chance (for love and money). I also want to interact with a good cardiology group in the interest of years post medical school.

BTW Where are you doing your medical training?

Thanks,
Adele

 

[Adele]

Hey JBA,

Thanks for replying. I'm jealous! (i mean apart from the you're already in med thing, that you're tutor is a cardiology fellow). It's encouraging to hear that all your study groups have gone well. How do the groups work with some people coming from a science background and some not? Does everyone contribute equally or are there times when people with some relevant bakground knowledge step up to "share" with the group?

How did you find being thrown into a clinical setting from the get go? Do the Drs ease you in (or am i being optimistic?)? Was there a lot of looking at the floor going on?

Adele 🙂

Hey Adele,
My clinical skills tutor is a cardiology fellow at Concord. So needless to say I have some substantial cardiology contact. But as far as being a member of a research group goes I am really not sure. I know that there would be research going on at all the teaching hospitals but as a student you would have to get yourself involved with it as it's not part of the program per se. RPA has a very large cardiac research unit....so that might be the best. Then again I am only in first year and haven't even gotten to the cardiovascular block yet so by Nov. I should have more info.

With PBL's you have lots of time to study. There should not be any time management issues. We have lectures and labs through the week as well. While PBL can get tedious sometimes, overall I think it's a really effective way to learn medicine. It starts off sort of slow until everyone gets the hang of it but once you figure it out it's much better than the traditional system. Well I think so at least. All my groups have always been great....there are 8 students and 1 tutor. Tutor is a phD student or professor from the Faculty. PBL's do continue throughout the whole course but in years 3 & 4 they are clinical problems and conducted entirely at your clinical school. Hope this info helped...if you have other questions let me know.....

 

[Adele]

Hi Flindophile,

I guess this would be a good time to admit that I'm one of those kiwis that compete for "local" places 😀. I'm finishing my PhD in Physiology at Auckland Medical School and have a reasonable knowledge of both NZ medical programs. They are good medical schools but both are undergraduate and this has serious disadvantages for a graduate in terms of the under-graduate content and teaching style, average age of students and also attitude to research.

Are there many ex-kiwis in your year?

It's nice to know that you don't need to waste a lot of time rote learning. Any long lists made out for biochem and micro have long been forgotten/discarded. I'm counting on those subjects being a bit easier to pick up the second time round.

What clinical school are you at? Have you stayed at the same place for your entire training?

Adele

I assume you are a US student planning to take the USMLE. In my opinion, the Sydney curriculum is pretty good in terms of training physicians -- but there are some significant gaps between what is covered at Sydney and what you will need for the USMLE. The good news is that most people are able to fill in the gaps on their own and do fine on the USMLE. For example, most people have had biochemistry prior to med school and you can easily cover the USMLE material --even if it isn't covered in school. Sydney does a poor job of covering micro; however, that is easily self taught. In Australia they tend to teach the things that you will actually use and you don't memorize long lists of things you will soon forget. The USMLE tends to focus on a lot of obscure stuff. In my view, this is not a serious obstacle -- you just need to make sure you cover the USMLE material as you go.

I am a third year student at U of Sydney.

 

[JBA]

Hey Adele,
One of the biggest problems I think with PBL is the varying levels of knowledge. Obviously if you are studying physiology right now you will know much more than an arts grad. This can be pretty frustrating when PBL first starts or at the beginning of each block. However you'll be surprised how fast the 'non-science' students catch up. It's probably cause the science students become a little complacent as the intro material is covered and the non-science students really study hard. By the 3rd problem you'll be able to have discussion without too much trouble at all. And during the first few weeks the 'science' students should and often do step up to help the process along. PBL definitely gets easier as you go along and much more enjoyable...especially when you have a good group!
As for the clinical school stuff don't worry about being thrown in the deep end. The clinical days are divided into Clinical Skills (Examinations), Communication skills and Procedural skills. Each is around 1.5 hrs and you usually have one of each in a day. The doctors or instructors for each are really good. I can only speak for Concord but I never been embarrassed by a tutor. They want you to learn and ask questions, not sit back and be afraid to answer. I think you will find that Clinical Day will be the most enjoyable of Year 1.....Good luck with the upcoming interviews and let me know if you have other questions....
JBA

 

[Adele]

Hey JBA,

Thanks for all your feedback 🙂 I'm really looking forward to the PBL style. I enjoy working in groups and learn best by talking things through. I don't have any problems sharing any knowledge that I have. I'd much rather be doing that than having to sit in a lecture and simply listen all day.

Are your PBL groups made up of people based at the same clinical school as you? Do you get the chance to interact with medical students at the other medical schools a lot?

I take it that the lectures are slanted towards basic science at least for the first part of the year?

The clinical days sound great. What sort of expectations are there for those days? Do you dress up and follow people around or approach patients by yourself? What sort of assessments are involved in first year?

Cheers,
Adele

 

[nicko18]

From what i have heard from Central students it is really fend for yourself stuff. The clinical days are pretty much unstructured and lack skills sessions. It is popular though because of the show "RPA" and the fact that it's right next to the uni.

I'm at Northern, and the days are very well organised and pretty full on. All the skills sessions, labs, surgery + morgue viewings and a lot of the patients are organised for you before hand. Disadvantage it is across the bridge from usyd. I havent been to hornsby yet, but manly is small, but staff are more friendly there than RNS

 

[adnexa]

You will receive excellent teaching at both Concord and RPA. All of the USyd clinical schools have a great reputation. RPA can be a bit snobby, as can Northern. I've heard complaints about Northern with regard to poor co-ordination/scheduling too, so it's not fair to say that one hospital is better than another. It doesn't really matter which hospital you choose. What matters is the effort that you put in during the time you spend there (esp final 2 years).

 

[JBA]

Adele,
The PBL groups are made up of people from all hospitals so you definitely get a good mix 'cause one tutor at one hospital might have an interesting case to show-off. During Hematology and Oncology blocks which are done entirely at the Clinical Schools your PBL will be made up of only students from your hospital.
Lectures at the beginning of the year are pretty poor to be honest. They really try to teach you immunology and pathology but sometimes it is not done effectively...in my opinion anyways. Plus PBL takes some time to get used to so the beginning of the year might be a little frustrating. Personally I am really starting to enjoy PBL much more now. With Clinical Days you have Clinical Skills tutorial where you learn examinations and such. Then there is Communication Skills where you are taught how to approach interacting with patients in difficult or unique situations. Finally you will have Procedural Skills where you learn and practice specific medical procedure (ie ear exam, venepuncture etc) At Concord you dress up and follow your tutors around for the tutorials and then between tutorials you are expected to go yourself and practice on patients. I have been told that the patient access at Concord is the best but I'm sure you'll have a great experience everywhere.
Assessements in year 1 are:
RFA 1 & 2 - standard exams but the mark does not affect your progression through the course. (On Barriers which come in Year 2 & 3 the mark does matter).
PPD - stupid essay where you reflect on what you have experienced in year 1
Peds Assignment - make 2 visits to a young child/infant and write a report on their developmental progress
Peds Visit - observe a different child in a clinical setting
CDT - Group poster assignment on a given theme
SHAPE's (3-4) - structured history and physical examinations.....marked by your tutors
OSCE - Haven't done one yet...next week....so can't really comment

Assessment in Year 1 doesn't really seem to be anything to worry about. Most of the stuff just needs to be completed and as long it is done so satisfactorily you will move on without problem.

Any other questions let me know....JBA

Hey JBA,

Thanks for all your feedback 🙂 I'm really looking forward to the PBL style. I enjoy working in groups and learn best by talking things through. I don't have any problems sharing any knowledge that I have. I'd much rather be doing that than having to sit in a lecture and simply listen all day.

Are your PBL groups made up of people based at the same clinical school as you? Do you get the chance to interact with medical students at the other medical schools a lot?

I take it that the lectures are slanted towards basic science at least for the first part of the year?

The clinical days sound great. What sort of expectations are there for those days? Do you dress up and follow people around or approach patients by yourself? What sort of assessments are involved in first year?

Cheers,
Adele

 

[marinaw]

Hey guys - I'm trying to make up my mind between Northern and Central...any tips? Anything I should be looking at in particular? Research? Location? Let me know. Thanks!

Marina

 

[Adele]

Hi JBA,

Hope the OSCE went well (or good luck if it is today). Most of these assessments seem fairly subjective - you're seen to do well and you get a good mark. My friends' experiences with OSCEs are like that - same assessment, different supervisor - different emphasis...i would imagine that would be carried right through into medical practise. It sounds as though you could have some fun with your PPD essay 🙂 - one hopes you experienced something in first year.

Worrying about choosing which clinical school to go to seems rather futile. I'm not interested in Western (only because of its location) and there are clearly good and bad points to both the Central and Northen clinical schools. Even on selecting a first choice, i may not get assigned to the hospital i would prefer. The Sydney uni website says that the Northern Schools are about 15 minutes over the bridge. Is this a fair time estimate and is it easy to get to (maybe someone from Northern CS would be able to comment)?

How do the medical students go about finding somewhere to live? Do they tend to move close to their clinical schools or is there university accommodation that is popular (at least for the first year)?

Thanks heaps,
Adele

Adele,
I have been told that the patient access at Concord is the best but I'm sure you'll have a great experience everywhere.
Assessements in year 1 are:
RFA 1 & 2 - standard exams but the mark does not affect your progression through the course. (On Barriers which come in Year 2 & 3 the mark does matter).
PPD - stupid essay where you reflect on what you have experienced in year 1
Peds Assignment - make 2 visits to a young child/infant and write a report on their developmental progress
Peds Visit - observe a different child in a clinical setting
CDT - Group poster assignment on a given theme
SHAPE's (3-4) - structured history and physical examinations.....marked by your tutors
OSCE - Haven't done one yet...next week....so can't really comment

Assessment in Year 1 doesn't really seem to be anything to worry about. Most of the stuff just needs to be completed and as long it is done so satisfactorily you will move on without problem.

Any other questions let me know....JBA

 

[mgobovic]

I'm a bit biased as I'm a Concord student (4th year) but I'll try to give an honest assessment. I only know about the other schools through hearsay. thought Concord was excellent overall for teaching. I think it was the #1 choice for the incoming interns & I believe last year all who sat their physician's exam passed. It's a bit out of the way and it is one of the older hospitals although they finished the renovations of the new building so it looks much better & you'll probably only go to the older wards when doing the geriatrics clerkship. Attending physicians can be a bit hit or miss with regards to teaching, PBL and lectures can be very intrusive to hospital time so you don't always see them. Registrars I've found great esp leading up to the physician's exam b/c they're desperate to do histories & exams. Geriatrics is v good, cardiology, respiratory med also. Cons few skills sessions & I thought limited exposure to surgical clerkships. Psychiatry at Central was terrible (I'm in the middle of it right now) no pediatrics they rotate you through Westmead. If you choose concord be very friendly with Val and the other secretaries it will help you out when choosing your 3rd year clerkships.

RPA is in the city so that can be a big benefit. Also better funded, better known. I've heard some complaints that there isn't as good teaching but that just might be hearsay. OB/gyn was good I rotated through there b/c there was nothing at concord.

Northern I don't know much about. Wealthy area of Sydney. Opportunities for overseas electives (not US) had a classmate who went to Vietnam during Dec holidays at the end of first year. More money may mean more research opportunities I don't know maybe the same can be said for RPA. Heard about the snobbishness of RNS and RPA but not sure how much I believe that.

In the end it's probably all about what your interested. If its peds maybe you'd be better off at Westmead. RPA is convenient esp during the 1st 2 years if you're living inside Sydney.

 

[nicko18]

i was so leaving that PPD thing to the last minute i forgot all about Minto

 

[Adele]

How far is "a bit out of the way" to get to Concord from the University?

Are absentee physicians are universal - or do some of the clinical schools avoid this somehow (miraculously)?

Nicko, how goes Northern? Are you based in the city and travel out there or v.v.? How long does it take to travel? Do you enjoy being at RNS? You say you're working full-on - do many students look at/have time for research opportunities there?

 

[Adele]

I was wondering if a current Sydney student could clarify the issue of the interview format. Is the interview a straight-forward question-answer session or are "debates" and "definitions" also part of the process?

Thanks,
Adele

 

[banana k]

Adele - I'm not yet enrolled at Sydney but I did just have the interview three weeks ago and I got in, so maybe I can help you.

Anyway, they basically put me in a room with a young guy (either a fourth year or a recent graduate) and the associate dean. The interview was blind, so neither of them knew what my GPA or GAMSAT scores were, just that I had qualified. They went down the list of maybe 10-15 questions, all of which required thought and long-winded answers, but none of which were debate-style or critical of my opinions and decisions. It seemed more apt to assess empathy and reasons for going into medicine than to challenge my beliefs, and they scored me on all my answers in their notes. Then they gave me an opportunity to ask them questions.

Does that help?