Taking a history with a really talkative patient

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clinicallabguy

Larry N. Gology
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Some of you are certainly going to think this is silly, but something that I have a hard time doing is interrupting people or jumping in when someone is still in the middle of an idea when they're talking.

I did my first history and physical with a patient in a hospital room yesterday, and this guy was super talkative. I couldn't get a word in edgewise, and I ended up doing a completely inadequate history and physical. I'm a first year, so I'm just supposed to start getting experience with it now. So it was not going to be perfect anyway, but it went worse than I thought it would. I realized that it can be difficult for me to keep the conversation on the topic so I can get through a history in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm sure that next time, I just need to take control of the conversation a bit more. But I'm wondering if anybody else had a hard time with this to start out and how they overcame it.

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I just let them talk most of the times unless I am pressed for time because more likely than not the patient will tell you what is wrong with them. Now, if the patient starts going into their grandson's t-ball game or something way off topic then you just have to step in and get back on track. At this point, I would start asking more yes or no type questions (Ex: Do you smoke?). If you have to ask for more detail do so (Ex: How much do you smoke a day and for how long have you been smoking?) but try to limit their response.

Remember you don't want to ask the patient leading questions that gives them the answer you want. H&P's get more comfortable the more you do them so I really wouldn't worry about not being perfect the 1st go round. Good luck....
 
Yeah deuce is right. I usually start off with "So what brought you here today?" and the patient will go on and basically give me most of the information, HPI, signs and symptoms, and what they think it is. Just try and get the most info with the least amount of questions and when you get stuck, clarify or use your NURS and talk about how they are dealing with the problem.
 
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Interviewing- when done well- is an art form and it takes years for people to get comfortable with it so please set reasonable expectations for yourself! At this stage, focusing on listening skills is very important- you do pick up a lot by just letting someone talk. Usually you can get chunks of the family, social, and past medical history from that. At the very least, you may get an idea of social supports, barriers to compliance with care, etc.

That said, to get things back on track you can always say something like "Wow- I want to hear more about that, but let me ask you a couple of questions first about why you're here..." Patients are usually OK with that.

And from their story, you can practice following up on cues- "You said your mother was ill- what kind of medical condition does she have? (pause) What about on your father's side of the family?" etc etc.
 
It's definitely a delicate balance. The good news is it gets better with time. Your OSCE and USMLE Step 2 CS exams limit the amount of time you can spend with a patient, so I would practice trying to get all of the history and physical within 15-30 minutes. This means you should make an effort to have the history and physicals memorized for common presentations such as chest pain, headache, shortness of breath, abdominal pain, depression, etc. The more you practice, the better you will get. Finally, always develop and maintain rapport with your patients.
 
Agree with the above. Just make sure you document and report the talkativeness itself; not only does it give the rest of the team a heads-up on what to expect, but sometimes this kind of circumferential speaking can be pathologic (dementia, alcohol abuse, depression, etc).
 
Some of you are certainly going to think this is silly, but something that I have a hard time doing is interrupting people or jumping in when someone is still in the middle of an idea when they're talking.

I did my first history and physical with a patient in a hospital room yesterday, and this guy was super talkative. I couldn't get a word in edgewise, and I ended up doing a completely inadequate history and physical. I'm a first year, so I'm just supposed to start getting experience with it now. So it was not going to be perfect anyway, but it went worse than I thought it would. I realized that it can be difficult for me to keep the conversation on the topic so I can get through a history in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm sure that next time, I just need to take control of the conversation a bit more. But I'm wondering if anybody else had a hard time with this to start out and how they overcame it.



Practice, practice, and more practice. It just takes time and you won't likely feel extremely comfortable until well into your residency. Open ended questions are great...but in time you'll just learn how to redirect better. 👍
 
I hope those who grade the Step 2 CS read the posts in this thread about how you trully get ahold of this stuff after you're well into your residency. Maybe that way they can be that much more lenient in their grading. 😳
 
Open ended questions are great...but in time you'll just learn how to redirect better. 👍

Agree. It's just time and practice and you'll get better at redirecting. And this will probably come across as blasphemy to my physical diagnosis teachers, but there is a time and place for direct, close-ended questions as well...
 
Yeah deuce is right. I usually start off with "So what brought you here today?" and the patient will go on and basically give me most of the information, HPI, signs and symptoms, and what they think it is. Just try and get the most info with the least amount of questions and when you get stuck, clarify or use your NURS and talk about how they are dealing with the problem.

I agree with this I usually say "tell me about your (chief complaint)" and go from there, our school actually tells us to ask open ended questions, I actually hate when I just get yes or no answers.
 
It comes with practice. You start to hear the minute pauses where you can interupt. You come up with phrases (via trial and error) that stop the verbal spew and simultaneously doesn't offend. My first H&P took 3 hours. Today I did one in 20 minutes. (about a year later).
 
One thing I found most helpful when a patient starts rambling is to interrupt and say, "So what specifically caused you to come and be seen today?" They will usually say, "Oh, well I guess it is this headache/back pain/blood in my urine."

That way, when they start to ramble again, and they inevitably will, I can interrupt with a specific question about their chief complaint that will redirect them.
 
Agree with the above. Just make sure you document and report the talkativeness itself; not only does it give the rest of the team a heads-up on what to expect, but sometimes this kind of circumferential speaking can be pathologic (dementia, alcohol abuse, depression, etc).

Awesome advice.

I've also heard that giving them a good silent stare-down will unnerve a chatty pt when you're just trying to get the work down (psych tactic 😍) , while being a useful tool for doing the history at the same time.
 
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It comes with practice. You start to hear the minute pauses where you can interupt. You come up with phrases (via trial and error) that stop the verbal spew and simultaneously doesn't offend. My first H&P took 3 hours. Today I did one in 20 minutes. (about a year later).
wat?


The patient couldn't have been THAT talkative.
 
Over-talkative patients are a common thing, and can become a problem if it leads to insufficient history and physical.

I usually ask open questions to begin with and then let the patient talk. Studies show that if you use this approach, the majority of patients will stop talking within 2 minutes. If they keep on talking about irrelevant issues and wasting time, I put them back on track by saying "that is irrelevant just now, so we can talk about it later. Right now I need to ask certain questions so that I can help you in the best possible way" and then start with closed questions.

It may also bea good idea to start the consultation with telling the patient how much time you have for him/her today.
 
My preceptors for physical diagnosis and psychiatric medicine told us to make sure that we were always in control of the interview. There are ways to gently nudge the patient back in the right direction, but each person has to figure out which way works best.

I find that if a patient starts going off topic, it's usually about a topic that is suitable for gentle redirection to other parts of the history - Social, Family, etc. After that, I can transition back.

However, pressured speech... can't get in a word edge-wise? The first thing I think is manic episode, and I'll ask about sleep habits, "how much have you been sleeping? Oh. Only 1 hour per night for the past 2 months? Are you tired and can't sleep? Or are you so energized that you don't feel like you need to sleep?"

wat?


The patient couldn't have been THAT talkative.

If you take a very complete social history spanning the patient's entire life, do a mental status exam, do the entire physical exam... I can see it taking 3 hours. I think my first was well over 2 hours.

Practice, practice, and more practice. It just takes time and you won't likely feel extremely comfortable until well into your residency. Open ended questions are great...but in time you'll just learn how to redirect better. 👍

+1,000,000
 
wat?


The patient couldn't have been THAT talkative.

LOL, well, I can sometimes take between 1-2 hrs for a good complete H&P, so 3 hrs isn't out of the question. At my hospital, I am required to do a complete H&P on all new admits to the general medical floor; this means I literally have to assess all the systems, regardless of what they came in for. Given this, it really depends on several factors, such as the number of comorbities (you'd be astounded at how many concurrent and past medical issues some people have, especially at an inner city hospital) and the ease by which you obtain it (sometimes patients are very poor historians and you have to go scouring through old records and notes to obtain PMH and PSH, which is very time-consuming), how easy it is to obtain their current medications (some patients have an extremely long list, or have no idea what they are taking, so you have to take time to figure it out with them), the number of systems you have to review (at my hospital, I am required to basically ask all of the ROS questions, not just the pertinent ones, so I used to take a long time, until I developed a system to make it more efficient), how complex the social history is, and how cognitively and psychologically with it they are (psychotic, delusional, extremely demented, or obtunded patients can be difficult to assess on a number of levels). It's a learning process. Eventually, you learn how to assess multiple things at once and develop an eye (or ear) for the problematic items and sort of focus in on those things.

The HPI itself generally doesn't take me long to obtain, even with the chatty ones. I think probably, it takes me a few minutes at most. You learn to how to refocus patients when they go off-track and start talking about their dog, the last book they read, the dozen other non-contributory problems they have, or whatever. It takes a lot of practice and patience with yourself, because you have to make the patient feel heard, but at the same time you aren't having a friendly chat, you have a job to do. There's no real how-to advice; just keep at it and be committed to your task without blowing the patient off. Everyone develops their own style and tricks, eventually. It's like walking a puppy. When your puppy goes off-track, gently reel him in and keep at it until you are going the right direction. Over time, you'll find the openings and develop an instinct for what is important. In the meantime, don't be afraid to try different tactics and see what works and what doesn't.

When the patient isn't too complex, I can probably finish the H&P in about 30 minutes, including analyzing all their studies and labs, doing the assessment, plan, and writing orders that need to be written. However, if it's an 85-year-old patient with dementia with psychosis and 20 comorbities (or worse, the completely uncooperative patient or patient who thinks they know exactly what's wrong with them, instead of being cooperative with your interview; those patients probably are the most difficult patients to assess, because they may actively impede you, or try to lead you down the wrong road), and a long social history filled with numerous red-flag items, and a management nightmare due to complicating factors, then it could take up to an hour or more. For me lately, the challenge has been learning how to very quickly put the whole medical picture together based on the H&P, old records, lab work, and other studies, well enough to present the patient in a coherent and concise manner, painting a certain scene based on what they are really here for (which many not be the same thing as their chief complaint).

Anyway, stick with it and keep practicing and learning how to refocus the interview. Avoid being too succinct, however. You might miss what the patient is REALLY here for, or a really critical element (for instance, you don't want to be that guy who misses the fact that your patient is also on Levemir 40-units qhs / Humalog sliding-scale, even though they are DM-2 and on Metformin and Amaryl, or that your patient habitually drinks a fifth of vodka every day).
 
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Prob beating a dead horse here, but I'll add +1 to the practice, practice, practice bandwagon.

Not that I'm anywhere near taking a "great" history, but I think I've come a million miles from what I used to do as a first/second year. I think this was because we just didn't have enough experience - we had a clinical sequence maybe 3-4 times a year, during which we'd do maybe 1-2 H+Ps. 4 H+P's a year, spaced months apart, is not nearly enough. I used to think it was impossible to remember all the questions you needed to ask, or remember all the musculoskeletal exam tests, or all the portions of a comprehensive neuro exam.

However, when you go from doing 5 H+P's a year to 5 H+P's every couple of days or 5+ histories every day in clinic, things get MUCH easier. That extensive list of questions that you had to search the recesses of your brain for come much more naturally. You still forget some, but it becomes rarer. You learn what the most important portions of the exam are. You become more confident and more comfortable.

Also, it depends on context. Taking an H+P on an inpatient medicine service, for example, will require you to be more thorough, than, say, taking an H+P in an ENT outpatient clinic, or taking a history on a trauma patient in the ED. You also get much better at figuring out what to do in each situation.

AND, never forget, there are residents and attendings who make mistakes or forget things, too. 🙂

Edit: apparently my ADD caused me to hit the reply button too fast. My point was, as you become more comfortable with the process in general, you start developing ways of refocusing the history. If you go in with an agenda of information you need to acquire (keep in mind - modify according to patient's agenda as well), it's easier than if you kind of go in there not knowing what's going to happen. Experience also makes it easier to roll with the punches (or with the slew of verbalization) when the unexpected does happen.
 
LOL, well, I can sometimes take between 1-2 hrs for a good complete H&P, so 3 hrs isn't out of the question. At my hospital, I am required to do a complete H&P on all new admits to the general medical floor; this means I literally have to assess all the systems, regardless of what they came in for. Given this, it really depends on several factors, such as the number of comorbities (you'd be astounded at how many concurrent and past medical issues some people have, especially at an inner city hospital) and the ease by which you obtain it (sometimes patients are very poor historians and you have to go scouring through old records and notes to obtain PMH and PSH, which is very time-consuming), how easy it is to obtain their current medications (some patients have an extremely long list, or have no idea what they are taking, so you have to take time to figure it out with them), the number of systems you have to review (at my hospital, I am required to basically ask all of the ROS questions, not just the pertinent ones, so I used to take a long time, until I developed a system to make it more efficient), how complex the social history is, and how cognitively and psychologically with it they are (psychotic, delusional, extremely demented, or obtunded patients can be difficult to assess on a number of levels). It's a learning process. Eventually, you learn how to assess multiple things at once and develop an eye (or ear) for the problematic items and sort of focus in on those things.

The HPI itself generally doesn't take me long to obtain, even with the chatty ones. I think probably, it takes me a few minutes at most. You learn to how to refocus patients when they go off-track and start talking about their dog, the last book they read, the dozen other non-contributory problems they have, or whatever. It takes a lot of practice and patience with yourself, because you have to make the patient feel heard, but at the same time you aren't having a friendly chat, you have a job to do. There's no real how-to advice; just keep at it and be committed to your task without blowing the patient off. Everyone develops their own style and tricks, eventually. It's like walking a puppy. When your puppy goes off-track, gently reel him in and keep at it until you are going the right direction. Over time, you'll find the openings and develop an instinct for what is important. In the meantime, don't be afraid to try different tactics and see what works and what doesn't.

When the patient isn't too complex, I can probably finish the H&P in about 30 minutes, including analyzing all their studies and labs, doing the assessment, plan, and writing orders that need to be written. However, if it's an 85-year-old patient with dementia with psychosis and 20 comorbities (or worse, the completely uncooperative patient or patient who thinks they know exactly what's wrong with them, instead of being cooperative with your interview; those patients probably are the most difficult patients to assess, because they may actively impede you, or try to lead you down the wrong road), and a long social history filled with numerous red-flag items, and a management nightmare due to complicating factors, then it could take up to an hour or more. For me lately, the challenge has been learning how to very quickly put the whole medical picture together based on the H&P, old records, lab work, and other studies, well enough to present the patient in a coherent and concise manner, painting a certain scene based on what they are really here for (which many not be the same thing as their chief complaint).

Anyway, stick with it and keep practicing and learning how to refocus the interview. Avoid being too succinct, however. You might miss what the patient is REALLY here for, or a really critical element (for instance, you don't want to be that guy who misses the fact that your patient is also on Levemir 40-units qhs / Humalog sliding-scale, even though they are DM-2 and on Metformin and Amaryl, or that your patient habitually drinks a fifth of vodka every day).
Nice post.

I guess the reason it struck me that it could take 2-3 hours to take a Hx is because I'm currently preparing for the Step 2 CS and we basically have to fit it all in 15 minutes. Then again, the Step 2 CS cases require us to do only a focused H&P.
 
Over-talkative patients are a common thing, and can become a problem if it leads to insufficient history and physical.

I usually ask open questions to begin with and then let the patient talk. Studies show that if you use this approach, the majority of patients will stop talking within 2 minutes. If they keep on talking about irrelevant issues and wasting time, I put them back on track by saying "that is irrelevant just now, so we can talk about it later. Right now I need to ask certain questions so that I can help you in the best possible way" and then start with closed questions.

It may also bea good idea to start the consultation with telling the patient how much time you have for him/her today.

I hope you're not serious about this advice. I can't decide which is worse. Telling a patient that something is "irrelevant" (even if you say "just now and we'll talk about it later), or that you "only have x amount of minutes to spend with them today." Nothing like getting off on the right foot, eh? 🙄

^ Major FAIL.
 
If you tell a patient something is irrelevant, they're probably going to 1) think you're arrogant or don't really care, or 2) only give you what they think you want to hear and not the whole picture to save you some time. Telling them how much time you have upfront is good just so they understand that you do have other patients or w/e, just as long as you don't say it in a bad way.

If they are rambling on about something, you could try interjecting and saying "before we get too far off track, let's talk some more about (whatever the problem is)."
 
we actually had an entire lecture about this very problem. now, I am only an M1 and have not had the opportunity to try out these techniques, so I cannot vouch for them personally. but, here are two things that were mentioned to us:

1) start to laugh
2) touch the person on the arm/shoulder

the goal being to surprise the patient enough to interrupt their train of thought long enough for you to redirect.

also, a few of the other replies on here seem wrong to me. personally, i would never want to hear how much time my physician has, and i hope i never find myself saying that to one of my patients.
 
I'm sure that next time, I just need to take control of the conversation a bit more. But I'm wondering if anybody else had a hard time with this to start out and how they overcame it.

marshmallows. works every time.
 
Sometimes it's ok to cut a pt off when they're rambling at length. Important thing is to take control of the situation.
 
I hope you're not serious about this advice. I can't decide which is worse. Telling a patient that something is "irrelevant" (even if you say "just now and we'll talk about it later), or that you "only have x amount of minutes to spend with them today." Nothing like getting off on the right foot, eh? 🙄

^ Major FAIL.
I'm pretty sure I would find it hard to stop myself from headbutting any doctor who told me what I was saying was "irrelevant."
 
I've been in practice two years - - - and the patient's continue to be talkative.

Ask an open ended question at the beginning, it will give you most of the HPI, ROS etc. . . It is pretty useful.

When patient's get to talk, they like you. I have had several patient's tell me, "You're the only doctor who listened to me." They were satisfied patients. . . happy.

Even if you're in a rush, or behind in clinic, patient's want to be heard. Let them talk.
 
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