Talk to me about student loans

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Jim_Bob

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
12
Reaction score
2
Who has refinanced? Consolidated? Who is doing PAYE vs standard repayment. What’s working for everyone.

Signed,
Terrified new dentist with student loans due in a couple of months

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
Similar situation. 230k balance here, and married with kids. First year in practice.

Our combined income will probably be around 200-220k between me and my wife, and after loans, daycare, and typical living expenses, we are basically poor. We are vigorously budgeting and tracking every dollar. Living in the northeast doesn’t help, but it’s a similar picture in other major hubs of the country.

Living with parents currently because we can’t afford a house and probably won’t be able to for the foreseeable future. I plan to work with a financial advisor to see the best way out of this mess.

I cannot fathom being a new grad with 400-500k. That is literally back breaking.
 
Similar situation. 230k balance here, and married with kids. First year in practice.

Our combined income will probably be around 200-220k between me and my wife, and after loans, daycare, and typical living expenses, we are basically poor. We are vigorously budgeting and tracking every dollar. Living in the northeast doesn’t help, but it’s a similar picture in other major hubs of the country.

Living with parents currently because we can’t afford a house and probably won’t be able to for the foreseeable future. I plan to work with a financial advisor to see the best way out of this mess.

I cannot fathom being a new grad with 400-500k. That is literally back breaking.

Sorry I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't understand how you could be "basically poor" with a combined income of 200-220k? I get that maybe depending on how many kids you have it could be more expensive.

I'm trying to understand what my finances might look like after graduation with around 430k in student loans. After taxes and student loan repayment of 10% of income I can't imagine that anyone could still be "poor." As someone who has always lived off of less than 30k a year the money seems pretty good to me. I don't need a fancy car or home (although I would definitely like them.)

Starting income: 150k
Taxes: -30k
Student loans: -15k
Rent: -20k

Leftover for any other expenses: 85k (7k/month)

That seems pretty good to me especially when working 4-5 days a week. Does this projection sound somewhat close to accurate?
 
I'm trying to understand what my finances might look like after graduation with around 430k in student loans.
Answer: Bleak

Life is always going to be more expensive than you think. Always.

You say you’re only going to pay $15,000/year towards your loans. However, your monthly payment to pay that off in 20 years is probably a little more than $3,000, or $35,000+/year. Your $15,000 wouldn’t even cover your accrued interest, like it’s $10,000 short. So, your plan is to let your loans snowball out of control? Are you trying to be the next Dr. Meru? Have fun with that!

Big Hoss
 
Starting income: 150k
Taxes: -30k
Student loans: -15k
Rent: -20k

Leftover for any other expenses: 85k (7k/month)

That seems pretty good to me especially when working 4-5 days a week. Does this projection sound somewhat close to accurate?

I think you’ve underestimated much of your expenses. After state, social security, Medicare, and fed taxes, you’ll be paying more than 30k in taxes.

Your student loan payment is way too low. Where do you figure 10% of income? A 10 year payoff on that note is almost 4500 a month (54k a year). 25 years is 2500 (30k a year), but at the end of 25 years you’ll pay back almost 800 grand. That’s insane. If you do income based repayment, if the program even stays alive that long, you’ll be paying a very large tax balloon payment when it’s “forgiven”.

Rent of about 1600 a month that you quoted is probably reasonable depending on your area, but don’t expect more than a 1 bedroom in any major metropolitan area.

Your starting income could be overestimated depending on where you’re looking to work. It’s reasonable for a place like aspen but if I worked corporate dentistry I’d be burned out pretty fast.

You’re also forgetting other expenses. Disability insurance, malpractice insurance, health insurance (definitely not cheap), and funding a retirement account so you can put down the hand piece one day.

Throw in daycare for kids if you have any, which is on average equal to your typical housing rent payment per month, and you can see how in our situation, we’re pretty close to living paycheck to paycheck. Sucks but it’s kind of a reality.

Not to mention we don’t have a house, and I don’t own a practice.

So, just going off of your one post, much more goes into it than you think. My advice with debt that large is to live like a college student for a long time until you’ve paid the debt off. And for debt that big, unfortunately that could be a while.
 
Last edited:
Similar situation. 230k balance here, and married with kids. First year in practice.

Our combined income will probably be around 200-220k between me and my wife, and after loans, daycare, and typical living expenses, we are basically poor. We are vigorously budgeting and tracking every dollar. Living in the northeast doesn’t help, but it’s a similar picture in other major hubs of the country.

Living with parents currently because we can’t afford a house and probably won’t be able to for the foreseeable future. I plan to work with a financial advisor to see the best way out of this mess.

I cannot fathom being a new grad with 400-500k. That is literally back breaking.

I find your situation to be quite disconcerting. You have average debt with an average salary; yet, you're struggling to make ends meet. This is quite scary.
 
Sorry I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't understand how you could be "basically poor" with a combined income of 200-220k? I get that maybe depending on how many kids you have it could be more expensive.

I'm trying to understand what my finances might look like after graduation with around 430k in student loans. After taxes and student loan repayment of 10% of income I can't imagine that anyone could still be "poor." As someone who has always lived off of less than 30k a year the money seems pretty good to me. I don't need a fancy car or home (although I would definitely like them.)

Starting income: 150k
Taxes: -30k
Student loans: -15k
Rent: -20k

Leftover for any other expenses: 85k (7k/month)

That seems pretty good to me especially when working 4-5 days a week. Does this projection sound somewhat close to accurate?

It’s ok that you don’t understand but you will have kids, a house, family whatever and that will take a lot to manage.

When you entered dental school, you probably thought meh whatever study hard this and that I’ll be fine. And you were. But it was much much harder then expected and some days were flat out rough.

That’s how life after school is with debt. Seems easy but it’s not. Fortunately dental school is 4 years and you are cleared from those rough days... while 400k loans will take much much much longer to clear out. Welcome to the student loan bubble. Next crisis after the subprime mortgage shenanigans. When will it pop? Nobody knows but these loans are non dischargable so you gotta pay up for rest of your life.
 
I think you’ve underestimated much of your expenses. After state, social security, Medicare, and fed taxes, you’ll be paying more than 30k in taxes.

Your student loan payment is way too low. Where do you figure 10% of income? A 10 year payoff on that note is almost 4500 a month (54k a year). 25 years is 2500 (30k a year), but at the end of 25 years you’ll pay back almost 800 grand. That’s insane. If you do income based repayment, if the program even stays alive that long, you’ll be paying a very large tax balloon payment when it’s “forgiven”.

Rent of about 1600 a month that you quoted is probably reasonable depending on your area, but don’t expect more than a 1 bedroom in any major metropolitan area.

Your starting income could be overestimated depending on where you’re looking to work. It’s reasonable for a place like aspen but if I worked corporate dentistry I’d be burned out pretty fast.

You’re also forgetting other expenses. Disability insurance, malpractice insurance, health insurance (definitely not cheap), and funding a retirement account so you can put down the hand piece one day.

Throw in daycare for kids if you have any, which is on average equal to your typical housing rent payment per month, and you can see how in our situation, we’re pretty close to living paycheck to paycheck. Sucks but it’s kind of a reality.

Not to mention we don’t have a house, and I don’t own a practice.

So, just going off of your one post, much more goes into it than you think. My advice with debt that large is to live like a college student for a long time until you’ve paid the debt off. And for debt that big, unfortunately that could be a while.

If you have $200+ in student loans, you are poor. Despite your income, you are broke. People need to stop living like they are rich doctors, when they are broke.
 
Sorry I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't understand how you could be "basically poor" with a combined income of 200-220k? I get that maybe depending on how many kids you have it could be more expensive.

I'm trying to understand what my finances might look like after graduation with around 430k in student loans. After taxes and student loan repayment of 10% of income I can't imagine that anyone could still be "poor." As someone who has always lived off of less than 30k a year the money seems pretty good to me. I don't need a fancy car or home (although I would definitely like them.)

Starting income: 150k
Taxes: -30k
Student loans: -15k
Rent: -20k

Leftover for any other expenses: 85k (7k/month)

That seems pretty good to me especially when working 4-5 days a week. Does this projection sound somewhat close to accurate?

The taxes are closer to 50k
 
Members don't see this ad :)
On DentalTown there are more young dentists on there who talk about this. There aren't many young dentists browsing SDN as there are on DentalTown.

I've read nearly every post on there about it. Those who are doing well moved far into rural areas and did extensive research in their 3rd and 4th years to find a practice they could buy quickly out of school in an area that had a demand for dentists. Then there are those who are really struggling, and they are in urban areas, both associating and owners.

Although, the ones who paid off ridiculous debt in a couple of years I look at as inspiration but not so much as realistic. If you kicked debt's butt, you're going to brag about it. If you're making minimum payments each month and your student debt is like concrete shoes, you won't be speaking too much about it
 
On DentalTown there are more young dentists on there who talk about this. There aren't many young dentists browsing SDN as there are on DentalTown.

I've read nearly every post on there about it. Those who are doing well moved far into rural areas and did extensive research in their 3rd and 4th years to find a practice they could buy quickly out of school in an area that had a demand for dentists. Then there are those who are really struggling, and they are in urban areas, both associating and owners.

Although, the ones who paid off ridiculous debt in a couple of years I look at as inspiration but not so much as realistic. If you kicked debt's butt, you're going to brag about it. If you're making minimum payments each month and your student debt is like concrete shoes, you won't be speaking too much about it

Thanks for sharing! I will go look into DentalTown!
 
can any practicing dentist elaborate about how you have been managing these big student loans?
I feel like the replies are missing the main points of this post
Step 1) Move to where competition is minimal and the demand is high. So, say goodbye to most metropolitan areas.

Step 2) Live below your means. Yes, your car may be more than 5 years old.

Big Hoss
 
I graduated last June with 315k in loans, and 5k in credit care debt. $73k is from the Health Professions Loan, so repayment doesn’t start until June 2019.

My situation:
- no kids, not married. Living with boyfriend in 2 bed/2 bath apartment in a city with moderate cost of living.
- monthly income varies... my schedule is variable because my boss is variable. Haha. I usually take home at least $3000 every couple weeks AFTER taxes. Sometimes more, sometimes less depending on production.
- no health insurance, no 401k.
- bills to pay: my half of monthly rent is $820, my family cell phone bills, half utilities, occasional bills for prescription meds.
- I drive a 2003 Toyota Camry gifted to me by my dad. 150k miles. He also pays for car insurance. I don’t need anything fancy.
- I didn’t consolidate, don’t plan on refinancing at this time (credit score is good, but after shopping around for rates, I think I’m better off waiting for now).
- I stuck to the standard 10 year repayment plan. I did this to put a fire on my ass so I can get these loans over with.
- even though I have no kids and am not married, I was not in a situation to move to a rural area. My boyfriend has job limitations, and I think my parents would die if I moved that far away. (They’re still complaining and whining about how I abandoned them because I don’t live at home. I live 30 min away).

When I started working in August 2018, I started paying off CC debt, finished that up within a couple months, then started tackling student loans.
I currently contribute $4500 every month to the one lender in repayment. My minimum monthly is $2500 and I throw in that extra $2000 directly towards the loans with highest interest.

I budgeted so I pay AT LEAST $4000 every month towards loans. I still have enough for rent, utilities, savings, and a little extra cushion in my checkings for a little fun. Am I living a lavish lifestyle? Absolutely not. I live comfortable for my means while still having peace of mind that I’m fighting my monster the right way.

I have already paid off over $15k in only 4 months. I still have a long way to go. If I continue this, I’ll be done around 5 years. I may even go more aggressively at it when my second lender goes into repayment.

This is all a game, and you win or lose depending on how you play it. And there are multiple ways of playing and winning, but you might leave the battle with more wounds.
I told my classmates of my aggressive plan to pay it back, some of them were against it. Told me they wanted to do IBR in order to stretch it out as long as possible. Take the extra money and invest, prepare for the tax bomb, or take that money and prepare to open up a practice to bring in more income to pay off the loans then.

Everyone is in a different situation, and everyone has different goals. Think of what YOU want and what will fit best into your lifestyle.
For me, I’m just imagining making my last loan repayment in 5 years, and then feeling super accomplished, pocketing an extra $4500/month, while most of my classmates are still paying their minimum $1500/month for another 15-20 years, and then get ambushed by the tax bomb...!
 
Last edited:
Very informative post @dPseh, thank you. I have a couple questions if you don't mind
Are you an associate at a private practice, or do you work corporate? And what interest rates are your loans at?
 
Very informative post @dPseh, thank you. I have a couple questions if you don't mind
Are you an associate at a private practice, or do you work corporate? And what interest rates are your loans at?
I am currently sitting at 5-6.8%. That 6.8% is on its last leg though. When I’m done with that, my highest will be 6.3%.

My lowest is 5%, which is my subsidized health professions loan (that aforementioned $73k loan).

I currently work as an associate at a private practice. Accepts all types of insurance including Medicaid (for basic services only).
 
I graduated last June with 315k in loans, and 5k in credit care debt. $73k is from the Health Professions Loan, so repayment doesn’t start until June 2019.

My situation:
- no kids, not married. Living with boyfriend in 2 bed/2 bath apartment in a city with moderate cost of living.
- monthly income varies... my schedule is variable because my boss is variable. Haha. I usually take home at least $3000 every couple weeks AFTER taxes. Sometimes more, sometimes less depending on production.
- no health insurance, no 401k.
- bills to pay: my half of monthly rent is $820, my family cell phone bills, half utilities, occasional bills for prescription meds.
- I drive a 2003 Toyota Camry gifted to me by my dad. 150k miles. He also pays for car insurance. I don’t need anything fancy.
- I didn’t consolidate, don’t plan on refinancing at this time (credit score is good, but after shopping around for rates, I think I’m better off waiting for now).
- I stuck to the standard 10 year repayment plan. I did this to put a fire on my ass so I can get these loans over with.
- even though I have no kids and am not married, I was not in a situation to move to a rural area. My boyfriend has job limitations, and I think my parents would die if I moved that far away. (They’re still complaining and whining about how I abandoned them because I don’t live at home. I live 30 min away).

When I started working in August 2018, I started paying off CC debt, finished that up within a couple months, then started tackling student loans.
I currently contribute $4500 every month to the one lender in repayment. My minimum monthly is $2500 and I throw in that extra $2000 directly towards the loans with highest interest.

I budgeted so I pay AT LEAST $4000 every month towards loans. I still have enough for rent, utilities, savings, and a little extra cushion in my checkings for a little fun. Am I living a lavish lifestyle? Absolutely not. I live comfortable for my means while still having peace of mind that I’m fighting my monster the right way.

I have already paid off over $15k in only 4 months. I still have a long way to go. If I continue this, I’ll be done around 5 years. I may even go more aggressively at it when my second lender goes into repayment.

This is all a game, and you win or lose depending on how you play it. And there are multiple ways of playing and winning, but you might leave the battle with more wounds.
I told my classmates of my aggressive plan to pay it back, some of them were against it. Told me they wanted to do IBR in order to stretch it out as long as possible. Take the extra money and invest, prepare for the tax bomb, or take that money and prepare to open up a practice to bring in more income to pay off the loans then.

Everyone is in a different situation, and everyone has different goals. Think of what YOU want and what will fit best into your lifestyle.
For me, I’m just imagining making my last loan repayment in 5 years, and then feeling super accomplished, pocketing an extra $4500/month, while most of my classmates are still paying their minimum $1500/month for another 15-20 years, and then get ambushed by the tax bomb...!

The only thing I would say about your situation is that you are working your tail off. If you go into practice ownership, you can easily work 4 days a week, pay back equity into your own practice, and pay off your student loans easily within 3-5 years....while working way less then an associate.

See I was the same like you after I graduated. I worked 5-6 days a week, I put in alot of time and effort and paid off my loans in 3 years. But I worked for someone, and I didn't build equity. I worked hard, and I paid off the loans and didn't think about investing, 401k, or whatever.

After owning a practice, I realized I lost out on alot.

1) Time off. You are only young once. Working during Xmas/thxgiving/whatever in your 20's sucks.
2) Your actual pay...sucks.
3) I lost out on 2-3 years of investment returns. If you looked at the 2014 climb to 2018, I could of literally tripled my portfolio.
4) I lost out on 401k returns


Overall I'm gaining more in the long run versus the short term.

What this means is that, yes loans are important and it should be a focal point of getting rid of them. I respect that, but the folks on IBR are doing something smart if they plan on buying a practice later. Take it easy, learn the ropes, and hit the ownership route when the time is right (usually around year 1-2) and you will be way better off then just hitting the slopes hard 5-6 days a week, paying back 4k a month and working straight 5-10 years. It's a surefire way to burnout. Don't underestimate burnout- it will kill your career.
 
The only thing I would say about your situation is that you are working your tail off. If you go into practice ownership, you can easily work 4 days a week, pay back equity into your own practice, and pay off your student loans easily within 3-5 years....while working way less then an associate.

See I was the same like you after I graduated. I worked 5-6 days a week, I put in alot of time and effort and paid off my loans in 3 years. But I worked for someone, and I didn't build equity. I worked hard, and I paid off the loans and didn't think about investing, 401k, or whatever.

After owning a practice, I realized I lost out on alot.

1) Time off. You are only young once. Working during Xmas/thxgiving/whatever in your 20's sucks.
2) Your actual pay...sucks.
3) I lost out on 2-3 years of investment returns. If you looked at the 2014 climb to 2018, I could of literally tripled my portfolio.
4) I lost out on 401k returns


Overall I'm gaining more in the long run versus the short term.

What this means is that, yes loans are important and it should be a focal point of getting rid of them. I respect that, but the folks on IBR are doing something smart if they plan on buying a practice later. Take it easy, learn the ropes, and hit the ownership route when the time is right (usually around year 1-2) and you will be way better off then just hitting the slopes hard 5-6 days a week, paying back 4k a month and working straight 5-10 years. It's a surefire way to burnout. Don't underestimate burnout- it will kill your career.

You’re not wrong. I did say that everyone has different priorities and goals in their life.
At this point, I don’t want to open up my own practice. Maybe not even at this point, maybe never. I don’t like business, and I see how much work it takes to make a business run well. I see my boss running around, staying late, paperwork paperwork paperwork, etc.
I’m not about that life. I want to leave work at work, not have to worry about my loss of income when I go on vaca, worrying about keeping my staff busy, worry about slow days/weeks/months, overhead... I’m okay being an associate for the rest of my life, making 100k+, as long as I can live comfortably. I just want to do dentistry, and do what I like.

This is how I feel right now, as of this moment. Things could change when I have a family, or get bored of associate-ing.... but then again, maybe I’ll want to go back to school and specialize in something. The future holds so much. And if things do change, then I’ll accept the losses of trying hard to pay off my loans.

I AM concerned about the burnout, but I think I’ll burn myself out from business stress faster than being in the clinic 5 days a week. I really hate the thought of running my own business.

Definite pros to owning your own practice though. Way more autonomy, vacation whenever, sky’s the limit on income. Someone told me once that you’re never getting paid as much as you’re worth as an associate.
But the thought of owning a practice... not for me. At least not now. Haha.
 
Last edited:
You’re not wrong. I did say that everyone has different priorities and goals in their life.
At this point, I don’t want to open up my own practice. Maybe not even at this point, maybe never. I don’t like business, and I see how much work it takes to make a business run well. I see my boss running around, staying late, paperwork paperwork paperwork, etc.
I’m not about that life. I want to leave work at work, not have to worry about my loss of income when I go on vaca, worrying about keeping my staff busy, worry about slow days/weeks/months, overhead... I’m okay being an associate for the rest of my life, making 100k+, as long as I can live comfortably. I just want to do dentistry, and do what I like.

This is how I feel right now, as of this moment. Things could change when I have a family, or get bored of associate-ing.... but then again, maybe I’ll want to go back to school and specialize in something. The future holds so much. And if things do change, then I’ll accept the losses of trying hard to pay off my loans.

I AM concerned about the burnout, but I think I’ll burn myself out from business stress faster than being in the clinic 5 days a week. I really hate the thought of running my own business.

Definite pros to owning your own practice though. Way more autonomy, vacation whenever, sky’s the limit on income. Someone told me once that you’re never getting paid as much as you’re worth as an associate.
But the thought of owning a practice... not for me. At least not now. Haha.
If you are not ready to start you own office now, then paying off the student loan ASAP is the right thing to do. Like you, I didn’t listen to my friends, who had advised me to consolidate/refinance my student loan to a lower interest rate and to stretch it out to a 30-year repayment period. Some of my friends did this so they could lower the required minimum monthly payments and buy themselves nice things. I wanted to pay off the loan ASAP but I also wanted a nice house, furniture, cars, vacations like my friends….so I worked 6-7 days/week. At that time, my wife and I were still a newly wed couple and had no kid. We both worked a lot….and we also spent a lot.

DPseh, you are still very young and you have plenty of time to decide whether to set up your own practice in the future or not. I had worked as an associate for 4 years before I decided to start my own office. I was 34 years old when I set up my first office. I am 47 now and plan to slow down in 2 years, when I pay off my home mortgage…and become 100% debt-free. I already paid off all of my investment properties.

Having your own office does not necessarily guarantee that you’ll make more. I know plenty of dentists who couldn’t run their own practices successfully, had to sell the practices, and went back to work for the corp offices.
 
Last edited:
I just got accepted into dental school, and I start next August. Can anyone elaborate on how one even takes out a loan? Does one end up having to pay anything out of pocket? Should I visit a bank for a loan? Are there scholarships I need to know about?
 
I just got accepted into dental school, and I start next August. Can anyone elaborate on how one even takes out a loan? Does one end up having to pay anything out of pocket? Should I visit a bank for a loan? Are there scholarships I need to know about?

And this is why student loan debt are out of control. You have people applying and accepting schools for half a million dollars with no clue about finances. No clue. Might as well give yourself a 500k home loan and go with that to.

Anyways, your school should be able to direct you to financial aid. Good luck young one.
 
And this is why student loan debt are out of control. You have people applying and accepting schools for half a million dollars with no clue about finances. No clue. Might as well give yourself a 500k home loan and go with that to.

Anyways, your school should be able to direct you to financial aid. Good luck young one.

Thank you. I would like to point out that I am a first generation dentist, and my mother was a first generation college student. I'm not even sure if my dad completed high school, as he is not apart of my life. I'm coming into this with disadvantages and I'm figuring out a lot on my own.
 
DPseh, you are still very young and you have plenty of time to decide whether to set up your own practice in the future or not. I had worked as an associate for 4 years before I decided to start my own office. I was 34 years old when I set up my first office. I am 47 now and plan to slow down in 2 years, when I pay off my home mortgage…and become 100% debt-free. I already paid off all of my investment properties.

Having your own office does not necessarily guarantee that you’ll make more. I know plenty of dentists who couldn’t run their own practices successfully, had to sell the practices, and went back to work for the corp offices.

I fortunately grew up with frugal parents, so I’m very used to living a more low key lifestyle...!

You couldn’t be more right about that second point. I’ve heard some horror stories from older colleagues whose friends have tried opening up practices in busy, saturated cities, and are barely staying afloat, owing $$$$ in bank loans.
It’s definitely a gamble!

Thank you for your words of advice! 🙂
 
Thank you. I would like to point out that I am a first generation dentist, and my mother was a first generation college student. I'm not even sure if my dad completed high school, as he is not apart of my life. I'm coming into this with disadvantages and I'm figuring out a lot on my own.
If you have access to the internet, you have a plethora of knowledge just a few clicks away.

Finances are a massive part of life and something you need to do research about. @Rainee wasn't being rude, but your first post is why kids are going $400k+ in debt for dental school because they have done no research on the implications of that debt, they just want to be dentists.

Your dental school will help you through the loan process. I would recommend doing your own research on how interest works, and look into how you're going to pay your loans off.
 
Thank you. I would like to point out that I am a first generation dentist, and my mother was a first generation college student. I'm not even sure if my dad completed high school, as he is not apart of my life. I'm coming into this with disadvantages and I'm figuring out a lot on my own.

I'm a first gen student too and my parents did not even graduate high school, but that does not mean I haven't done my due diligence. In fact, it means I have to go above and beyond. Living a frugal life I understand how hard people have to work for their money. There is a plethora of info on the SDN forum and Dentaltown if you look for it. DentalTown to me was a bit more helpful because they are not afraid to bring out the negatives, just keep in mind the audience on DentalTown are mainly older gen dentists that would not like to work harder than they already have. For the most part of it, financial aid (FAFSA) will help you out. Your school provides a list of estimated prices and that list will determine how much you can take out (loans). I think its Tuition fees and some living. You do not have to take all the money. Calculate the cost and add a bit for emergencies. If your budget exceeds the amount that the school estimated lists provides then you are on your on with the rest.
 
You’re not wrong. I did say that everyone has different priorities and goals in their life.
At this point, I don’t want to open up my own practice. Maybe not even at this point, maybe never. I don’t like business, and I see how much work it takes to make a business run well. I see my boss running around, staying late, paperwork paperwork paperwork, etc.
I’m not about that life. I want to leave work at work, not have to worry about my loss of income when I go on vaca, worrying about keeping my staff busy, worry about slow days/weeks/months, overhead... I’m okay being an associate for the rest of my life, making 100k+, as long as I can live comfortably. I just want to do dentistry, and do what I like.

This is how I feel right now, as of this moment. Things could change when I have a family, or get bored of associate-ing.... but then again, maybe I’ll want to go back to school and specialize in something. The future holds so much. And if things do change, then I’ll accept the losses of trying hard to pay off my loans.

I AM concerned about the burnout, but I think I’ll burn myself out from business stress faster than being in the clinic 5 days a week. I really hate the thought of running my own business.

Definite pros to owning your own practice though. Way more autonomy, vacation whenever, sky’s the limit on income. Someone told me once that you’re never getting paid as much as you’re worth as an associate.
But the thought of owning a practice... not for me. At least not now. Haha.

Some thoughts on burnout. Practicing hardcore as an associate is a sole recipe for burnout.

I understand you see your owner working hard but I crunched some numbers for you:

1) I do 70% less actual fill and drill dentistry then my previous associate to make the same amount.

2) I work 20% less overall in the year by working 4 days a week.

3) Substanstially increases income.

4) All my bills are on autopay. The only things I really do are 5/20 payroll which takes 5 min. First of the month state taxes which take me 5 min. There’s this misconception that there’s a lot of paperwork to do be a business owner. There really isn’t. It seems like hard work because you don’t know what you are doing. But it really isn’t hard.

I have a calendar marked on my desk of days where I have to do obligations. Once you do them once you are doing them every month and super easy the 2-3rd time around.

The hardest part is staff management but that’s easily fixed with an enforced rule book. Delegate duties and hold people accountable. Not hard. If you get a great staff... you don’t need to do anything. If you have crappy staff then Yes it will be headache.

You are young in your career but you will learn later. I advise anyone to pursue ownership when you are clinically ready. Overall in actuality you work way less if you are a successful owner dentistry wise, dental work day and sky is the limit for income.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'd be hesitant to tell someone who has little money, is $400k in debt to buy a practice right out of school. You are easily looking at 7 figures of debt. Sounds like a good way to go into bankruptcy.

The thing that really blows about dPseh's situation is her income. $3k very 2 weeks is $78k per year. Going $400k in debt to make just over a hundred. I really hope she has a lot more income coming down the pipe. Those ratios are terrible. Really needs to double income to make it less terrible. Really would consider moving to get this done in 4 or 5 years.
 
I'd be hesitant to tell someone who has little money, is $400k in debt to buy a practice right out of school. You are easily looking at 7 figures of debt. Sounds like a good way to go into bankruptcy.

The thing that really blows about dPseh's situation is her income. $3k very 2 weeks is $78k per year. Going $400k in debt to make just over a hundred. I really hope she has a lot more income coming down the pipe. Those ratios are terrible. Really needs to double income to make it less terrible. Really would consider moving to get this done in 4 or 5 years.

Dentistry has the second lowest rate of bankruptcy in the lending business. Your typical restaurant runs on 3-5% profit margin. Dentistry runs on 40-50%

That being said, I do recommend clinical competency first before buying a practice. It took me 2 years before I was comfortable. Some people it takes longer and some people shorter.

Anyways to each his own, but the I notice your last comment about moving and getting rid of student loans. That basically means increasing cash flow. The only way you are going to do that is going super rural getting lucky and working your tail off in an associateships that I’ve never heard of or buying a practice.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I started out with ~$300k (probably more like ~$325k with the interest accrued in school) about 10 years ago. I consolidated to 30 years to decrease the interest rate and started paying it off as quick as I could. My original goal was 5 years, then 7 and reality is just over 10. I did a GPR (lost a lot of earnings) and took some low paying associate jobs (lost more earnings), but still did well to make the minimums and pay rent. After establishing an emergency fund (getting fired from an associate job and not getting paid [had a a paycheck reversed when I left a gig and got stiffed after I left another] is very real), I would put every extra dollar towards my loans. Payments ranged from the minimum $1500-$5000. I have about ~$30k left and should be done next year. We did it by living well below our means, budgeting to a fault, and renting (no down payment tied up in a house). And burnout for paying off student loans is real. I'm so tired of paying so much each month and really, really can't wait until they're gone so I can start keeping that money.

My advice would be to pay off as much as you can in the beginning. Even if it's just an extra $100 here and there. Pay off as much as you can as quick as you can. Your expenses will only increase as time goes on. You will outgrow the tiny apartment. Rent'll go up or you'll buy a house and need a down payment. That old car you own will eventually die. A new one (even just an average run of the mill Honda) will cost $500/month to own for 5 years. That nice Audi/Mercedes/BMW is more like $1200+. Want kids? Daycare is $1200 for each kid, plus diapers/toys/clothes/baby stuff.

Rainee has some good advice about owning vs. associating. However, owning doesn't seem to be the safe bet it used to be. I know some docs struggling to make ends meet in a saturated market. Local DSOs gobble up any decent practices at 125%-150% of asking value. Most of the ones that hit the brokers to be advertised for sale are inflated for the value. And keep in mind, you need to qualify for the loan which is difficult for some of the bigger loan amounts and certain production reports.
 
can any practicing dentist elaborate about how you have been managing these big student loans?
I feel like the replies are missing the main points of this post

2 ways to manage the student loans (you can approach either or both options)
1. Be frugal, save your money towards loan repayment
2. Make more money to pay towards loan repayment

When you first start out, don't let these numbers look daunting. You're going from non-doctor/student income (if any) to doctor income. Option 1 works, but it's a futile approach based on associate income. Option 2 is more important than option 1. This doesn't mean that you cannot do option 1 and 2 simultaneously. Even if I had been frugal with an associate income of 360k+, it still wouldn't have been enough to build a good retirement. Unfortunately, associate income does have its limitations, so therefore, you have to look at ownership as your quick escape from your transitional poverty.

For those that are willing to do what it takes, I say borrow as much as you can with student loans (in excess), hunt good bargains for dental equipment in dental school, keep them for your future practice or resell on ebay, when you get out, find the highest paying job anywhere in the US, save as much money as you can, while paying as little as possible on student loans and housing, live frugally at this stage of life, then when you save about 100k at least, start construction on a cheap, new office. Keep working at your current practice and ramp it up until you're making more as an owner. Done! I make it sound easier, it doesn't happen all at once, but time flies. It was my formula, and it's the formula that makes the most sense. Buying a practice and paying into it for many years just sounds like another layer of unnecessary expense. Once you have your practice going, you don't have to worry about money as much. Student loans can be paid within a year once you have your practice ramped up. Mass marketing is the key to extreme practice growth. Only thing that sucks... you are recognizable in public.

If you have no desire for practice ownership, then finding the highest paying associateship is the next best thing. Either medicaid mill or denture mills would be your best bet, but burnout is real for associates, especially for the relatively meager compensation (compared to your production). If you are unable to move to the highest paying associateship, then you are stuck within your region's income limitations and you just have to exercise extreme frugality and/or work multiple jobs, 6-7 days a week. For those that think practice ownership is more stressful, I'd say it's the opposite. Being an associate is worse. I don't like being told what to do nor listening to what the "boss" says. Thankfully, I got paid as an IC, so I was able to deduct my startup expenses and tell them no when they wanted to have unpaid meetings. I just tell them, I'm not showing up unless I'm getting paid. Also, you have to work their hours, not your hours. That's the great thing about being an owner... you work when you want to. There's something liberating about setting your own hours. I don't want to wake up early, so I start at noon, so can you (if that's your cup of tea).

As an owner, my main problem is just being bored. I'm thinking of taking an apico course just to spice things up... seems natural in the progression of tooth lifespan: fill > rct/bu/crown/CL > apico > ext + implant >>>explant/implant/dentures . Being able to provide any of the needed services during that spectrum (except dentures) seems to be the natural progression of being a "single tooth specialist".
 
A solution would be to 1) move to a less saturated area for your target demographics, 2) start up instead of buying, or 3) search for an undervalued practice on the market by a retiring low producing doc that you can revamp quickly. If moving into an area with less competition is not an option, then joining the DSO and moving up the corporate ladder in spirit of "if you can't beat 'em, then join 'em" may be a tenable recourse.

1) Up and moving isn't always an option. I'm in an a reasonable sized Metro area that is semi-saturated and found a long-term, very good-paying associateship. There is a very unsaturated area close-ish. Doctors in the area aren't paying enough to make a 1+ hour drive reasonable for low collections. And not every rural area is a FFS utopia. I also have friends who bought an amazing FFS practice in a semi-rural, up and coming area. Corps caught wind and moved in. As did several start-ups.

2) Start-ups in a saturated or semi-saturated area can be financial suicide, if you aren't careful. It takes a long time to build-up a patient base and start paying yourself a salary. Banks are also leery of giving huge loans for a start-up to someone with $500k in student loan debt. They usually want a proven track record of collections.

3) I guess I wasn't super-clear in my previous post. In my area, unless you approach a doctor directly or know them, these practices literally do not come to market. If a doctor calls a broker, the broker will put them in touch with a corp first. If the corps want to buy it, they will before it even hits the market and they will buy it for well the asking price. If a single doctor goes to buy it, they may end up paying 125%-150% of asking. The practices that make it to the ads in my area are the ones that local corps already passed on because they didn't feel they could make money on. There's a lot of talk on DentalTown about retiring docs going with whomever will pay the most money for their practice (corp or single doctor). There aren't many who will take less money to sell it to a young doctor.

We live in interesting times.
 
I can't help but wonder if any patients will come to the new, young dentist who just graduate? I know I personally don't want to be treated by a dentist or a physician who is a fresh grad.
 
I can't help but wonder if any patients will come to the new, young dentist who just graduate? I know I personally don't want to be treated by a dentist or a physician who is a fresh grad.

The general population doesn't know much better. In many patient's minds, newer is better. You want to market yourself as that high tech, young professional dentist that doesn't have an office that looks or smells like from 1974.

Edit: A lot of these old offices smell like old mold and/or eugenol. Another reason not to buy an old office.

Edit pt2: You just gave me a good idea on a marketing campaign. Thanks!
 
There isn’t just one way or the highway route of ownership. Lyft has their IPO tommorow. It starts at 70$ a share and can balloon up to 500$ a share in 5 years. Who knows. It can also go down like Snapchat and GoPro to 5$ a share losing a majority of investment.

You can also buy VISA or and index fund that has slowly gained over time. It may not double or triple in value but it holds steady, outpaced the sp500 and has dividends. It could also sink like GE and become an extinct business.

Everyone’s risk tolerance is different. I’ve done plenty fine buying an old 1970s “smelly” “outdated” practice- like buying visa. And ya man has done fine doing a startup like investing in a ipo.

What we can all agree on is associating is a complete waste of time and money and won’t get you anywhere. So go be an owner and make your destiny!
 
That's definitely true, everyone's risk tolerance is different and there's different approaches. I was trying to highlight that if there's a perceived con to you (such as being young), you can always turn that around to a positive!

Although this commercial (and the ones that came along with this) were hated by a lot of dentists, I thought it was pretty smart:



I thought it was a good way to evoke people's feelings about "old offices". I had a TV commercial that pointed out medicaid mills trying to take on ppo/ffs patients.
 
Every office decor and age of dentist is different for different areas. I personally value quality personal interaction over high tech, fancy practices. It starts with the receptionist. No fancy, stupid scripted slogan's either ...like. "Goodmorning .... It's a GREAT day here at Dr. DrillnBill's practice". I've walked into professional practices where everything is top notch, high end ..... and then when I meet and talk to the doctor ... I'm like disappointed. Let down. Not everytime. The doctor's personality should match the general theme of the office. Call me old fashion, but I like a CLEAN, modern, simple office. I don't need no stinkin latte machine, but I also do not want to see an old, dusty TV sitting in the corner of the reception area.
Cater to lower income. Office should be clean, comfortable and not overly audacious.
Cater to middle income. Office should be clean, comfortable, and appeal to middle income people.
Cater to wealthy ..... well .... have an office that caters to snobby patients and good luck. I see these in N. Scottsdale all the time. Come in and get spa treatment at the same time as you get dental work. Have a glass of champaign. No thanks.

As for age of dentist. Well .... youth is great, but experience is lacking. I also do not want some old geezer (late 60's, 70's) working on me. Maybe a nice young attractive female dentist ...... whoops .... sexist comment. I'll stop now.

Patients want relationships with their service and health providers. Well ... reverse that. Prior generations wanted social interaction. Maybe the current generation just wants services at the touch of a button.
 
Top