Talk to me like I'm 5

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GCB80

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How exactly do RVUs work? I've read about them and still don't quite understand.

Also why do people say you're capped at saving 18K per year for retirement? You can save as much as you want on your own, right?
 
How exactly do RVUs work? I've read about them and still don't quite understand.

Also why do people say you're capped at saving 18K per year for retirement? You can save as much as you want on your own, right?

I'm waiting for the 5 y/o explanation for RVUs, too.

About the $18k, that's the maximum you can put in pretax to your employer's retirement plan (401k/403b type of accounts). You can save more, but it's post tax unless you've over 50 in which case the pretax maximum increases a bit.
 
I'm not sure I can give you the 5-year old answer, but I can give you the health policy wonk answer.

Background: up until the early 1990s medicaid and medicare paid wildly different rates for different procedures - and also different rates to different physicians for the same procedures. As the number or procedures and tasks physicians performed increased, and the population covered by medicare expanded, the government became interest in standardizing the amount paid and reducing healthcare costs. Before this medicare would pay would they regarded as UCR (usual, customary, and reasonable).

Development of RVUs and RBRVS: in 1985, Bill Hsaio, a professor of health economics at harvard, took on the task of trying to identify how much work each procedure covered by medicare actually involved. This was a painstaking task that took 3+ years, and this work led to procedures being assigned a score called the relative value unit. This could then be multiplied by a fixed amount to give the total compensation for the procedure. This number has been falling over time, and differs between medicare and private insurance. This number is called the annual conversion factor. It is currently $37.73 for medicare. This led to the development of the resource-based relative value scale that came up with the list of all RVUs covered by medicare.

Adoption and corruption by AMA: in 1992, CMS (center for medicare and medicaid services) formally adopted this. Curiously the AMA is responsible for developing the codes (called current procedural terminology) or CPT codes for all procedures. Even more bizarrely, they are also now responsible for assigned RVUs to these CPT codes. This is done by a 31 physician committee called the "ruck" or Relative Value Scale Update Committee (RUC). Historically most of members have been specialists like cardiologists, dermatologists, gastroenterologists, orthopods (can you see a pattern here) so the number of RVUs assigned to procedures in the specialties best represented on this committee are the best paid. Conversely, primary care and psychiatry has historically been poorly represented - though this is changing. Another criticism of the RVU scale is they have not been accurately updated to take into account that many procedures (like say a colonoscopy) that took alot of time in the past but can be done in minutes now and thus require less work, which is why GI docs etc are overpaid compared to cognitive specialties where the main codes for billing are for E&M codes. Although it is ultimately up to CMS to accept or reject the RUCs recommendation they historically have accepted >90% of them

Components of the RVU: There are three components of the total RVU (or tRVU).
1) There is the work RVU or wRVU (typically about 48% of the tRVU) - for time, technical skill, effort, judgement, stress etc
2) There is the practice expense RVU or peRVU (typically abour 47% of the tRVU) - basically operational costs, non-clinical personnel, office space etc
3) There is malpractice RVU or mRVU (typically about 4% of tRVU) - estimate of relative risk of procedure
In addition there is a slight adjustment for geographic practice cost (GPCI), for example you'd get paid a bit more if you lived in Seattle or San Francisco compared to somewhere in the midwest
so total RVU = (wRVU x wGPCI) + (peRVU x peGPCI) + (mRVU x mGPCI)
and total compensation = tRVU x conversion factor (CF)

except that in 2007 congress introduced a budget neutrality adjustment factor (BNF) to scale down costs on work RVUs so:
tRVU = wRVU x 0.8994 x wGPCI) + (peRVU x peGPCI) + (mRVU x mGPCI)

MACRA: to confuse things further, from 1997 medicare physician fees were curtailed by something called the sustainable growth rate or (SGR) which unless you've been living in a cave you should have heard of as a physician since the number one priority of the AMA until last year was to lobby to repeal this. And last year, it was repealed and replaced by Medicare Access and CHIP Reauthorization Act of 2015 (MACRA). This has another way of calculating the conversion factor which we wont get into here, but essentially they are trying to correct for misvalued codes (ie codes for which physicians are being overpaid because they dont accurately reflect work done)

Fee for service: RVUs are entrenched in the fee for service model of care. Although some changes are being made to the way physicians are paid to take into account "quality measures" (though it is arguable whether these metrics are really looking at quality in a meaningful way) ultimately the ACA leaves in place the fee for service model, which whatever way you look at is is only good for physicians, but leads to an expensive system where patients get poorer quality care but more of it (more investigations, treatments etc)
For further reading see:
http://medgroup.ucsf.edu/sites/medgroup.ucsf.edu/files/the_basics_of_rvus_and_rbrvs_0.pdf
https://www.sgim.org/File Library/SGIM/Communities/Advocacy/Advocacy 101/Do-RVUs-Undervalue-Primary-Care---Primer-on-the-RUC-3-14-2014.pdf
 
RVUs (Relative Value Unit) as a 5 y/o ...

Each patient encounter is worth x dollars. It can be calculated by the dollar amount or using a system which is a surrogate for dollars. For example, 1 RVU is worth $10 in some places, in others, maybe $20. This is negotiable.

Each time you complete a superbill, you put a billing level on it (99213 or 99204, etc); This billing level is converted to an RVU amount.

The rest is math....
 
I'm waiting for the 5 y/o explanation for RVUs, too.

About the $18k, that's the maximum you can put in pretax to your employer's retirement plan (401k/403b type of accounts). You can save more, but it's post tax unless you've over 50 in which case the pretax maximum increases a bit.
Specifically, $18k is the max for elective deferrals (i.e., your own contributions.) Employer matching can bring the total to over $18k. Also, the $18k limit is for employer-sponsored 401(k)/403(b) plans, the kind you have if you're an employee. If you're self-employed (e.g., an independent contractor, doing locums, solo practitioner, partner in a private practice) you can do a solo 401(k), for which the contribution limit is about 20% of your income (supposed to be 25%, but you have to deduct half the payroll tax plus the contribution itself) plus $18k. Also, in addition to a 401(k)/403(b), you can take out an IRA, which has a contribution limit of $5500. (Again, that's if you're an employee; if you're self-employed you can do a SEP-IRA, which has a maximum contribution of about 20%, or $53k.)

But yes, OP, the caps are only on tax-deferred retirement accounts. If you manage to make a million a year, you're free to sock $500k away in investment accounts. It just won't be tax-deferred.
 
Specifically, $18k is the max for elective deferrals (i.e., your own contributions.) Employer matching can bring the total to over $18k. Also, the $18k limit is for employer-sponsored 401(k)/403(b) plans, the kind you have if you're an employee. If you're self-employed (e.g., an independent contractor, doing locums, solo practitioner, partner in a private practice) you can do a solo 401(k), for which the contribution limit is about 20% of your income (supposed to be 25%, but you have to deduct half the payroll tax plus the contribution itself) plus $18k. Also, in addition to a 401(k)/403(b), you can take out an IRA, which has a contribution limit of $5500. (Again, that's if you're an employee; if you're self-employed you can do a SEP-IRA, which has a maximum contribution of about 20%, or $53k.)

But yes, OP, the caps are only on tax-deferred retirement accounts. If you manage to make a million a year, you're free to sock $500k away in investment accounts. It just won't be tax-deferred.

I think we make too much money to contribute to an IRA pretax unless we don't have an employer sponsored plan. We also make too much money for traditional Roth IRAs, but there's this complicated Roth IRA conversation that people talk about in the finance forum here. I've yet to have a job where I qualify for matching -- all my employers so far have just matched after the first year of employment and not much after that (with practically none of it vesting for a long time). Maybe I'll improve this with my next job.
 
RVUs are numbers that the hospital uses to tell them how much work mommy or daddy do. These turn into money at the bank and they put it in our debit card so we can buy food and clothes for you. It all works by magic!
"Other mommies and daddies who cut things and put tubes into people's private places get bigger numbers, because the hospital thinks that they work harder than we do--but daddy doesn't want to talk about that right now...yes, honey, that's scotch in daddy's glass...no, you can't have a taste..."
 
I think we make too much money to contribute to an IRA pretax unless we don't have an employer sponsored plan. We also make too much money for traditional Roth IRAs, but there's this complicated Roth IRA conversation that people talk about in the finance forum here. I've yet to have a job where I qualify for matching -- all my employers so far have just matched after the first year of employment and not much after that (with practically none of it vesting for a long time). Maybe I'll improve this with my next job.
Wow--either I forgot that there were tax deduction limits for IRAs based on income, or I never knew it. I never made that much money until the last year, and I've been self-employed, so I did a SEP-IRA. Still, there is the "backdoor Roth" conversion you mentioned. I don't think it's that complicated, though I haven't tried to do it yet. My understanding is that you take out a traditional IRA then just immediately (or before the end of the tax year) convert it to a Roth IRA. Your contribution is not tax-deductable, but the advantage is that you now have a Roth IRA, so the withdrawals from it you make in retirement will not be taxed. Some people think that's less than ideal, because you supposedly will have a lower income (and thus be in a lower tax bracket) in retirement than you did when you made the contribution, so you're paying the taxes when you're subject to a higher tax rate. It's still better that just putting it in a private brokerage account, though, when the money will be taxed both when you put it in and when you take it out.

But I digress... we're supposed to be talking to the OP like he's 5!
 
I've yet to have a job where I qualify for matching -- all my employers so far have just matched after the first year of employment and not much after that (with practically none of it vesting for a long time). Maybe I'll improve this with my next job.

Ouch, you've got to go somewhere that gets you at least 3% (last I heard the average match was just under 3), but ideally 5 or above. Lots of money right there.
 
If you are self-employed, and earnings are stable, in addition to the personal and corporate 401k, start a deferred benefit plan which is an old school type pension fund. Catch is that you must contribute to it for at least 5 years if not longer or risk an audit.
 
I think we make too much money to contribute to an IRA pretax unless we don't have an employer sponsored plan. We also make too much money for traditional Roth IRAs, but there's this complicated Roth IRA conversation that people talk about in the finance forum here. I've yet to have a job where I qualify for matching -- all my employers so far have just matched after the first year of employment and not much after that (with practically none of it vesting for a long time). Maybe I'll improve this with my next job.
I was disappointed when I read the fine print on the 401(k) plan at my new job. Turns out they don't start matching until 1 year in, and their contributions don't become fully vested until 3 years in. I hate big bureaucratic organizations in general, and thus didn't like my non-medical corporate job any more, but at least they matched from the start and there was no vesting period. I guess based on that experience, I always assumed all 401(k) plans worked that way. But it sounds like with hospital systems, delayed matching/vesting is more common.
 
Roth is also good because you only pay tax on the amount you contribute. Any gains are tax free. Traditional IRA you pay taxes on both contributions and gains when you withdraw in retirement.
 
Roth is also good because you only pay tax on the amount you contribute. Any gains are tax free. Traditional IRA you pay taxes on both contributions and gains when you withdraw in retirement.

You got it half right. On a traditional IRA, you do not pay taxes on the front end, only upon withdrawal.
 
Read the final sentence in its entirety, I said you pay taxes when you withdraw money in retirement (the money withdrawn is a combination of contributions plus gains). I never said you pay tax when you contribute.
 
How exactly do RVUs work? I've read about them and still don't quite understand.

Also why do people say you're capped at saving 18K per year for retirement? You can save as much as you want on your own, right?


18k is limit for individual contribution, and 53k is limit of (employee + employer contribution). 457 plans are separate from this.
Backdoor Roth IRAs are available to all physicians (employed or self employed or partner.
There is a stealth IRA (i.e. HSA account available as well.
Doing employed + 1099 work opens the most room for deferred space.

Read these posts on whitecoatinvestor for more info:
http://whitecoatinvestor.com/tag/401k/
 
Read the final sentence in its entirety, I said you pay taxes when you withdraw money in retirement (the money withdrawn is a combination of contributions plus gains). I never said you pay tax when you contribute.
OK, so we were reading "Traditional IRA you pay taxes on both (contributions) and (gains when you withdraw in retirement)," but what you really meant was "Traditional IRA you pay taxes on both (contributions and gains) when you withdraw in retirement."

But the fact remains that a Roth IRA is financially advantageous only if you were in a lower tax bracket when you made the contribution than you will be when you take a distribution. That is why residents are advised to max out a Roth IRA in residency/fellowship: most of us will have a higher retirement income than our incomes while in training. If your tax rate in retirement is equal or lower to your tax rate when you made the contribution, a Roth IRA offers no benefit.
 
I'm waiting for the 5 y/o explanation for RVUs, too.

About the $18k, that's the maximum you can put in pretax to your employer's retirement plan (401k/403b type of accounts). You can save more, but it's post tax unless you've over 50 in which case the pretax maximum increases a bit.
Or well over 50k if you're self employed and do a SEP.
 
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