TBL- the good, bad, ugly

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MerYangBey

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Hello,
I would love to hear honest opinions about TBL. With the knowlege that you have now would you choose a school that incorporates a lot of TBL/peer learning or one with a more traditional lecture curriculum ? Thanks!
 
Hello,
I would love to hear honest opinions about TBL. With the knowlege that you have now would you choose a school that incorporates a lot of TBL/peer learning or one with a more traditional lecture curriculum ? Thanks!

Are you talking about TBL or PBL?

You'd have to be asking pretty specific questions to have gotten much information on the former before matriculating to the school. Regarding TBL, it sucks. If you have an option and all else being equal, I say avoid it as much as possible. Nobody takes it seriously and it's usually a waste of time.

Regarding PBL, I'm a big fan but it depends on how your school does it. IMO, for it to be worthwhile it needs to be a fairly significant portion of your learning experience (2-3 sessions/wk; 6-11 hrs/wk). That way, the stakes are there so people take it seriously and you have the time dedicated to it to actually get a lot of worthwhile learning issues done and talk through complicated topics in detail to learn the pathophysiology, etc. My school has a relatively "pure" PBL curriculum and I thought it was great. At the end of the day I learned everything I needed for step 1 and had a lot of fun doing it.

Some schools are sort of "token PBL" where they have one session or less per week of PBL. I know people in these sorts of curricula and they hate it. It sucks and is a waste of time like TBL is.
 
Haha I saw this on a thread from a couple years ago! I wanted to see if people still thought it was that bad. :laugh:
To be fair, I'm not at a school with TBL. We do traditional (1st year basic sciences, 2nd year systems pathology and pharmacology) and I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
we had all TBL and almost no lectures. was terrible and a huge waste of my time.

Student A: but this concept is vague and I don't seem to understand it.

PBL leader: students, can you help him?

Students B,C: uhmmmm i think it's like this? I was slightly confused as well.

PBL leader: it could be, can any other students confirm?

waste of my time.
 
we had all TBL and almost no lectures. was terrible and a huge waste of my time.

Student A: but this concept is vague and I don't seem to understand it.

PBL leader: students, can you help him?

Students B,C: uhmmmm i think it's like this? I was slightly confused as well.

PBL leader: it could be, can any other students confirm?

waste of my time.
That sucks. We had a regular lecture schedule and one team case a week. During second year, we have regular lecture schedules and two cases a week.

Do you guys at least get recorded lectures to watch?
 
That sucks. We had a regular lecture schedule and one team case a week. During second year, we have regular lecture schedules and two cases a week.

Do you guys at least get recorded lectures to watch?

We rarely had any lectures. However, for cardio, we had one 2-3 hour lecture for every case.

M1 and M2 was an open up your textbook and come back to us in a couple of days CBL free for all.
 
PBL is different than TBL.

PBL will be pretty much teaching yourself for two years. You might as well burn 100k in your backyard. TBL will just be scheduled group "things" in between lectures. You'll have normal lectures then maybe a TBL once a week or less, but the actual TBL session is most likely similar to what a PBL is. You get tested over some content related to the lectures, but is clinically focused. Then you have discussion questions with the class while everybody actually just talks about how much time they're wasting.
 
PBL is different than TBL.

PBL will be pretty much teaching yourself for two years. You might as well burn 100k in your backyard. TBL will just be scheduled group "things" in between lectures. You'll have normal lectures then maybe a TBL once a week or less, but the actual TBL session is most likely similar to what a PBL is. You get tested over some content related to the lectures, but is clinically focused. Then you have discussion questions with the class while everybody actually just talks about how much time they're wasting.
This is not true regarding PBL. At most places, PBL still includes substantial lecture time (far more lecture time than PBL time), just less than a traditional format. It also usually costs the school more to operate than a traditional curriculum.

My school had ~9hrs PBL/wk + lecture. At the end of second year, I took an nbme before doing any dedicated studying for step and got somewhere in the 240s and did very well on the actual test. I don't think I'm just that good at teaching myself all of the preclinical material. I'm confident that the curriculum made sure we knew what we needed to know.
 
I think my classmates are awesome, smart, funny and generally great people. I, however, am thrilled that I don't have to learn from them because that's not why I'm here.

We have some small group-ish stuff that's fine, but I'm glad that we're mostly just taught by some pretty awesome faculty.
 
We use a mixed TBL/traditional curriculum and it works extremely well. Of course, this is largely dependent upon your group, and we had an awesome group.
I'm a fan of mixed tbl/traditional as well
 
(The following is opinion.)

TBL is a waste of time. The point of the first two years of medical school is to learn basic science/medicine for Step 1. TBL is not an efficient use of time when you have to learn a vast amount of information. The reason is simple. TBL is designed to question the learner with vague questions that have multiple answers. This is great for real life problems, however the first two years of medical school is not about real life problems. When the message is there are more than one answer to a problem, it leaves the learner without a sound fact to learn. At the stage of MS1/MS2, it is all about learning facts to apply to Step 1 and forming a basic understanding of medicine.
 
Our school is completely TBL/PBL. We don't have any lectures. I would be miserable in a lecture or listening to recordings all day. This stuff isn't complicated so you don't need someone to teach it to you. It's just reading and memorization.
 
I think the variety of opinions presented here point to the underlying truth that execution is everything. Done well, it can be very valuable and help integrate concepts in a way that's very beneficial for step one and beyond. Done badly, well, it's painful.

I think this is definitely a good question for applicants to pose to current students as faculty will invariably say it's wonderful. We are definitely living in an age where the lecture is a terribly outdated and inefficient modality; much easier to pre record all of them and use class time for more integration and application. I think the key thing I would look for personally with tbl is the level of faculty involvement, with more involvement a good thing.
 
We have a little bit of PBL interspersed with a mostly "traditional" curriculum. Some people love it, but I mostly find myself thinking "wow I could've learned all this stuff in 1/4 of the time if I would've just read about it instead." Your mileage may vary.
 
I would absolutely prefer a traditional curriculum over TBL/peer learning.

Our school executed TBLs/peer learning stuff really badly, most of it was a waste of time and felt like a gimmick.
 
TBL at its best is a fun game where you do learn but in an inefficient manner. At its worst it is a complete waste of time
 
TBL is a very cost-effective treatment option for introverts like myself.

If TBL does not cure you, your social illness is irreversible!

For learning? It's a partial agonist/partial antagonist.
 
Our school is completely TBL/PBL. We don't have any lectures. I would be miserable in a lecture or listening to recordings all day. This stuff isn't complicated so you don't need someone to teach it to you. It's just reading and memorization.

Then why waste time with tbl? If what you say is true then you should just be reading/memorizing.

Also I would definitely NOT attend your school.
 
Then why waste time with tbl? If what you say is true then you should just be reading/memorizing.

Also I would definitely NOT attend your school.
...the bolding and the underline eliminate any little probability that exists in attending that school.

Now, your sentence is completely complete!👍
 
I don't get the resistance to learning problem solving skills. Medicine is not just regurgitating endless facts out of a textbook.

We have a mix of small group (PBL, TBL, I'm not sure. People seem to be using them interchangeably in this thread) and lecture. We get good feedback when students do electives elsewhere because we learn to think about cases right from the beginning.

It works, I think
 
I don't get the resistance to learning problem solving skills. Medicine is not just regurgitating endless facts out of a textbook.

We have a mix of small group (PBL, TBL, I'm not sure. People seem to be using them interchangeably in this thread) and lecture. We get good feedback when students do electives elsewhere because we learn to think about cases right from the beginning.

It works, I think
I don't have an issue with working through problems. My issue is when I'm trying to solve them in a group and the guy next to me didn't prepare well enough, or somebody else can't understand the reasoning involved. It slows me down and wastes my time.

I understand that working in a team is essential in practicing medicine, but there is plenty of time during 3rd and 4th year for that.
 
Then why waste time with tbl? If what you say is true then you should just be reading/memorizing.

Also I would definitely NOT attend your school.
Because learning the information on your own, and then learning to apply that information to a clinical case with faculty who have treated those cases is much more effective than having someone talk at you for hours a day. Just providing the perspective of someone who's school actually does PBL/TBL right. It can be very effective if the school commits to the practice.
 
Moving to pre-allo, as this thread is more pertinent to pre-meds choosing med schools.

Did not enjoy TBL and PBL, but I know some people did. Just depends on the person, but it was hard to find people who really enjoyed TBL. I'm really big on efficiency, and TBL seemed so inefficient to me. It would be 3 hours to go over a few concepts that I could read about in 30 minutes. And the only "team" part of it was bickering over which answer choice was right. PBL was better, but still inefficient IMO. I liked working through the cases with the group, but could have done without the short Wikipedia presentations. 😛

Since no one has actually defined PBL and TBL, for those who aren't familiar (details vary between schools, and some schools do it much better than others):

PBL - Problem Based Learning - small groups with a faculty member facilitator. You typically go through a clinical case, pick out "learning objectives" based on things you don't know or aren't familiar with, and each student gets assigned a topic to present at the next PBL meeting. Each person presents their little powerpoint and then you get to resolve the case and find out what the diagnosis is. Some people like it, some people don't. I thought it was a lot more tolerable than TBL....

TBL - Team Based Learning - still small groups, but it's like a game show and here it's done in a big auditorium with the whole class and just 1-2 facilitators. You're usually assigned some reading to do or the TBL is based on certain lectures. Each person takes an individual quiz. Then you get together with your group and take the same quiz as a group with a silly scratch off card. Then the facilitator goes through the quiz and you have these letters that you hold up (exactly like in the above video) to say what you picked. Then they go through cases or a lecture or something to followup.

Like I said, each school may have their own spin on these things. I've also heard the term CBL thrown around but I don't know what that is.
 
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Through my limited understanding of PBL is it safe to say it makes it easier in preparing for step 1? Those questions are asked in a clinical context the same way PBL is taught, right? Or am I completely off 😵?!?!
 
Because learning the information on your own, and then learning to apply that information to a clinical case with faculty who have treated those cases is much more effective than having someone talk at you for hours a day. Just providing the perspective of someone who's school actually does PBL/TBL right. It can be very effective if the school commits to the practice.

I disagree, it would be much more efficient to simply use that time to study. Even at it's best TBL is an inefficient use of time.
 
Through my limited understanding of PBL is it safe to say it makes it easier in preparing for step 1? Those questions are asked in a clinical context the same way PBL is taught, right? Or am I completely off 😵?!?!

It would be more efficient to use USMLERx or UWorld or BRS practice questions alongside your studying rather than the hours spent on PBL going through just a couple cases. It's good experience to start understanding how to work through cases, but you would be better prepared for Step 1 by doing Step 1-specific prep. Just my 2 cents.
 
Through my limited understanding of PBL is it safe to say it makes it easier in preparing for step 1? Those questions are asked in a clinical context the same way PBL is taught, right? Or am I completely off 😵?!?!
Sounds like a PBL-based school has you drinking their Kool-Aid.
 
I personally really like PBL, as it allows for the integration of the physiology and basic science into clinical scenarios. Learning how to think about tests and diagnoses that relate to the topic is really valuable IMO. But I also come from a small liberal arts college, so I'm used to group discussions -- that might make it feel more comfortable/valuable for me.
 
Basically, as @Ismet alluded to, PBL's will still help you learn the material. But, the problem with them is that it takes much longer to learn the same material and it is therefore lower yield than simply studying the relevant facts on your own.
 
Its probably all just a gambit to make it seem like students actually do something at the first two years of med school besides watching recorded lectures in their apartments.
 
Basically, as @Ismet alluded to, PBL's will still help you learn the material. But, the problem with them is that it takes much longer to learn the same material and it is therefore lower yield than simply studying the relevant facts on your own.

Yes. I want to reiterate that I did learn from PBL (and TBL, as I begrudgingly admit), but the total inefficiency really bothered me. I'm also one of the many who didn't go to lecture and podcasted at 2x speed, so mandatory lecture feels like it's crawling along at snail speed 😛 In contrast, many of my classmates went to every single lecture and that's how they learned best. Many people liked PBL. YMMV.
 
Yes. I want to reiterate that I did learn from PBL (and TBL, as I begrudgingly admit), but the total inefficiency really bothered me. I'm also one of the many who didn't go to lecture and podcasted at 2x speed, so mandatory lecture feels like it's crawling along at snail speed 😛 In contrast, many of my classmates went to every single lecture and that's how they learned best. Many people liked PBL. YMMV.
This exactly. The people that seem to enjoy PBL/TBL at my school are the same ones that attend lecture. If I can save 1.5-2 hours every day by watching lecture at 2x speed, I'm going to do that. But some people learn better by actually being in the classroom. Mandatory sessions feel to me like I'm wasting potential precious free time. Again, YMMV.
 
This exactly. The people that seem to enjoy PBL/TBL at my school are the same ones that attend lecture. If I can save 1.5-2 hours every day by watching lecture at 2x speed, I'm going to do that. But some people learn better by actually being in the classroom. Mandatory sessions feel to me like I'm wasting potential precious free time. Again, YMMV.

The worst part about 3rd year was the mandatory lectures. There was one rotation where we had 4 hours of lecture every Monday morning. :dead: I would hands down choose to be in clinic or surgery or ANYTHING even remotely productive and active over sitting in a lecture hall for 4 hours. But then I talk to some lecture-going classmates and they're thankful for the break from clinical duties. It's kind of unfortunate that it's hard to determine what kind of lecture vs no lecture person you are until you're in it and drinking from the fire hydrant.
 
Judging by the replies ITT, it seems PBL/TBL is best for talking through cases using learned concepts and not actually learning new concepts.

Anyone confirm?
 
I know I (like many people) learn well by talking to/teaching others, and always figured this must be the rationale behind PBL/TBL. Can anyone weigh in on that? Can it be helpful in that way?
 
Yea, and it's the PBL where your PBL facilitator usually isn't qualified to be a facilitator due to LECOM's high faculty turn over rate. Their PBL = assign each other readings from a bunch of textbooks while the facilitator is like "OKAY", then self-study what your group assigns you and do it again, and hope you got all the info for boards because the school doesn't provide you any support at all.

What on earth are you talking about? When I interviewed at LECOM there was so much discussion about the various supports in place to keep students on track I was starting to get sick of hearing it by the end of the day. Add that to the fact that LECOM gets great board scores and PBL is their most popular program, and I don't really know how you can argue it's "the worst."
 
Would anyone say PBL may come allot easier for students who have a very strong science background to begin with? Ive literally taken every science course I would be taking in the traditional lecture based pathway with the exception of embryo and micro, many of the most important ones at the grad level. I would just hate to sit through lectures of the same stuff ive already learned for two more years :arghh: I was accepted into the PBL pathway but apparently if I dont like it I can sub into the lecture pathway pretty easily so ill probably try it and see if it fits me.
 
What on earth are you talking about? When I interviewed at LECOM there was so much discussion about the various supports in place to keep students on track I was starting to get sick of hearing it by the end of the day. Add that to the fact that LECOM gets great board scores and PBL is their most popular program, and I don't really know how you can argue it's "the worst."
Of course the admissions people are going to sell their program as the best thing since sliced bread. That's part of their job.

"Here, drink this Kool-Aid."

In all seriousness, unfortunately it is tough to judge how well these programs will fit you until you are already in the thick of it.

Like I've already said, people usually love it or they hate it.
 
If you interviewed at seton hill, did you? You'd get a different picture especially if you interacted with a number of students. Most don't like it.

There's a huge difference between what schools say and how they are. You have to dig deeper than that to get the real deal. Perhaps it worked for you but it didn't from what I've seen. Not to mention the seriously draconian rules. The faculty also seemed very cold and unsupportive. It's basically a do it yourself. Read on this forum and do more digging, and you'll see my opinion is hardly unique.

Not to mention what they do for rotations (sites get dropped left and right cuz they don't pay rotation hospitals) and how they limit the rotations of those who do poorly.

There's a reason Lecoms are really cheap. You get what you pay for and at Lecom that isn't much.

LECOM is the closest DO school to my undergrad, so there are quite a few alumni from my school there. And several of the doctors I work with attended LECOM. With those points in mind, I understand the school quite well, and anytime LECOM comes up in discussion at the hospital, docs are quick to jump in with their 2 cents about the place. The main "tagline" I have for the school is that while they don't have much in the way of bells or whistles (which is what keeps the tuition affordable), the curriculum is sound and you'll be well set up for boards and residency. Also, I haven't talked to a single person from the school who doesn't like PBL or doesn't wish they could go back and choose PBL. The students themselves think that PBL is better than the lecture pathway and that the PBL students do better on boards. As for their "draconian" rules, I think referring to "no food or drinks in the lecture halls" and "business professional attire" as draconian is being a little mellow dramatic. There were things I didn't really like about the school, which is why I turned down my spot there, but I think you're attacking the wrong aspects. PBL is probably the strongest thing that LECOM has going for it.
 
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