Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
tell me you do not feel ashamed...
Started by oldstock
Get help with your application
Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.
Not ashamed. I go to a top tier school that I worked my ass off to get into. Did good enough on the PCAT and had a solid gpa.
Ashamed of what? I am angry at the way the future of our professions educational system has been managed, but there isn't really a single group to be angry at. ACPE doesn't have a mechanism for refusing accreditation based on need so you can't really fault them.
I also don't care what the DO and MD students think of our current job situation.
I also don't care what the DO and MD students think of our current job situation.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
What about you, do you feel ashamed?
I think it's funny how SDN changes people.
I am ashamed of the direction where pharmacy admission, education, and even the whole profession are heading in general, where it is becoming a butt joke in the eyes of other healthcare professions. I do not know about you but I have this feeling when I saw more and more people got accepted to pharmacy schools and even going on here and cheering on their being getting in with super low PCATs and GPAs. I am also ashamed of myself thinking that there is almost nothing I can do to stop this trend except I either go on or jump out.
The question now is who is going to take responsibility for this mess ?? of course nobody is LOL 🙂
Last edited:
I recommend jumping out and looking for a different career path. If the sight of less competitive applicants celebrating their successes despite the odds lowers your sense of self-worth then you should probably find another elitist group to join.
I know there will be posts like yours.
I am not an elitist. Tell me that 70's percentile or more on the PCAT is so hard to score. Or a GPA of 3.0's or more is too difficult to try for or obtain. I guess it is probably too hard for you.
I am not trying to offend anyone. I trying to tell you that I am really sad to see the standards for pharmacy admission going down like this. And nobody is responsible or wanna do or "can" do anything.
But if you got what I said above, you already got it. If you did not, you did not. Or go on and tweak my saying to something else so that acceptance to pharmacy schools with sub par GPAs and PCATs is a "glory" for you, please go ahead 🙂
Last edited:
I am ashamed of people like you entering this profession. Your thread is a troll intended to provoke others.
You haven't even matriculated and feel pharmacy already owes you something. It doesn't.
How were your PCAT scores? Your GPA? Are you attending a top tier school? If you can't proudly answer those questions, then you are part of the problem yourself and probably shouldn't be posting things like this.
How were your PCAT scores? Your GPA? Are you attending a top tier school? If you can't proudly answer those questions, then you are part of the problem yourself and probably shouldn't be posting things like this.
LOL 🙂
troll ?? provoke ?? for me to feel bad about the current state of pharmacy school admission ?? I know you have been sitting round and waiting forever for this opportunity to attack me... well enjoy dawg 🙂
where did I say pharmacy owes me anything ?? or are you trying to put words in my mouth ?? do I need to have already matriculated in a pharmacy school to feel bad for the current state of pharmacy admission in general ??
If you want to know: my PCAT score is in the upper 80's percentile (almost 90's but I don't want to list the specific number, 1st try walked in and took it cold, 2013) and my GPA is 3.70's. I did attend one of the top 20 universities in the country. I also am accepted to a top 15 school of pharmacy.
(But again if my GPA and PCAT were not good, you think I am posting these posts... lol... hint: check your head 🙂 )
I want to do something to stop this trend but realize that I can almost do nothing. Can I stop ACPE from accrediting new pharmacy schools or pharmacy schools from accepting subpar applicants ?? No. Can you ?? of course you can LOL 🙂
Last edited:
We're all just sitting here lying in wait to attack you. Enemies on all sides oldstock, what do you do?!
Also, maybe these schools should start forcing all new applicants to have bachelors degrees. I mean what good is a high GPA/PCAT if you can't commit to 4 years to earn a bachelors?
Last edited:
This is exactly what I was advocating in my poll a while back. Yet, some people still think 4 years for a bachelor's is just too much of a burden for someone who wants to pursue pharmacy... 🙄
you know what you do... but you can kill me too I do not care now... I already said whatever I wanted to say 🙂
well, the more important point that we have to do something to reduce the increasing number of schools opening up every year. You can require a bachelor degree but if there are 300 pharmacy schools out there trying to fill their seats, what do you think will happen ??
Last edited:
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
How many threads are you going to start linking to that post?
medical schools are teaching Biochem too. I am guessing that they are too silly 🙂
let me ask you this: you honestly do not feel ashamed when people with sub par academic performance like 2s GPA or 20s percentile PCAT get accepted to pharmacy schools and in turn will be working along side with you ?? you are honestly proud that people of other health professions think we are a joke because the low admission standards ?? I guess you are not ashamed at all as you are basically saying here that GPA and PCAT are useless in pharmacy admission. So wat 2s GPA or 20s percentile PCAT to you ?? No problem. Well I am waiting to hear from you what kind of metrics you would use if you are adcom at some pharmacy school 🙂
And are you honestly proud when future pharmacy jobs prospect is being threatened and down and down and down all because new schools keep popping up and making money and taking advantage of the free labor on the back of the students and we cannot do jack to stop them ?? I guess you are probably because you think you are well set on your career...
I do have plan B and C and will execute in time. I just do not want to tell you what I am planning to do here on a public forum. Your opinion here that you are telling me to "adjust" my attitude or "get out" is just your opinion. I do not have to listen to you as you do not have to listen to me. But absolutely I would get out of your pharmacy stat if you are the boss there.
Again I do have the right to my opinion and the right to speak out what I see or think when people like you are either not brave enough to speak out or refusing to see the reality or not seeing it at all. What I do here is taking the first step, i.e. seeing the reality. Instead of being angry at me, you could use all that energy to look at the facts again and try to make a positive change for the pharmacy profession. Or go to the pharmacy forum and tell that to your pharmacy colleagues and see what they say. I do post a similar thread there 🙂
Last edited:
Stop complaining. You aren't even a student so you are choosing to enter the profession in spite of all this bad information. If it all goes wrong for you there will be no one to blame but yourself. Why are you going into pharmacy anyways? Don't have any other options?
(deleted the original response.)
EDIT: reading your post again, I understand that you might mean that why I choose to go in pharmacy when it is going south like this and if I have any other option ??
My parents, brothers and sisters are either medical doctors or pharmacists (many of my relatives are nurses and PAs). So I am pursuing a career in healthcare field because I am truly inspired by my parents.
I already have a career and have been doing well, just that it is nothing related to healthcare. I still am inspired and wanting to pursue a career in healthcare. So here I am and do have some other options aside from going into pharmacy 🙂
(sorry for the original sarcastic response as I was tired...)
Last edited:
I cannot control the admission standards at other schools of pharmacy. I graduated from a good pharmacy school and am on my way to developing my career as I desire it to be, so current standards at schools which I am not associated hardly comes close on my list of things to worry about. I did witness students who were waitlisted at my school later graduate Rho Chi and get accepted to top residency programs. These people might have a 2.7-2.8 overall GPA, but usually 70s on the PCAT. I keep my mouth shut when people talk about their low GPA's and Scores because I know that there is nothing I can say that would be nice and I like not being banned from the forum. GPA and PCAT are not useless, they differentiate students one from another, but it is the business of the school what kind of students they want in their program. I would be interested to know what the graduation rate, NAPLEX pass rate, and residency/job placement rate of these schools will be after admitting these students.
As a profession, our only option in the realm of reducing the current pharmacy schools is to greatly increase the accreditation standards. Medicine has managed to hold off the explosion of new schools by requiring that new schools secure new residency positions before they can be accredited. As this can be really difficult, then that has limited the number of new schools opening. Existing schools already have a difficult time when standards are changed and are reluctant to encourage ACPE to make this drastic step.
Job prospects are being affected differently based on the area. Community jobs are greatly affected by the increase in graduates, and while I respect my community colleagues and am grateful for taking care of my patients at home, I don't think our current retail model is sustainable for the long term. I believe our profession will change drastically in the next 20 years, and there might be a lot of Pharm.D's working in unrelated jobs. I truly believe that residencies (but Ambulatory Care, not "community") and board certification will be much more important in the future than they are today. If these new tier schools are able to produce residency ready students that will someday pass board certification out of undergraduates with a 2.5GPA and a 25% on their PCAT, then I need to be studying their teaching methods. If not, then they will eventually fail for lack of success.
You are well entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree which is what we are doing here. I am not angry with you, a disagreement on the internet is hardly worth my anger. It is still my opinion that a pre-pharmacy student who has only been just accepted has no business being ashamed of a profession of which they are not yet apart.
BTW: I do believe that it is silly that Medical schools are teaching Biochem. However, I could care even less about what they do. The difference is that medical schools have long held that the general education received in a degree is less important that the concepts, knowledge, and skills the earning of a degree will teach you. That is why the pre-meds often have non science majors while pre-pharms often have heavily related majors.
Also, regarding your attitude, the smiley faces don't really help you to not come off as negative and defensive. I also do not believe that any of our discussions has been reflective of how I might be as a manager of employees.
I have to chuckle when I am reading your response here. First off, according to you teaching Biochem in med schools or pharmacy schools is silly. Do you know that there are so many levels of Biochem that are offered out there in the whole wild world ?? But I guess it would be ok to you if they are teaching Genetics or Quant Aanal Chem ?? lol 🙂
According to you, my being sad/ashamed and comments on the low standards of pharmacy admission is not "nice" and it is ground for being banned from the forum. Well, then many in the pharmacy and pre-med/med forums will probably banned from SDN if you had your way.
Also according to you, I have no business to say anything about pharmacy for just being accepted to pharmacy school, a life long path that I am about to commit all my effort, time and money in. Yet I do not see you say anything about the pre-pharm students that are part of the cheering crowd. So only cheering is being allowed, again if you had your way.
Better yet, you are saying here that you are already well set on your career and would not care less about the current pharmacy admission standards or about retail pharmacy where the most pharmacists or new pharmacy graduates are or will be working. So why commenting at all ??
And I have checked on the other thread, I do not see you say anything like this here on that one, calling to ban me or saying that I have no business commenting on pharmacy, or that teaching Biochem in pharmacy schools or med schools is silly, or that you would not give a red cent about the current low admission standards or how retail pharmacy is going to die and the way of the future is Ambulatory care and residencies, or how many PharmD's are going to work unrelated jobs in the future... hmmm...
And for your calling me defensive and negative, I was reflecting on the current state of pharmacy admission and pharmacy profession as a whole. Probably you see the current state of pharmacy as a whole as a red rose but not me and many others. I am not attacking anyone but being "attacked" here, so it is my fault to be defensive ??
For your disclaimer at the end that your posts and comments here are not reflective of who you would be as a boss in real life, I have to commend you for coming up with a great way to discharge all the responsibility. It is the freaking internet anyway 🙂 But according to many of your posts above, nobody is responsible for anything these days so why should you ?? Or you would have split personality, one is for the world wide web and the other, probably very "nice", for your real work place, I would absolutely have no idea.
For the record, I am not saying that you are responsible for the admission standards for any pharmacy school or wish that you were . If you were, then there would be no metrics to be used for pharmacy admission anymore and everyone would get in and let us all wait to see after graduation to check on graduation rate, NAPLEX pass rate, and job/residency placement rate and wait to see what school is going to fail out. Something that really needs to try out for, doesn't it ?? Dang let's scrape all admission interviews, PCAT, PharmCAS, etc. I could have saved a ton this application cycle LOL
🤣🤣
Last edited:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
- Mark Twain
- Mark Twain
Seriously, I don't know why you'd bother with pharmacy with this attitude...especially at your age. If you're already convinced it's a raw deal, what's the point? Plans B, C or D must be better, I'd think.
Pharmacist: Guys, pharmacy is too saturated, go dentistry.
Dentist: Guys, dentistry is saturated, go medicine
Physician: Medicine is too saturated and our scope of practice is shrinking, go pharmacy.
Nurse: We rule the hospital.
Dentist: Guys, dentistry is saturated, go medicine
Physician: Medicine is too saturated and our scope of practice is shrinking, go pharmacy.
Nurse: We rule the hospital.
Truth!
Ha just the hospital? Try all of healthcare... I really hate that they outnumber every other health profession substantially. Nurses do whatever they want. I'm thinking they eventually want to push the others totally out of the picture all together...
Funny thing is, if you check out nursing messaging boards, many of them are worried, too. I don't think nurses really have it better, they just exist in such large numbers that it gives them some extra strength.
I agree with you in many ways. About 6-7 years ago, Pharmacy was a desirable profession because there weren't too many people. Now, the standards have dropped precipitously, and that is sad. I think belonging to a profession with high standards is important. Pharmacy is only kicking itself in the rear by diluting the quality of its members.
The requirement of a bachelor’s degree upon matriculation will do more than gauge the preparedness of students for pharmacy school. It will force students to weigh their options on whether to pursue pharmacy or another healthcare field. Countless students gunned for pharmacy because it’s “the quickest route to $100k salary.” By doing 2 years of pre-reqs and 3-4 years of pharmacy school, these students picked pharmacy primarily because it’s the quickest path. Will they still go for pharmacy if a bachelor’s degree is required? Some may, but given the fact that many are looking for the “shortest route,” it will undoubtedly force them to ponder the question of whether it’s “worth it” to them – they might even opt for a different health profession or pursue something else altogether. It’s no panacea, but it’s a logical step in the right direction. Furthermore, the 4 years that students spend getting their bachelor’s degree regardless of the major, will do more than gauge their preparedness. Within that time they will get the opportunity experience college life, find their passions, and learn invaluable lessons that will make them better individuals and hopefully, better pharmacists. In short, the benefits are certainly there for both the student and the profession.
As for biochemistry as a graduate level course, I’d like to point out that the scope and emphasis are quite different than at the undergraduate level. When I took biochem during my undergrad, it’s much more general (but no less detailed) and included plants as well as animal biochemistry. In pharmacy school, however, the emphasis is solely on human biochemistry with the incorporation of drug mechanisms. The title of the course might be similar and the materials might overlap, but the focus and emphasis are anything but the same. Since the course is foundational for further understanding of the inner workings of drugs, it's not such a bad idea to have a good emphasis driven “review.”
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I know we have disagreement on this matter but I hope you can be still reasonable. You have to see that the supply side in pharmacy is way more than demand. Not only admission standards are going down, but everything else is too in pharmacy. Again, we need to control this irresponsible expansion of schools or they will take over the whole pharmacy profession. The requirement of bachelor degree does not change anything or stop things to go down in pharmacy. And who can require a bachelor degree for admission ?? you or me ?? I wish. We can fight here tooth and nail until one of us drop but it is the schools who decide what is/are the requirement. And when they are too many they will probably be going to admit anything that is moving with 2 legs because they are just not afford not to lol 🙂
regarding the American higher education, I suggest you google and read more about higher education systems around the world for some perspective. Knowing that you or me cannot do anything regarding the current state of pharmacy admission, it would be some good read to pass the time 🙂 I'll give one to start here,
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-is-the-american-md-so-long.1064589/
We might have fought before but I would like to give you the credit when credit is due. Dude, you totally nailed this one !! I had thought that almost anyone who was pre-health major would have got it too. Because that is just too common sense and elementary. I was in shock to hear that KidPharmD saying that it is silly for med schools or pharmacy schools to teach Biochem. Really shocked. And even shocker that was from someone that graduated pharmacy school with a PharmD and completed a pharmacy residency.
That reminds me that I have to be very selective to look for guidance in pharmacy schools, pharmacies, and hospitals. Just because you have a degree (bachelor degree and/or PharmD, etc 🙂 ), it does not mean that would translate to wisdom. And when more and more pharmacy schools are popping up like mushrooms after rain, it is hard to produce wisdom from the pool of students who got in with 1-2's GPA or PCAT in the 10-20's percentile (which might hit the single digit very soon) or even no PCAT at all (sigh).
Last edited:
We already had a long drawn out debate on this topic and the topic of education that went on for several pages and got nowhere, so let’s just leave it at that. However, I do agree with the bolded part - it’ll eventually lead to very stiff competition in the job market.
I’m not going to cast stones. Although KidPharmD’s perspective may differ from ours on this relatively trivial topic, it doesn’t take anything away from his accomplishments or the fact that he’s an experienced residency trained pharmacist – something that neither one of us may ever achieve. Throughout pharmacy school and beyond, there will be highly educated/trained individuals whose opinions don’t quite mirror our own, but that doesn’t give us the right to disrespect them. In fact, we should respect them, as there are countless things we can gain from their knowledge and experience. And who knows, maybe something that we’re so adamant about at one point in time might not be so “correct” when we gain more experience and look back in retrospect. For those reasons, I’m checking my ego and emotions at the door and try to be open-minded. Worse case scenario, respectfully eat the meat and spit out the bones. Just my humble opinion.
Good advice for some folks here!
I am open-minded. Prove me wrong about low standards of pharmacy admission as the result of uncontrolled and irresponsible expansion of pharmacy schools.
I only respect the actions of a man not his titles and credentials. At this age of mine, I have seen enough of characters. Again, I have seen enough in life to say with a certainty that college degrees are not equal to wisdom. Also, a degree or title does not give anyone the right to BS or say any crazy thing as they wish. And I have seen enough of those people in my entire working life. I could care less about where you to go to school or having a degree if you are proving to me that you are good in action. A man is only worth by his action, and that is my philosophy.
I have also lost the ability to BS a long time ago. I call out idiocy and BS when I see it anywhere and anytime. This is not about disagreements. This is a man that says it is silly of med/pharmacy schools to teach Biochem. This is a man that tells that I cannot be ashamed of the low standards in pharmacy, calls to ban me, change my attitude and get out or else for stating facts about low GPAs and PCATs and pharmacy standards going down. And many silly other things that I do not want to go on to list here (but you can read his many posts). Yet this is a man who does not want to take any responsibility for his words, even on the world wide web. I have to remind myself again that there are many people like this in academia where students usually look up to or worship or out there in life. It should not be a shock to me anymore, but I am still shocked to read about those things in his posts and even more shocked that there is still a bunch of people here who would follow him (but no surprise when there are always more idiots and BS/k*ss ass ' ers than decent people). And definitely more and more of people like this will be present in pharmacy. Sad for pharmacy !!
People can go on and respect a person like this. I absolutely have not an ounce of respect for a person like this or his following. Prove to me that you are not a coward or an idiot, you will definitely earn my respect.
I only respect the actions of a man not his titles and credentials. At this age of mine, I have seen enough of characters. Again, I have seen enough in life to say with a certainty that college degrees are not equal to wisdom. Also, a degree or title does not give anyone the right to BS or say any crazy thing as they wish. And I have seen enough of those people in my entire working life. I could care less about where you to go to school or having a degree if you are proving to me that you are good in action. A man is only worth by his action, and that is my philosophy.
I have also lost the ability to BS a long time ago. I call out idiocy and BS when I see it anywhere and anytime. This is not about disagreements. This is a man that says it is silly of med/pharmacy schools to teach Biochem. This is a man that tells that I cannot be ashamed of the low standards in pharmacy, calls to ban me, change my attitude and get out or else for stating facts about low GPAs and PCATs and pharmacy standards going down. And many silly other things that I do not want to go on to list here (but you can read his many posts). Yet this is a man who does not want to take any responsibility for his words, even on the world wide web. I have to remind myself again that there are many people like this in academia where students usually look up to or worship or out there in life. It should not be a shock to me anymore, but I am still shocked to read about those things in his posts and even more shocked that there is still a bunch of people here who would follow him (but no surprise when there are always more idiots and BS/k*ss ass ' ers than decent people). And definitely more and more of people like this will be present in pharmacy. Sad for pharmacy !!
People can go on and respect a person like this. I absolutely have not an ounce of respect for a person like this or his following. Prove to me that you are not a coward or an idiot, you will definitely earn my respect.
Last edited:
Top tier schools stats have stayed relatively the same. It's the newer schools that accecpt garbage statistics.
Finally some worthy response 🙂
Jibby, I am on break at work now so i can't provide you a link. But that thread is on the front page where WSU has cutoff line for application consideration and accepts people with pcat as low as 10 percentile. A bit while ago, i read here on sdn about people getting accepted with 2s gpa and 20s percentile on the pcat at some schools in texas. Those schools are not top tier but they are some mid tier too.
This trend will certainly get us where business and law schools are today very very soon. There are top tier schools that employers will care for and there will be schools that people will refer to as diploma mills whose graduates will have no job but a piece of nice looking paper to hang on their walls.
But all in all, this is a sad time for pharmacy as a whole !! All these are happening because of American greed that is responsible for this uncontrolled and irresponsible expansion of schools to cspitalize on easy student loans and helpless students.
Last edited:
I never disagreed with the bolded part, but what does that have anything to do with the open-mindedness that I mentioned in my previous post?
Your choice... Just be careful whose toes you step on, as some people wear steel toed boots. 😉
I appreciate that you agree with me on that point and are willing to debate things with me in positive manner as I really am open-minded about different ideas. Having good discussions and arguments in a constructive manner is one thing, but you already see above that many people here want try to tear me down or jump me or threaten me with ban over my being sad about low standards of today's pharmacy admission. I was meaning that for those people, not you. I was at work so I might not have been clear on that point. But enough said about this 🙂
you are right that it is my choice. I know exactly what you are talking about. And this type of choice differentiates 2 tiers of people in life: one is having honor and one that isn't.
Last edited:
Ok, I was going to stay out of this, but I don't think that I can ignore this.
First, I did say that I believe that it is silly to offer Biochemistry as a separate class in pharmacy school. I took biochem in undergrad, then took Pharmacology and Medicinal Chemistry (2 semesters each) in pharmacy school. With that information I was able to do well in upper division/rotations and be accepted to 2 years of specialty training. That part is as much as my "credentials" matter. Again, I said I could care less what Med Schools do, because their philosophy on teaching is a little different than ours.
I never called to ban you. Here is what I said: "I keep my mouth shut when people talk about their low GPA's and Scores because I know that there is nothing I can say that would be nice and I like not being banned from the forum. " I am sorry that you misunderstood my meaning here. I meant that if I went into the threads talking about low GPA's and PCATs that I would not be able to express my opinion without risk being banned from the forum. What usually comes to mind does not contribute anything constructive to the conversation.
I hold firm to my belief that lowering requirements are the result of all of the new schools (even top schools take low students in order to fill their seats sometimes, there could also be something about that person you don't know). I would love to have a discussion on what we can do to raise the quality of new practitioners, but I don't believe that this is the place for this discussion because we have gotten onto a bad train of thought here.
My comment on you being "ashamed" was merely meant as a offering of perspective. I deal with the opinons of real medical students, residents, and attendings on a daily basis. I believe my contributions are respected regardless of the state of pharmacy education at the moment. You will begin to see things a little differently as you progress into practice I believe.
You are also reading a lot in my posts that just isn't there, and I don't appreciate the name calling as I don't believe that I have ever done this to you. I still don't believe that there has ever been enough in my posts that would call you to question my character.
Precisely. What do they teach in the "graduate" biochem? Krebs cycle, electron transport chain? If so, just require biochem. The "pharmacy" specific stuff someone above mentioned will just be incorporated into Med chem and pharmacology, and you didn't waste a third of the semester learning undergrad classes. If not, give it a different name, but I doubt this is the case. I see a bunch of programs out there that most of the first semester is Micro, Biochem, and AP, and a bunch of people excusing it as "it's geared specifically to pharmacy".
I do not like the name calling and insulting game here either. That really distracts us from the real concerns and discussions at hand. And it is also unprofessional.
But you have just explained yourself here and I hope we will leave it at that. I did ask you many questions in my posts above and it is up to you to answers those questions. Reading this post of yours, I think that we might have more similarities than differences. And that is great imho !!
I would like to discuss or debate any matter with anyone as long as it is professional and in constructive manner. As you can see, it is easy to make people to miss your good points by saying things like "you are just a pre-pharmacy student and have no business to feel ashamed about pharmacy" and "you need to adjust your attitude or get out" and many other things you say about me in your posts. And I did not have anything but well meaning intention for pharmacy. Also you can see that there was a bunch of people that rode after your posts, defended low standards in pharmacy, and jumped me posts after posts. It is natural that I have to defend myself just like you are doing here. Those things do not happen at all on the same thread that I posted over in the pharmacy forum.
Again, I am a firm believer that a degree or credential does not necessarily mean wisdom. I do not say that your credential and contribution in your job or pharmacy is not real or not respected there. But I can really judge a person more by what I can see for myself.
From this post of yours here, you are great to refrain yourself and acting just like a well-respected professional that I imagine would be. And there is no reason for me to not respect a person like that. I would like to apologize for any misunderstanding on my part and hope that we can continue discussing concerns and sharing ideas/info about pharmacy.
I am passionate about medicine and pharmacy as I come from a family of healthcare workers and inspired by my own parents. And I would like to be clear once again about my good intention and motivation that I have for medicine and pharmacy.
Thank you very much for clearing everything up !! 🙂
Last edited:
if some of them did not do a very job teaching those courses in pharmacy schools, that does not necessarily translate to teaching those courses serving no purpose in regarding pharmacy education. Most pharmacy or even medical schools are teaching those courses.
Pharmerjohn explains very well here 🙂
Many P1 or M1 students who would come in being already experts in their respective science fields like chemistry or biology, etc. I want to add that teaching those courses like Biochem, Microbio, AP would also serve the purpose to even out the playing field in Pharmacy or Medical school. Another example that they "reteach" Anatomy and "reteach" Physiology" in med schools. I saw my friend who was a M1 student with a BS in biology (and he already took many courses in Anatomy and Phys, vert and invert, in his undegrad), litterally threw up after every daily/weekly Anatomy quizzes/exams. His room always smelled like a hospital room 🙂
Last edited:
I don't think requiring a 4-year degree will accomplish anything. Will it make people become better pharmacists?
edit... I think @oldstock concerns about the expansion of pharm school are legitimate. To dismiss his concerns by calling him/her names is unwarranted.
Last edited:
thank you for saying that. Hope everyone can approach this problem with facts, reason and logic. And if we continue sitting around like a bunch of ducks and/or refusing to see the reality, there will no hope for any solution for this problem.
Last edited:
You assume that no one is actually doing anything to address these problems. I believe there are (In fact, I could name names if I needed to). It is unlikely that influential people in APhA, ASHP, ACCP, or ACPE are a part of this forum as it is primarily geared toward students. Secondly, it would be unlikely that anyone doing anything would be likely to announce it here as it would certainly break anonymity. You, yourself are very careful about not saying things that might allow you to be identified. Finally, anything that could be done is fought against in one way or another by those for-profit/money driven schools that are looking to make some money off pharmacy students, and then will cancel the program when it is no longer profitable.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
If you have any info or news that governing bodies in pharmacy is doing something to address these problems, can you please provide us that ?? I assume that we are all sitting around like ducks and doing nothing judging from nothing in the news about solutions to these problems but news about more and more new pharmacy schools keep on opening up and even older schools are expanding. In addition, as you already see here, most pharmacists and pharmacy students here on SDN would just complain and assume a position of doing nothing regarding these problems even when they agree and acknowledge that there are problems resulting from the uncontrollable expansion of schools. So what would your assumption/conclusion be given what I know ??
I do not follow what you are trying to say here. I know that SDN is not a place that influential people in those pharmacy associations would frequent. But again, it has nothing to do with doing something about these problems. They can do something and do not have to be secretive at all. They could write articles and/or announce what they are doing on the news, but so far I have not read or heard anything about that. (Yes there were some articles, but have we seen any action ??) They do not have to announce anything on SDN at all as SDN is not the place. So I do not understand your point about anonymity on SDN or me being anonymous here would have anything to do with what those influential associations or people want to do and/or are doing. (But I am not entirely anonymous as I told you what schools I got accepted to in my PMs to you, right?)
oh, I see... you might have assumed that I did not get my news or info from anywhere else but here ??
so what are we going to do then ??
Last edited:
I was wrong... someone did something about this... 👍👍
but read this below (I repost here)
[QUOTE = "HobbitJane, post: 15325463, member: 534777"]Due to my current feelings of uncertainty regarding pharmacy school, I decided to reach out to the ACPE for assistance. Below you will find the director's response and my original email. I have been calling hospitals in a 75-mile radius surrounding the pharmacy school I will attend in the fall. I have been told that many hospitals are no longer hiring pharmacy interns. At this point, I am wondering if pharmacy students should look into writing their congressmen, the Secretary of Education (Arne Duncan), and maybe a media source (20/20) about the oversaturation issue. Any ideas or comments are welcomed. I figure that without work experience as a pharmacy intern, I will not be able to get a residency and hospital position. If prospects are this dim, I might as well leave because I currently do not know anyone on the inside. I'm tired of walking in a perpetual state of indecisiveness and depression about my future.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear XXXXX(me):
Your email to csinfo was forwarded to me for a response.
You raise some very thought-provoking points in your email. I am sorry you feel so down about the profession as you become a first year student. Truly, you might want to reconsider the profession given your feelings as expressed in your email.
Indeed the number of graduates has grown, as have the number of schools, as have the sizes of the classes. ACPE has no control of any of these things, only that the programs that are offered meet the ACPE accreditation standards that ensure quality pharmacy education. If enrollment grow, then all resources necessary to support those enrollments are expected. It would be a violation of antitrust laws for ACPE to limit any of the things you suggest should be done. Our economy operators on a free market system and such centralized controls are not allowed. It is true that in the past a degree in pharmacy and the licensure that followed to practice pharmacy offered almost any graduate a position; such is not that case and positions will go those most qualified, as defined now by a variety of factors.
Best regards,
Greg B.
J. Gregory Boyer, Ph.D.
Assistant Executive Director &
Director, Professional Degree Program Accreditation
Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education
135 South LaSalle Street, Suite 4100
Chicago, IL 60603-4810
[email protected]
312-664-3575 (office)
312-664-4652 (fax)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXXX (me)
Sent: XXXXX
To: csinfo
Subject: Petition for change
As an incoming first year pharmacy student, my heart is heavy with grief and regret. Over the last eight years I have sacrificed a lot of the teenage and college experience in pursuit of being admitted into pharmacy school. The one thing that motivated me to work hard towards graduating with a 4.0, forgoing sleep and socialization, was my dream of having a stable job where I could help others.
After taking my entrance exam (PCAT), writing a series of essays for applications and preparing for interviews, I discovered that the field of pharmacy is saturated and slowly dying.
Even with work, pharmacy students have to take out unsubsidized loans of over $160,000 to fund their education. Upon graduating, these students must compete amongst each other and former unemployed students for non-existent jobs. Imagine trying to pay off $160,000 in student loans and interest on a minimum-wage salary after obtaining a doctoral degree. At this point these students become slaves to their loans and enter a state of severe depression.
Educational institutions are opening schools that are not needed and accepting sub-par students into their programs. These greedy pharmacy schools push a false narrative to the public without telling people the truth about the horrible state of pharmacy. In order to save pharmacy I believe strict changes are needed.
The federal government and pharmacy associations should:
- Prohibit the opening of pharmacy schools for at least 50 years
- Reduce class sizes by 50% to allow the market to stabilize
- A bachelor’s degree from an accredited American university including all pharmacy prerequisites with a grade of at least a B (3.0)
- A PCAT composite score of at least 85
- One year/200 hours of pharmacy experience
- A history of volunteer work and community service
Sincerely,
XXXXX (me)
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...rning-out-too-many-grads/stories/201310270094
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/[/ QUOTE]
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/recent-response-from-the-acpe-leave-pharmacy.1077650/
Gross anatomy is completely different. You do your own dissections and have to know pretty much everything. Medical school needs that.
You should already know the general biochem mechanisms from biochem and physiology before you get to P1 so you can hit the ground running in med chem and pharmacology. It is pharmacy school, not an undergrad 3rd year bio degree.
I assumed nothing. Discussion here is among people who usually do not have the influence to do anything at this juncture, especially in the pre-pharm forum. The things I have heard discussed at pharmacy meetings involve several things that will not be popular decisions. Some current thoughts are not feasible until the industry and profession has navigated the current change in healthcare (ACA). Among the most open of these comments is the goal to require residency for all pharmacy practice. Some are advocating pushing this change faster than the residency programs can handle in order to place a gate on entrance to the profession that we do have more control over. As residents are paid, this change might bypass the anti-trust problems that plague any suggested changes to the degree programs.
Everything suggested in the letter is beyond the control of the federal government. Even the government can violate Anti-Trust laws, without actually changing the anti-trust act.
you missed the whole point about equalizing the playing field and different focus and scope. Biochem is a course that is being offered at different kinds of levels out there. Biochem is also very important to pharmacy and most pharmacy schools want to ensure that all their pharmacy students are at the needed level of knowledge and understanding for pharmacy study, Pharmerjohn said that very well above. Again, I see you might be biased because you go to a school that does not teach biochem. Again, biochem is even being taught in medical schools despite many of their students coming in with advanced degrees.
Last edited:
Similar threads
