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that it is your first choice. Are you guys doing it? If so when and how?
Telling your #1...
- Thread starter ophthoperson
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This. Programs will rank you based on their preference, not yours. Also, the vast majority of programs rank candidates immediately after each interview session with adjustments made only for new candidates at subsequent interview sessions. For these reasons, post-interview letters, e-mails, phone calls, etc. likely have no bearing on your chances to match. The interview makes or breaks you. If you want to have someone put in a call for you, have them do it prior to the interview.
I'm not entirely sure...certainly prior or very soon after the last interview. One of the program asked for additional letters which I promptly forwarded.
You may be right though...one of my supporters spoke to the chairman the day of my interview without me asking. I never would have known to ask to make the call then.
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Just know from being on the other side of it. May not be the same at every program, but I know a lot of them do it the way I described. The docs who interview and make the decisions don't have a lot of free time, so it's easier to consolidate the ranking process with the interviews. You already have all the docs in the same place, and the interviews are fresh in their minds.
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i do understand the principles of the match. however, i know that, at least in other competitive specialties, people do it. so are you guys going to do it or no? can it hurt?
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So I asked at one of my interviews and I was told I should let them know that they are my #1. Most programs do rank candidates right after the interviews. HOWEVER, there are programs out there who like to boast that they get their top choice candidates (someone told me some PDs at certain schools get a bonus if they get their top ranked candidates..not sure if it's true..). If the school you like is one such program, then let them know for sure so they can rank you higher.
The way I look at it is that it can't hurt you. It might not help you but it can't hurt you, right?
The way I look at it is that it can't hurt you. It might not help you but it can't hurt you, right?
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Programs that are playing those games are likely mid-tier or lower. The top programs know they will get top picks, because everyone wants to go there. It's also against the rules of the match for the program to even hint at where they will rank you.
I would revise your last statement to say "it most likely won't help you, but it can't hurt you." If you want to make such a call, then go for it! Just don't be surprised if you still don't match there. Heck, you could call every program and tell them they are your top choice. I'd actually bet a lot of folks do that.
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anything wrong with mid-tier programs? i don't know if you've heard, but ophtho is sort of competitive 🙂
I interviewed at a very competitive Ty (possibly more than many ophtho programs) that flat out announced rankings would be based on us telling them we would rank them very highly.
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In no way did I disparage mid-tier (or lower) programs with my statement. Heck, I didn't train at a top-tier residency. My statement was a criticism of these ranking games that too often occur. Touting that you matched 4 out of your top 5 ranked candidates is stupid. Who cares? It's especially stupid when you try and manipulate it by cutting deals with your applicants, which is a flagrant violation of match rules and can get you banned from the match.
From the NRMP site:
"8.0 Restrictions on Persuasion
One of the purposes of the Matching Program is to allow both applicants and programs to make selection decisions on a uniform schedule and without coercion or undue or unwarranted pressure. Both applicants and programs may express their interest in each other; however, they shall not solicit verbal or written statements implying a commitment. Applicants shall at all times be free to keep confidential the names or identities of programs to which they have or may apply. In addition, it is a breach of the applicable Match Participation Agreement for:
(a) a program to request applicants to reveal ranking preferences; or
(b) an applicant or program to suggest or inform the other that placement on a rank order list is contingent upon submission of a verbal or written statement indicating ranking intentions; or
(c) a program to require applicants to reveal the names or identities of programs to which they have or may apply; or
(d) a program and an applicant to make any verbal or written contract for appointment to a concurrent year residency or fellowship position prior to the release of the List of Unfilled Programs.
10.0 Match Violations
10.2.1 Applicants
If the NRMP's investigation of an alleged violation results in a finding that an applicant has committed a violation of the applicable Match Participation Agreement, the processing of the applicant's rank order list may be interrupted. The NRMP at its discretion may withdraw the applicant from the Matching Program.
10.2.2 Programs
If the NRMP's investigation of an alleged violation results in a finding that a program has committed a violation of the applicable Match Participation Agreement, the processing of the program's rank order list may be interrupted. The NRMP at its discretion may withdraw the program from the Matching Program."
Similar rules exist for SFMatch, though they are not provided in as much detail on the website.
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A program getting their top choice applicants is only meaningful if they are ranking top notch applicants and getting those top candidates. It's meaningless if they are ranking subpar candidates at the top of their list. This is most applicable when you hear programs touting how well they matched their residents to fellowships, when in fact, they ended up at below average fellowships.
I agree with visionary in that it is absolutely a rule violation to discuss the order of the rank with applicants/residency programs prior to the actual match. Despite that, it probably goes on more than we think.
I agree with visionary in that it is absolutely a rule violation to discuss the order of the rank with applicants/residency programs prior to the actual match. Despite that, it probably goes on more than we think.
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I would imagine it is highly program dependent, but I do not see how it would hurt you. It probably does not change your overall ranking too much but may move you within your tier group. Obviously, programs desire to have people who want to be at their program Generally, if you want to be at a program, you will work harder and be a better resident. So, in those cases, telling the programs may help you.
It would be interesting but perhaps inappropriate to start a list of programs that commit such match violations. There is a program that's notorious in the south east for asking interviewees where else they've applied/interviewed and sometimes to ask interviewees their top 5... How're you even supposed to respond to that?
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It's not just one program, several institutions I interviewed at last year asked as well. My home program asks for it too (it's a SE program, not saying which one though). Best thing is to be honest and not dwell on the subject. Program directors and interviewers also know that you have to interview at multiple places by virtue of how tough the match process is. If you're asked about the Top 5, you can put one or two programs in there but leave it vague and say you haven't decided yet.
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Heck, I had one interview day where it was five people in a row asking me where else I've interviewed and what programs I am considering. It was kind of baffling. I tried to leave it vague as much as I could, but one interviewer pushed the envelope and wanted to know my entire list.
I got the sense that maybe the program didn't review the applications too carefully and were making sure they were catching the same crop as other competitive programs. Other than that, I don't see the point in asking. Obviously I'm considering other programs. Obviously I am unsure of how my rank list will end up looking. That sort of question isn't good for anyone.
I got the sense that maybe the program didn't review the applications too carefully and were making sure they were catching the same crop as other competitive programs. Other than that, I don't see the point in asking. Obviously I'm considering other programs. Obviously I am unsure of how my rank list will end up looking. That sort of question isn't good for anyone.
I had a similar experience to fourchambered; I was generally vague in my responses and got away with it. At another program, however, I was asked who my top 5 were and when I replied I hadn't thought enough about it yet, the interviewer said "well now is a good time to think about it" and waited for me to reply... quite unsettling.
On the topic of telling your top program that they are your number one... The PD at my home program (a top 20 program) mentioned that he sometimes used such emails to help him decide how to rank two equally good candidates. Whether at the bottom of the programs rank list, or ranked to match, telling ONE program that they are your top pick certainly does not hurt.
On the topic of telling your top program that they are your number one... The PD at my home program (a top 20 program) mentioned that he sometimes used such emails to help him decide how to rank two equally good candidates. Whether at the bottom of the programs rank list, or ranked to match, telling ONE program that they are your top pick certainly does not hurt.
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