Terrible lethal injection cocktail

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it doesnt say, but i wonder why they didnt just substitute high dose versed for pentobarb and use the paralytic/potassium mixture they use in other cases
 
The paralytic is out because of the concern that the executed will experience awareness and suffocate awake. Dilaudid/Versed seems like a reasonable way to go. I suspect that hundreds of patients have been knocked off that way over the years. What was witnessed was undoubtedly agonal breaths. Highly unlikely there was any consciousness or pain. If I wanted to off myself, this would be a pretty reasonable choice.
 
Idiopathic said:
it doesnt say, but i wonder why they didnt just substitute high dose versed for pentobarb and use the paralytic/potassium mixture they use in other cases
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I think this whole thing started because the state was having trouble getting any kind of barbiturates.

Agree with above, this is exactly how I'd want to go if I had to be killed.
 
dr doze said:
The paralytic is out because of the concern that the executed will experience awareness and suffocate awake. Dilaudid/Versed seems like a reasonable way to go. I suspect that hundreds of patients have been knocked off that way over the years. What was witnessed was undoubtedly agonal breaths. Highly unlikely there was any consciousness or pain. If I wanted to off myself, this would be a pretty reasonable choice.
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I agree "highly unlikely", but why not use something that works fast (fentanyl, which is just as cheap as hydromorphone), and propofol... And if you give enormous doses of that stuff, why not add some pancuronium to seal the deal... Just seems like a 15 minute ordeal could be easily avoided...
 
Propofol is out. Not allowed to use it otherwise the EU won't ship it here. Which I find weird, why don't they just make it in China like everything else in this country.

We don't know how much they used and my opinion is they didn't use enough of the combination. A whole lot of versed and whole lot of narcotics can kill much quicker than 15 minutes. Of course fentanyl would set in quicker than dilaudid.

On the same topic, to sit there and watch someone die is disturbing in my opinion. I couldn't do it unless I absolutely had to.
 
saw this on CNN. I dunno why there's any reason to beat around the bush if you're pharmacologically executing someone.

if they can't use propofol/phetobarb just do 12 versed, 250 mcg fentanyl, 100 pancuronium and 100meq kcl rapid push.
 
I'm curious what doses were chosen.

Midazolam + hydromorphone is an absolutely humane way to execute someone. Unfortunately, minus a paralytic, you've got journalists with agendas and laypeople with a knowledge deficiency who are going to interpret every twitch as evidence of pain.
 
e30ftw said:
saw this on CNN. I dunno why there's any reason to beat around the bush if you're pharmacologically executing someone.

if they can't use propofol/phetobarb just do 12 versed, 250 mcg fentanyl, 100 pancuronium and 100meq kcl rapid push.
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I'd up your Versed/fentanyl doses by a factor of 10. 12/250 isn't near enough to guarantee induction / no pain, if you're going to care about those things.
 
risnwb said:
I agree "highly unlikely", but why not use something that works fast (fentanyl, which is just as cheap as hydromorphone), and propofol... And if you give enormous doses of that stuff, why not add some pancuronium to seal the deal... Just seems like a 15 minute ordeal could be easily avoided...
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The "ordeal" was only for the witnesses. The executed person was not conscious.
 
I'd go with a plastic bag and a twist tie.
 
Oh, and kick him a few times in the nuts while he's awake.
 
I too am curious as to what doses were given and if re-doses were made. I agree that fentanyl would be a better choice. Also could consider haldol, droperidol, and phenergan.

Some may disagree but I think a reasonable option is gas 'em down with sevo and inject fentanyl + KCl. If I had to be offed, that wouldn't be a bad way to go.
 
CO2 gas chamber - go to sleep from hypercarbia before the sensation of oxygen deprivation hits, then die from hypoxia while asleep. Works for thousands of euthanized animals every day.
 
dr doze said:
The "ordeal" was only for the witnesses. The executed person was not conscious.
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Exactly. The thing is, people want the spectacle of watching someone die, but they don't want to feel uncomfortable doing it. That's half the reason for lethal injection, anyway.

Assuming the doses were high enough, it's a totally reasonable way to off someone. Maybe not the most efficient way, but if that was the primary consideration, we all know there are readily available, non-pharmacologic alternatives.
 
jwk said:
CO2 gas chamber - go to sleep from hypercarbia before the sensation of oxygen deprivation hits, then die from hypoxia while asleep. Works for thousands of euthanized animals every day.
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I seem to remember my lab rats writhing and twitching and making awful noises In the garbage bag of dry ice. Bleah.

+1 to versed 100mg + fentanyl 10gm.
 
Oggg said:
I seem to remember my lab rats writhing and twitching and making awful noises In the garbage bag of dry ice. Bleah.
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Funny, when I was doing lab work with mice we also used CO2, but it was made clear to us that we could never NEVER use dry ice in any form.... under threat of termination and being reported to the animal cruelty board (or whatever their official name was).
 
As for "humane" methods for humans, I always favored a 50-cal to the limbic system. The guy wont even hear the shot. Problem is the cleanup afterwards....

If you want to do it cleanly and simply, I'd go for a massive dose of dilaudad.
 
I disagree with using an opioid at all. 12mg of versed should do the trick. Then paralyze and then KCl. Wheres the utility in using fentanyl?

Also, Etomidate is a J&J drug....so if propofol is out, maybe that could suffice.
 
ArMed said:
I disagree with using an opioid at all. 12mg of versed should do the trick. Then paralyze and then KCl. Wheres the utility in using fentanyl?

Also, Etomidate is a J&J drug....so if propofol is out, maybe that could suffice.
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I'm guessing all of the convulsions and twitching would turn people off.
 
This isn't complicated and doesn't require propofol. Induction dose of any drug x 5 then any muscle relaxant drug dosed x5 wait 2 minutes then give KCl = over.
The controversy must be created by the anti-death penalty movement because a better cocktail is easy to come up with.
 
ArMed said:
I disagree with using an opioid at all. 12mg of versed should do the trick. Then paralyze and then KCl. Wheres the utility in using fentanyl?

Also, Etomidate is a J&J drug....so if propofol is out, maybe that could suffice.
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i think the clonus would be an issue
 
IlDestriero said:
Cattle bolt gun.
I'm not so worried about the scumbag rapist murderers having a "bit of discomfort" on the way out.
IV, 10 of versed, 20 roc. Good enough.
2 in the chest and one in the head works too.
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Skip the versed. 50 of roc. Let him asphyxiate awake. This guy raped and then stabbed a pregnant woman In The throat who then Choked to death on her own blood. Not to mention the baby suffocated. All this publicity is ridiculous.
 
Life without parole in a 50 sq ft concrete box is punishment, not death by any of the means being discussed.

We should get rid of the death penalty. Expensive, prolonged appeals, and ultimately an easy way out for the convicted. It's also irreversible and our courts are not perfect.
 
I agree that imprisonment for life is probably more of a punishment for death row inmates when compared to the death penalty.

Beyond what I or anyone else wants to see happen to these people I am concerned how much each costs: life in prison vs. death penalty. Obviously an expedited death without the appeal circus would cost least but I am hesitant to entertain that since wrongful convictions do occur.

Anyone have any good data on the cost of life in prison vs. death penalty including the appeals process?
 
I've heard upward of $60k annually for incarceration but it depends on jurisdiction. More on death row since they are often held in more isolation.

At the risk of sounding dismissive to skilled docs devising effective cocktails, bullets are cheap and so is rope and gravity. The execution part does not need to be expensive. The legal part is also far more expensive than necessary as well because of mandatory appeals in some cases and allowing repeated appeals in others.
 
The ironic thing is, laypeople would say that 100 of roc is "more humane" because it would look more aesthetically pleasing (other than maybe the tearing up?). They don't really care about what's actually going on.
 
WholeLottaGame7 said:
The ironic thing is, laypeople would say that 100 of roc is "more humane" because it would look more aesthetically pleasing (other than maybe the tearing up?). They don't really care about what's actually going on.
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Ok, agreed, roc is the best . Makes the innocent family/friends feel good because it looks painless, and makes the convicted suffer. I guess I am still on the fence about the death penalty in general though.
 
Why don't we just make death-row dudes (dudettes?) do a bunch of jobs that no one else wants to do? I know that we already do this with license places but....certainly, there must be another industry/function, etc...., that we can exploit?
 
Silent Cool said:
Why don't we just make death-row dudes (dudettes?) do a bunch of jobs that no one else wants to do? I know that we already do this with license places but....certainly, there must be another industry/function, etc...., that we can exploit?
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IIRC, some states used to, then the ACLU came over and said "cruel and inhuman punishment!"
 
On the same note, my home state of TX just executed its >500 inmate since the 70s I read earlier today. Maybe they need to get some pointers as I havent read about any mishap s yet. Texas will never find an obstacle to killing a death row inmate. Trust that.
 
pgg said:
Life without parole in a 50 sq ft concrete box is punishment, not death by any of the means being discussed.

We should get rid of the death penalty. Expensive, prolonged appeals, and ultimately an easy way out for the convicted. It's also irreversible and our courts are not perfect.
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Everyone says it's the easy way out....yet I bet none of the naysayers have ever been told you are about to die. Seems like an easy way out... compared with 50 years in a concrete box....but then again to some people who don't believe in the afterlife, your existence in this universe is about to end. And for those who do believe in it...well where they are going to spend eternity after a horrific crime like that is far worse then that concrete box.

I've just never thought of death as an easy way out. And I'm hard pressed to agree with anyone's rationale unless you've sat in that chair as they get ready to inject and your life as you know it comes to an end. Who are we to say that path is easier having never walked it?
 
The plot thickens.

He was allegedly encouraged by his lawyers to ham up his death to make it look painful, so say the guards, anyway.

Oh, and the family of the "victim" is suing the manufacturers of the midazolam and hydromorphone now.
 
pgg said:
The plot thickens.

He was allegedly encouraged by his lawyers to ham up his death to make it look painful, so say the guards, anyway.

Oh, and the family of the "victim" is suing the manufacturers of the midazolam and hydromorphone now.
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If true, they were doing their jobs. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be despised for doing their job. It an argument that members of the bar just can't swallow. I've laid it on a few. Not well received.

What I find most interesting is the absence of interviews in the media with anesthesiologists who should very simply say that anyone who has ever had a general anesthetic has basically experienced what the condemned prisoner will experience without waking up (minus the psychological stress of what is being done). There have undoubtedly been hundreds if not thousands of unintended deaths across the country over the years in hospitals from narcotic/sedative overdosage. The intent of those drugs at that time was to relieve pain and anxiety. Undoubtedly similar to what this individual experienced. Where are those interviews?
 
They need to file suit against potassium. Personally I'd name all other alkali metals in it as well.
 
Have you or a loved one been caused undue stress due to midazolam (Versed) or hydromorphone (Dilaudid)? If so, you may be entitled to substantial FINANCIAL COMPENSATION!

Remember, you may have recieved these drugs without your knowledge or consent.

Call today!
 
Why didn't they use electrolytes? Why isn't this route ever taken?
 
yappy said:
Why didn't they use electrolytes? Could someone be sedated with versed then given a huge dose of calcium? Why isn't this route ever taken?
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Calcium would be unreliable and unpleasant. Have you ever p
Spinach Dip said:
Have you or a loved one been caused undue stress due to midazolam (Versed) or hydromorphone (Dilaudid)? If so, you may be entitled to substantial FINANCIAL COMPENSATION!

Remember, you may have recieved these drugs without your knowledge or consent.

Call today!
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Actually, I take back my last post. I assumed that the attorney was encouraging his client to exaggerate suffering to bolster ancillary arguments against capital punishment. If that was it, IMO that would be a political act and probably not a violation of legal ethics. If he were doing so to bolster a civil suit for pain and suffering, that would be manufacturing evidence and probably would be unethical, even by the undemanding standards of legal ethics. Again just my non legal opinion.
 
Bostonredsox said:
Everyone says it's the easy way out....yet I bet none of the naysayers have ever been told you are about to die. Seems like an easy way out... compared with 50 years in a concrete box....but then again to some people who don't believe in the afterlife, your existence in this universe is about to end. And for those who do believe in it...well where they are going to spend eternity after a horrific crime like that is far worse then that concrete box.

I've just never thought of death as an easy way out. And I'm hard pressed to agree with anyone's rationale unless you've sat in that chair as they get ready to inject and your life as you know it comes to an end. Who are we to say that path is easier having never walked it?
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You underestimate how delusional many of those people are. Texas keeps a record of its death row inmates' last words. Have a look if you don't believe me. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/dr_executed_offenders.html

I think the death penalty is ****ed. Not because I have any problem with killing a killer, but because our justice system is a joke. Legal convictions are not based on reality, but rather the perception of reality as described by a silver-tongued lawyer and as interpreted by people not smart enough to get out of jury duty. Police have tampered with evidence. Forensic tests are subject to human error. Money plays a large role in legal outcomes. We have sent innocent men to death, this is a fact.
 
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risnwb said:
Controversial execution in Ohio uses new drug combination - CNN.com

They used midazolam and hydromorphone... No wonder it took 15 minutes for him to die. Seems like they were torturing the family...
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It's noted that unless midazolam is not pushed slowly, convulsions and seizure like responses occur. I'm sure it was bolused, plus they gave it to him 5 more times.
What's wrong with a large dose of hydromorphine coupled with fentanyl?!
But I do admit, stabbing a pregnant lady to death..why do they assure any prisoner of an easy passing? Her's wasn't, nor her baby's. I think prisoners should be consumed with how terrible their death process will be. It should never be sold as an injection of drifting off to sleep. But, I also believe if someone is caught in a barbaric act of taking someone's life...they should be shot on sight. Case closed. Housing them for years on end...is a joke! Plus my tax money supports them.
 
CoralReefers73 said:
It's noted that unless midazolam is not pushed slowly, convulsions and seizure like responses occur. I'm sure it was bolused, plus they gave it to him 5 more times.
What's wrong with a large dose of hydromorphine coupled with fentanyl?!
But I do admit, stabbing a pregnant lady to death..why do they assure any prisoner of an easy passing? Her's wasn't, nor her baby's. I think prisoners should be consumed with how terrible their death process will be. It should never be sold as an injection of drifting off to sleep. But, I also believe if someone is caught in a barbaric act of taking someone's life...they should be shot on sight. Case closed. Housing them for years on end...is a joke! Plus my tax money supports them.
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Not sure what your background is, but it's definitely not anesthesia, and maybe not medicine?

We bolus midazolam all the time and it doesn't cause convulsions or seizures. In fact, we often bolus it to STOP seizures. The point of the midazolam is to prevent awareness, which is not reliably done by opioids (though probably would be with the doses this people receive).

Hydromorphone and fentanyl are both opioids, it's unnecessary to give both (other than fentanyl has a slightly shorter onset which is likely not noticeable at the doses they are given).
 
WholeLottaGame7 said:
Not sure what your background is, but it's definitely not anesthesia, and maybe not medicine?

We bolus midazolam all the time and it doesn't cause convulsions or seizures. In fact, we often bolus it to STOP seizures. The point of the midazolam is to prevent awareness, which is not reliably done by opioids (though probably would be with the doses this people receive).

Hydromorphone and fentanyl are both opioids, it's unnecessary to give both (other than fentanyl has a slightly shorter onset which is likely not noticeable at the doses they are given).
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And yes, there are cheaper, faster, and more efficacious ways of executing people than using sloppy combinations of anesthetic drugs.
 
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