Terrible lethal injection cocktail

[Aether2000]

---

Members do not see this ad.

What is amazing to me is the rush to death because the supply of medicines "expires". Expires? Are you kidding me? That is the point of giving the drug in the first place and there is every bit of evidence the drug is good for years after the manufactures fabricated expiration date. A drug does not simply lose potency or become ineffective immediately after the expiration date. There are studies showing potency of liquid forms of drugs (e.g. dilaudid) is still within 5% of the expected amount 40 years later.

 

[waterbottle10]

200 of ROC, then hook up the IV to the no2 tank tank? Hell suffocate

 

[fakin' the funk]

What's wrong with 10grams IM morphine

 

[narcusprince]

Life without parole in a 50 sq ft concrete box is punishment, not death by any of the means being discussed.

We should get rid of the death penalty. Expensive, prolonged appeals, and ultimately an easy way out for the convicted. It's also irreversible and our courts are not perfect.

In addition pgg their are people whom have been put to death whom were innocent. Too much error in the system if we have to kill 100 guys and 10 are innocent then those 10 justify removing the death penalty.

 

[waterbottle10]

What's wrong with 10grams IM morphine

Too slow?

 

[anbuitachi]

Not sure what your background is, but it's definitely not anesthesia, and maybe not medicine?

We bolus midazolam all the time and it doesn't cause convulsions or seizures. In fact, we often bolus it to STOP seizures. The point of the midazolam is to prevent awareness, which is not reliably done by opioids (though probably would be with the doses this people receive).

Hydromorphone and fentanyl are both opioids, it's unnecessary to give both (other than fentanyl has a slightly shorter onset which is likely not noticeable at the doses they are given).

This was on the news today.

4th Arkansas inmate executed in 8 days lurches on gurney

"An Associated Press reporter who witnessed the lethal injection said Williams' body jerked 15 times in quick succession, then the rate slowed for a final five movements. J.R. Davis, a spokesman for Gov. Asa Hutchinson who did not witness the execution, called it "an involuntary muscular reaction" that he said was a widely known effect of the sedative midazolam, the first of three drugs administered.
Williams' attorneys are calling for an investigation into the execution.
"

"
Williams' lawyers said he had sickle cell trait, lupus and brain damage, and argued the combined maladies could subject him to an exceptionally painful execution in violation of the U.S. Constitution. Arkansas' "one size fits all" execution protocol could leave him in pain after a paralytic agent renders him unable to move, they'd argued to state and federal courts, which all rejected his claims.

"

 

[deleted126335]

In addition pgg their are people whom have been put to death whom were innocent. Too much error in the system if we have to kill 100 guys and 10 are innocent then those 10 justify removing the death penalty.

Agree with the sentiment. Certainly many people who have been sentenced to death have been freed from death row subsequently due to things like DNA evidence. Do you have a link for anybody executed in the US whose case was subsequently reevaluated and believed to be innocent?

 

[Mad Jack]

Why don't we just use fentanyl again? I mean, not that I'm for executing people, but if you're going to do it, seems like the most humane way to go about it. High dose fentanyl seems to cause overdoses in addicts all the time, and I don't think I've ever heard of a single one complaining that it felt like torture. If we're going to do the death penalty, my as well make it peaceful- fentanyl sounds like the most peaceful way to go if you megadose it.

 

[Lurch]

What's wrong with propofol and vecuronium+/- propofol infusion if you want to ensure amnesia?

 

[waterbottle10]

What's wrong with propofol and vecuronium+/- propofol infusion if you want to ensure amnesia?

Amnesia? For death penalty?

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

What's wrong with propofol and vecuronium+/- propofol infusion if you want to ensure amnesia?

The issue is not how the inmates feel, it's how it makes the people watching it feel. As I've said before, witnesses would rather see 200 of roc because it's a quiet, peaceful-appearing death, even though it'd probably be a fairly miserable way to go, rather than an opioid/benzo overdose, which would involve some gasping and twitching, even though it would be totally humane for the prisoner.

 

[B-Bone]

The actual issue with all of these cocktails is two-fold:

-Physicians are strongly disincentivized from being involved in any stage of execution planning, for a variety of reasons (ethical/moral, bad press, potential risk of board action, etc). While they are generally no legally barred from involvement, there is functionally no physician involvement in the actual execution (line placement, drug delivery, etc). This leads to these protocols being created by bureaucrats and enacted in the death chamber by prison employees with little-to-no medical training

State executioners: untrained, incompetent, and "complete idiots"

-Most of the above-mentioned drugs are not available for lethal injection. All the "good drugs" are manufactured by companies who are either headquartered in Europe or do heavy business with European nations that find capital punishement abhorrent. They have drawn a line in the sand that they will not export these drugs to be used for capital punishment purposes.

EU imposes strict controls on 'execution drug' exports - BBC News

 

[Lurch]

The issue is not how the inmates feel, it's how it makes the people watching it feel. As I've said before, witnesses would rather see 200 of roc because it's a quiet, peaceful-appearing death, even though it'd probably be a fairly miserable way to go, rather than an opioid/benzo overdose, which would involve some gasping and twitching, even though it would be totally humane for the prisoner.

Fair enough

 

[deleted126335]

The actual issue with all of these cocktails is two-fold:

-Physicians are strongly disincentivized from being involved in any stage of execution planning, for a variety of reasons (ethical/moral, bad press, potential risk of board action, etc). While they are generally no legally barred from involvement, there is functionally no physician involvement in the actual execution (line placement, drug delivery, etc). This leads to these protocols being created by bureaucrats and enacted in the death chamber by prison employees with little-to-no medical training

Simple. Have states pass a law mandating that executioners identities are protected by law. Establish a confidential buying service so "good reliable" drugs can be acquired or compounded in a non FDA certified factory. E.g., Sufentanil, propofol, etc.. Based on the posting of some of the folks here, I am sure that there are many clinically competent board certified anesthesiologists who can reliably establish IV access on any patient are willing to volunteer without compensation.

what's old is new:

 

[Planktonmd]

The death penalty is completely useless and should be abandoned. Not because some of those guys don't deserve to die but because to get to execute a criminal is costing the tax payers millions of dollars spent on appeals and stupid bureaucracy over decades.

 

[drmwvr]

Agree with the sentiment. Certainly many people who have been sentenced to death have been freed from death row subsequently due to things like DNA evidence. Do you have a link for anybody executed in the US whose case was subsequently reevaluated and believed to be innocent?

all cases - Innocence Project

Not all capital cases. From the website Innocence Project. Has a bit of a leftist vibe, which is unfortunate because it isn't a partisan issue at all.

 

[waterbottle10]

The death penalty is completely useless and should be abandoned. Not because some of those guys don't deserve to die but because to get to execute a criminal is costing the tax payers millions of dollars spent on appeals and stupid bureaucracy over decades.

So it's not the penalty that's useless but the process stupid. Just simplify it. Look at China and how cheap it is

 

[narcusprince]

Simple. Have states pass a law mandating that executioners identities are protected by law. Establish a confidential buying service so "good reliable" drugs can be acquired or compounded in a non FDA certified factory. E.g., Sufentanil, propofol, etc.. Based on the posting of some of the folks here, I am sure that there are many clinically competent board certified anesthesiologists who can reliably establish IV access on any patient are willing to volunteer without compensation.

what's old is new:

View attachment 218303
View attachment 218304

How about the Hippocratic oath to do no harm. If you put an innocent man to death then who is the criminal? I like to sleep at night. The death penalty is barbaric. How about allowing prisoners with life in prison the option for assisted suicide.

 

[deleted126335]

How about the Hippocratic oath to do no harm. If you put an innocent man to death then who is the criminal? I like to sleep at night. The death penalty is barbaric. How about allowing prisoners with life in prison the option for assisted suicide.

I am not pro death penalty. I was contributing to the discussion with a little sarcasm. I am familiar with the innocence project and multiple wrongly convicted people sentenced to death is why I am against it. Other reasons I am against are unequal application along racial and economic lines. My question to you was based on your assertion (post 54) that innocent people have actually been executed as opposed to sentenced to death. The question stands.

 

[pgg]

So it's not the penalty that's useless but the process stupid. Just simplify it. Look at China and how cheap it is

Yeah, let's be more like China. What a great idea.

Let's abandon due process and gut the appeals system just so we can execute people cheaply and efficiently, like China.

Just simplify it.

 

[Aether2000]

The death penalty costs far more than life imprisonment because of the cost of appeals.

 

[waterbottle10]

How about the Hippocratic oath to do no harm. If you put an innocent man to death then who is the criminal? I like to sleep at night. The death penalty is barbaric. How about allowing prisoners with life in prison the option for assisted suicide.

Where do you draw the line? Got to do it somewhere. Obviously it should be used on prisoners w evidence beyond doubt like video recordings of the person murdering ppl etc. Nothing is perfect though and at some point it just becomes too costly to prevent that possible one innocent death out of many. It's the same as comfort care, the chance is never 100% that the patient won't recover, but we still recommend it all the time.