Texas General Surgery Residencies

[doctorwlh]

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I am an MS4 heading into residency app time... and I am seeking advice on general surgery programs (in Texas mainly, but I'm also willing to move out of the state). I am looking to eventually do a fellowship in trauma and/or critical care. Step 1 was 240, still waiting on step 2 score, AOA, solid grades, one publication, and good dean's letter. On the downside, my clinical rotations are at community hospitals and clinics, so I have no LOR's from anyone associated with a residency program. I also have not been accepted for any away rotations (due to a late change in specialty choice). Obviously UTSW is the best academic program in the state, but I don't know much about any of the others. Any advice?

 

[DermViser]

Might help to post this in the Surgery forum for accurate advice.

 

[dermaway]

I am an MS4 heading into residency app time... and I am seeking advice on general surgery programs (in Texas mainly, but I'm also willing to move out of the state). I am looking to eventually do a fellowship in trauma and/or critical care. Step 1 was 240, still waiting on step 2 score, AOA, solid grades, one publication, and good dean's letter. On the downside, my clinical rotations are at community hospitals and clinics, so I have no LOR's from anyone associated with a residency program. I also have not been accepted for any away rotations (due to a late change in specialty choice). Obviously UTSW is the best academic program in the state, but I don't know much about any of the others. Any advice?

can't help but crazy you got junior AOA with a 240

one thing i can say is that i have heard of some of my classmates just adding on an away rotation within the past week or two. it might be late and you wouldn't be able to get a letter necessarily, but you could at least rotate in october/november and make good connections with one program in particular

 

[DermViser]

can't help but crazy you got junior AOA with a 240

one thing i can say is that i have heard of some of my classmates just adding on an away rotation within the past week or two. it might be late and you wouldn't be able to get a letter necessarily, but you could at least rotate in october/november and make good connections with one program in particular

AOA status is usually not based solely off board scores.

 

[dermaway]

AOA status is usually not based solely off board scores.

True and I know every school does it differently, was just judging based on who got Junior AOA at my school

So not trying to say the OP was not deserving of AOA status, more so just noting that its interesting how different it is based on school

 

[DermViser]

True and I know every school does it differently, was just judging based on who got Junior AOA at my school

So not trying to say the OP was not deserving of AOA status, more so just noting that its interesting how different it is based on school

No, I meant like Junior AOA vs. Senior AOA. I guess it depends on your medical school and how competitive the students in your med school are.

There are many schools if you look at their criteria it is very much possible to be top of your class in grades and board scores but not get AOA due to not being involved in extracurriculars, research, etc.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Bottom line?

UTSW > Baylor >> all others.

Baylor-Dallas is one of the better community programs...

But if you want great surgical training and are junior AOA with a 240 - you owe it to yourself to broadly expand your search as there are so many programs that dwarf the options in TX.

*(cue the semi-retired non surgeon with an irrational hard-on for Texas programs coming in to tell me how wrong I am for not saying UTSW is the greatest program in the land)

 

[DermViser]

Bottom line?

UTSW > Baylor >> all others.

Baylor-Dallas is one of the better community programs...

But if you want great surgical training and are junior AOA with a 240 - you owe it to yourself to broadly expand your search as there are so many programs that dwarf the options in TX.

*(cue the semi-retired non surgeon with an irrational hard-on for Texas programs coming in to tell me how wrong I am for not saying UTSW is the greatest program in the land)

I'm surprised you didn't mention Baylor College of Medicine (BCM). Always seems to be a fight on SDN between which one is better: UTSW vs. BCM.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm surprised you didn't mention Baylor College of Medicine (BCM). Always seems to be a fight on SDN between which one is better: UTSW vs. BCM.

I did mention it...

Sorry, for clarity I meant UTSW> BCM > all others. Baylor-Dallas is a good community option but not as good as the above two

 

[DermViser]

I did mention it...

Sorry, for clarity I meant UTSW> BCM > all others. Baylor-Dallas is a good community option but not as good as the above two

No I mean, BCM > UTSW, as BCM is the more well regarded medical school (happens to be private as well).

 

[mimelim]

I'm surprised you didn't mention Baylor College of Medicine (BCM). Always seems to be a fight on SDN between which one is better: UTSW vs. BCM.

The post you quoted says UTSW > BCM. Not sure what you are on aboit... Brigham was the only gen surg program I ranked above UTSW.

 

[DermViser]

The post you quoted says UTSW > BCM.

The post I quoted said: "UTSW > Baylor" his next line said Baylor-Dallas, hence the confusion on my part.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

No I mean, BCM > UTSW, as BCM is the more well regarded medical school (happens to be private as well).

BCM is a more highly regarded med school; but I don't think the surgical training compares favorably to UTSW. @mimelim may know better than I do.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

The post I quoted said: "UTSW > Baylor" his next line said Baylor-Dallas, hence the confusion on my part.

Sorry that was what I tried to clarify in my follow up. When I said "UTSW> Baylor" I was referring to BCM. The Baylor-Dallas comment was a subsequent non-related thought

 

[mimelim]

UTSW > BCM especially since BCM lost Methodist and is in the process of losing St. Luke's. I guess if you have to be in Houston it is one thing, but I have a hard time finding a reason to take BCM over UTSW.

 

[DermViser]

Brigham was the only gen surg program I ranked above UTSW.

I hope you're joking...

 

[mimelim]

I hope you're joking...

I forgot you know more about surgery and surgical programs than the rest of us. My bad. Please continue to educate us.

 

[DermViser]

I forgot you know more about surgery and surgical programs than the rest of us. My bad. Please continue to educate us.

I didn't say that. I'm just surprised that one would rank only Brigham and Women's higher than UTSW, in any specialty, much less Surgery.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I didn't say that. I'm just surprised that one would rank only Brigham and Women's higher than UTSW, in any specialty, much less Surgery.

Well not to put words in his mouth but he was cross applying in general and vascular; he likely didn't rank all that many gen surg programs highly. And you could do far worse than those two programs

 

[DermViser]

Well not to put words in his mouth but he was cross applying in general and vascular; he likely didn't rank all that many gen surg programs highly. And you could do far worse than those two programs

Ah, ok, he was cross applying. That makes much more sense.

 

[Winged Scapula]

UTSW >> Baylor >> everything else.

Advice? There are a lot of very high quality programs outside of Texas that also have the advantage of not being in *Texas*. LOL. Expand your horizons.

Perhaps @balaguru would like to weigh in.

 

[Winged Scapula]

*(cue the semi-retired non surgeon with an irrational hard-on for Texas programs coming in to tell me how wrong I am for not saying UTSW is the greatest program in the land)

 

[Wordead]

Isnt UTSW the consensus most malignant program in the history of all occupations ever?

 

[DermViser]

Isnt UTSW the consensus most malignant program in the history of all occupations ever?

According to SDN history, their IM program definitely was. 😆

 

[Winged Scapula]

Isnt UTSW the consensus most malignant program in the history of all occupations ever?

Reportedly its no cakewalk but the training is top notch, so some can stand the egos involved. UTHouston surgery residents were much more unpleasant IMHO back in the day.

 

[DermViser]

Reportedly its no cakewalk but the training is top notch, so some can stand the egos involved. UTHouston surgery residents were much more unpleasant IMHO back in the day.

But General Surgery is never a cakewalk, right? Does UTSW just have better faculty or much greater volume and why it's "the best"?

 

[Winged Scapula]

But General Surgery is never a cakewalk, right? Does UTSW just have better faculty or much greater volume and why it's "the best"?

No I'd imagine that its never a cakewalk but there are kinder and gentler programs.

I've never been a resident at UTSW (I did interview there for fellowship) but yes, the faculty is well known, with great facilities and training.

 

[Danbo1957]

.............

 

[mimelim]

I didn't say that. I'm just surprised that one would rank only Brigham and Women's higher than UTSW, in any specialty, much less Surgery.

I applied IVS and GS. I had an intercalated list. The general surgery programs that I ranked highly either had an established Vascular pathway (UTSW 4+2) or were about to launch an IVS program that the faculty were amenable to me laterally transferring into as a PGY2 or 3. I also obviously took into account the possibility of me remaining in GS and only had programs on my list that I could see doing that at. Despite that, it would be unusual, but not be crazy for someone to have a rank list that started Brigham, UTSW.... Stranger things have happened. People have different priorities and things that they are looking for. Also, if you aren't familiar with UTSW, it is considered to be a fantastic program.

But General Surgery is never a cakewalk, right? Does UTSW just have better faculty or much greater volume and why it's "the best"?

Obviously this is all hand waving (like any residency 'ranking' system is), but UTSW is considered to be one of the top programs in the country. When I applied a few years ago, it was the largest GS residency in the US (13 categorical residents per year) and has the volume to match that behemoth training system. Their faculty are very well regarded in a lot of subspecialties as well. They have a 4+2 vascular program. They afford a great deal of autonomy to their residents to run their services relative to other 'top' programs. And, it is in Dallas, TX. (which is important considering that Texas has more people than any state in the US except California.)

 

[MilkIsGood]

UTSW > BCM especially since BCM lost Methodist and is in the process of losing St. Luke's. I guess if you have to be in Houston it is one thing, but I have a hard time finding a reason to take BCM over UTSW.

Baylor is losing st. luke?

 

[Danbo1957]

Baylor is losing st. luke?

No.

St. Luke's was sold to Catholic Health Initiatives (CHI). Baylor College of Medicine and Texas Heart are going to expand into a new hospital to be built along with CHI that will replace St. Luke's:

https://www.bcm.edu/news/expansion/new-partnership-chi-stl-baylor-texas-heart

 

[DermViser]

Baylor is losing st. luke?

No. But I believe their med school is on probation (silly reasons): http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/...or-college-of-medicine-on-probation-with.html

 

[Danbo1957]

More detail on BCM's "probation"; there seems to be issues of transfering towards a more centralized administration:

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/new...g-body-places-Baylor-on-probation-5585791.php

 

[NickNaylor]

UTSW >> Baylor >> everything else.

Advice? There are a lot of very high quality programs outside of Texas that also have the advantage of not being in *Texas*. LOL. Expand your horizons.

 

[DermViser]

I'm imagining NickNaylor doing the facial expressions of these gifs.

 

[balaguru]

Regarding UTSW vs BCM, I think it's more like = than >. I'm in a group of 20+ trauma surgeons and most of us have some affiliation with either UTSW or BCM as either residents or faculty and we all seem to have good things to say about our time at either place. Parkland and Ben Taub both offer a great clinical and academic trauma experience if you already know that is what you are interested in. Also both programs offer a well rounded experience in all areas of general surgery. But like any program you get what you put into it. If you expect to be spoon fed stuff you'll come out a lesser surgeon no matter where you train.

Regarding malignancy: I don't where this stuff comes from. Even when I talk to the old timers I never got the sense that the program was malignant. At UTSW you are given a lot of autonomy. In return, you are expected to perform and when you have issues as a junior resident deficiencies will be pointed out. Some people become devastated when their faults are pointed out and never recover fully. Others just say ok, fix the problem and move on. There were 3 or 4 residents during my time there that were either asked to repeat a year (usually 3rd) or did not have their contracts renewed. These residents were given multiple opportunities to fix issues. One of my classmates repeated his 3rd year and now is board certified on his first attempt and is a CT fellow at a well respected program. If malignant is another name for habitual work hour violator then this is also untrue. All rotations are setup to be work hour compliant. Except for 1 of my intern months on transplant I rarely, possibly never, worked more than 70 hrs per week.

I was class of '13 at UTSW and I can honestly say I had a blast there. I miss the people, big cases and hustle and bustle of the place. With that said I probably would have been happy at a wide variety of places. PM me if you have specific questions.

 

[DermViser]

Regarding UTSW vs BCM, I think it's more like = than >. I'm in a group of 20+ trauma surgeons and most of us have some affiliation with either UTSW or BCM as either residents or faculty and we all seem to have good things to say about our time at either place. Parkland and Ben Taub both offer a great clinical and academic trauma experience if you already know that is what you are interested in. Also both programs offer a well rounded experience in all areas of general surgery. But like any program you get what you put into it. If you expect to be spoon fed stuff you'll come out a lesser surgeon no matter where you train.

Regarding malignancy: I don't where this stuff comes from. Even when I talk to the old timers I never got the sense that the program was malignant. At UTSW you are given a lot of autonomy. In return, you are expected to perform and when you have issues as a junior resident deficiencies will be pointed out. Some people become devastated when their faults are pointed out and never recover fully. Others just say ok, fix the problem and move on. There were 3 or 4 residents during my time there that were either asked to repeat a year (usually 3rd) or did not have their contracts renewed. These residents were given multiple opportunities to fix issues. One of my classmates repeated his 3rd year and now is board certified on his first attempt and is a CT fellow at a well respected program. If malignant is another name for habitual work hour violator then this is also untrue. All rotations are setup to be work hour compliant. Except for 1 of my intern months on transplant I rarely, possibly never, worked more than 70 hrs per week.

I was class of '13 at UTSW and I can honestly say I had a blast there. I miss the people, big cases and hustle and bustle of the place. With that said I probably would have been happy at a wide variety of places. PM me if you have specific questions.

😵

 

[balaguru]

If you expect all of the approximately 13x5+13x4 = 117 residents that I had exposure to during training to become competent surgeons in 5 years when the underlying attrition rate across the country is 20% then you are being unreasonable.

 

[DermViser]

If you expect all of the approximately 13x5+13x4 = 117 residents that I had exposure to during training to become competent surgeons in 5 years when the underlying attrition rate across the country is 20% then you are being unreasonable.

I agree. The attrition rate in your specialty, is ridiculously high, IMHO. Should be lower.

 

[swensev1]

Did ERAS yesterday. Applied to 5 TX programs:
Baylor University - Dallas
Methodist Health - Dallas
Texas A&M - Temple
UT Galveston
UTSW - Austin

I'll share when they download me, info learned, etc. Would love for you to post what you think/know about these programs.

I'm challenged with 205 Step 1 (there were some issues)
Awaiting Step 2 results like you. I took it August 1st. I heard on Redditt we should hear back 09/24/2014.

Thanks for the post and come ON, Longhorns!