Thank You to the Board & My Plan for Post-Bacc

[lawyer2medicine]

I first wanted to say "thank you" to the members of SDN. I have read this site at great length (although a long time lurker I'm only a very recent member) and I never cease to be impressed with how helpful everyone is to even the most mundane of questions. I hope in the years to come to give back even a small amount of what this site has taught me regarding how best to accomplish my long-term goals. Although, based on everything I read, I am confident in the approach I will outline below, if anyone has any thoughts they would be much appreciated.

A little about me is probably in order. I am a 34 year old corporate / bankruptcy attorney (6 years at a Wall St. firm and most recent 2 years in solo-practice). I went to a top 25 law school (more towards the bottom of said 25 than the top) where I graduated with 3.6 GPA. I scored 162 on the LSAT. My undergraduate degree in accounting, although accomplished with a 3.7 GPA, is from a small no name school (no science classes to speak of). 1250 on SAT which is nothing spectacular but under circumstances below I was happy with it. Granted that no name school educated me enough so that I passed all 4 parts of the CPA exam in my first sitting, but still no name is no name. As I was coming from a no name undergraduate and attempting to get into a top tier law school I took summer classes at an Ivy and did very well. So much so that my professor wrote me a letter of recommendation that I am certain to this day played a huge part in my getting into a top law school.

So, why do I want to do a post-bacc and then go to medical school? It's not because I'm miserable practicing law. I don't love it but I far from hate it. The money is good and I do enjoy the clients I work with. Rather I was raised in a very difficult emotional environment. How I was treated from as young as I can remember to my late teens when I left for college was something I would not wish on anyone. This led to anxiety, panic attacks and corresponding depression for as long as I can remember. As I approached 30 years old, and felt I was hitting rock bottom, I stood up and finally sought help. The work I have done with my doctor over the last few years has been nothing short of life altering. My anxiety, panic attacks and corresponding depression are a thing of the past. I am truly inspired to seek a medical degree with the ultimate goal of helping even one person the way my doctor has helped me.

For those that have read this far thank you. So, my plan for my post-bacc is as follows. I believe I need a 2-year program to make myself a more solid candidate for medical school. I have mentored and tutored teens, but otherwise my EC activities are not all that impressive over the last few years. Further, I realize I need to really devote time to working in the mental health field (I've spent a lot of time on my own mental health but only now feel ready to help others through volunteer / other opportunities). I plan on applying to the Health Careers Program at Harvard. I understand acceptance is fairly liberal (still fingers crossed, knock on wood, etc.). The only detraction re: the program I've read on this board that really stands out is that the support staff in terms of guiding you on the journey from post-bacc to medical school could be better. I think I'm willing to accept that cost with the benefit being more time to build up my resume outside of the law.

I've also considered, and would appreciate thoughts, on how I'd look to an adcom coming from one of the top 1 year programs (obviously w/the big assumption that I could even get into one). I'm up there in years so if I could chop a year off of things that would obviously be a plus.

It's been a lifetime that has gotten me to this point and I just wanted to bounce things off the community to make sure I'm approaching this in the best way possible. I appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Thank you.

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[johnnyscans]

Welcome. I'm currently enrolled in the Health Careers Program at Harvard and from what I've experienced so far is that guidance and support from the staff is there if you go looking for it. I've found Dr. Fixsen and Owen Peterson extremely accessible and helpful, and the rest of the Harvard community (financial services, etc) are on the ball.

Let me know if you have any questions, especially in regards to the transition from law (or finance/IT, in my case) to pre-med student.

 

[aSagacious]

I'm not familiar with Harvard's HCP, so I'll just share my two cents on your general approach. Generally speaking, AdComs want to see a sustained demonstrated interest in medicine and a well thought out motivation. As you mentioned, this requires clinical experience (through shadowing, volunteering, working as a tech of some sort, etc). While I understand your concern for time I strongly recommend spreading your coursework out over two years rather than one. This would both ensure you good grades as well as allow you to allocate more time to relevant extra-curriculars over that timespan.

Here's what I suggest:
Fall 1: Chem 1 (w/ lab), Calc 1, Bio 1 (w/ lab)
Spring 1: Chem 2 (w/ lab), Calc 2, Bio 2 (w/ lab)
Fall 2: Orgo 1 (w/ lab), Physics 1 (w/ lab)
Spring 2: Orgo 2 (w/ lab), Physics 2 (w/ lab), MCAT (in April)

If you do well in these courses while maintaining your commitments with your various ECs (and of course do reasonably well on your MCAT, 30+) then I think you'll have a good shot.

Good luck.

 

[johnnyscans]

I'm not familiar with Harvard's HCP, so I'll just share my two cents on your general approach. Generally speaking, AdComs want to see a sustained demonstrated interest in medicine and a well thought out motivation. As you mentioned, this requires clinical experience (through shadowing, volunteering, working as a tech of some sort, etc). While I understand your concern for time I strongly recommend spreading your coursework out over two years rather than one. This would both ensure you good grades as well as allow you to allocate more time to relevant extra-curriculars over that timespan.

Here's what I suggest:
Fall 1: Chem 1 (w/ lab), Calc 1, Bio 1 (w/ lab)
Spring 1: Chem 2 (w/ lab), Calc 2, Bio 2 (w/ lab)
Fall 2: Orgo 1 (w/ lab), Physics 1 (w/ lab)
Spring 2: Orgo 2 (w/ lab), Physics 2 (w/ lab), MCAT (in April)

If you do well in these courses while maintaining your commitments with your various ECs (and of course do reasonably well on your MCAT, 30+) then I think you'll have a good shot.

Good luck.

Ding Ding - the 2 year plan is often seen as a "test of fitness" for admission comittees - it's long enough for you to demonstrate your abilities in the classroom but not too long as to dilute the required work. Overall, aSagacious hit the nail on the head, but I have a few "counter" suggestions. I'd recommend Chemistry and Physics at the same time, followed by Orgo and Biology - I know that the HCP recommends this plan and, if I had to redo the courses I've already taken, I would have done it in this manner. Chemistry and Physics have some overlap, and some of the topics you cover in Chemistry will help you with your first semester of general Biology (you'll know the structure of the atom, what it means to be charged, proton gradients, etc.). Also, Physics absolutely destroys some people - I wouldn't want to be one of those who struggles in Physics while taking the monster that is Orgo.

Also, if you haven't been in school for a while, I'd recommend against jumping right into 12 credits with hardcore volunteering. Remember, a B+ in Chemistry and Biology isn't going to cut it, you need to get an A/A- in every course. Last semester (my first as a post-bacc student) I started with Chemistry 1 and Biology 2 (since the school I was at didn't require Biology 1 for Biology 2) and volunteered/shadowed approximately 6-8 hours/week. This semester I'm in Physics 1 and Biology 1 and volunteer research approximately 25 hours a week. Next semester I will be taking 12 credits, performing research and will be adding clinical volunteering to my schedule. Your priority is academic performance - titrate everything else into your schedule as you gain confidence in your ability to perform well in the classroom. One lost semester of volunteering out of a two year window can be made up much more easily than poor grades in your pre-reqs.

aSagacious, I mean no offense by offering these suggestions - I just want the OP to have as much information as possible.

 

[aSagacious]

aSagacious, I mean no offense by offering these suggestions - I just want the OP to have as much information as possible.

None taken.

 

[olderdoctor]

but I have a JD and wanted to share the following:

Medical schools tend to be very skeptical of lawyers. Interviewers often hold many stereotypes, including:

- lawyers are "bad" at math and science (even despite MCAT/GPA to the contrary)

- lawyer applicants are "quitters" who are likely to quit medicine.

- lawyer applicants don't want to become "real" doctors, but want an MD to run a pharm company, hospital or insurance company.

In addition, expect the medical schools to be aware of how to judge your legal past. For example. expect them to know a 162 LSAT is not particularly good, a T25 law school is not particularly impressive, etc. I worked at S&C in NYC and was asked why I didn't clerk, and whether I had applied to work at Wachtell and Cravath. Also, if you worked on your own (and honestly, I can't imagine what you were doing if you were in Biglaw before), expect them to grill you on this.

Also, there has been a spike in JD applicants to med school recently. Admissions officers were telling me things like a 5X increase (numbers are still small, but I was hearing that they were going from 2-3 applicants a year to 10-15).

If you can get into a top postbac, I would. But with your GPA/SAT/LSAT, it may be tough. Older students have tougher times generally, but older lawyers really have to fight. I have a friend who graduated HYS law school, had a science undergrad, did well on the MCAT, but was destroyed at interviews for being a lawyer. He got into medical school, but at none of his top choices.

There are success stories, but these people often have ridiculous resumes. Good luck.

 

[SpagoBMS]

Thanks for the info. Do you recommend not taking any classes in the summer? Does that not reflect favorably on your app that you took an "abridged" version of a pre-req?

Also just curious, do most med schools require Calc 2? I've already taken one course of English and Calc in college but I'm reading that med schools like at least two sememster of English and this is the first I'm seeing of two semesters of Calc.

Thanks again.

 

[johnnyscans]

Thanks for the info. Do you recommend not taking any classes in the summer? Does that not reflect favorably on your app that you took an "abridged" version of a pre-req?

Also just curious, do most med schools require Calc 2? I've already taken one course of English and Calc in college but I'm reading that med schools like at least two sememster of English and this is the first I'm seeing of two semesters of Calc.

Thanks again.

Here's the thing with summer courses (from my understanding): it depends. Some summer programs are very well-regarded. Let's say you're in the HCP at Harvard and you wanted to finish it in one year. The only way to do that would be summer chem, then orgo physics and bio throughout the year. In my opinion, this won't be counted against you. You adapted and pushed yourself to get things done at a fast pace, and didn't slack off during the year. As long as you kick butt grade wise, I don't think this will cause any problems.

Let's take the flip side. You attend a tough university and take Orgo over the summer at another university that's not in the same ballpark academics wise in order to avoid a possible bad grade. Adcoms will ask about this, and you better have a damn good answer why you chose to take your classes that way. Maybe you had a research gig at a lab near this school, and it fit your schedule. Just make sure your reason for taking a summer class is intelligent.

This upcoming summer I plan on taking microbiology and biochemistry - both for my own interest (since mirco will help me with my research position) and for mcat/med school preparation (since my advisor HEAVILY recommends biochemistry). I want to have them completed before applying, as I believe they will help to show the adcoms that I can handle upper level science coursework (which is important for me, a non-trad applicant with very little science background).

In regards to Calc 2: I've skimmed through the newest MSAR and outside of the very top programs, most don't require the full year calculus sequence. The vast majority require a single math course, and recommend that it be statistics, or two courses: one in calc and one in statistics. If you get into a program that requires it take Calc 2 in the spring of your glide year - it's generally a matriculation requirement, not an application requirement. The best bet though is to contact the individual programs and ask.

I know this is overkill, but pick up the MSAR, choose 5-8 varying schools (in terms of ranking) and check out their requirements. Put it in a spreadsheet and mark them off as you complete them. This way, you won't be surprised come application/admission time.

 

[lawyer2medicine]

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Receiving advice from one with a similar background is quite helpful. My thoughts re: what you wrote are set off with *** below (I know there's a more elegant way to reply, however, it's late at night). I understand I do not have the experience with this that you do, however, hopefully my reasoning has a basis in reality.

Medical schools tend to be very skeptical of lawyers. Interviewers often hold many stereotypes, including:

- lawyers are "bad" at math and science (even despite MCAT/GPA to the contrary)
*** all I can do is take the courses, destroy them, and hope I do not run into an adcom member who holds this hard and fast belief.***

- lawyer applicants are "quitters" who are likely to quit medicine.
*** I practiced for 8 years. I would hope that the story I tell as to what led me to medicine will be viewed with some level of respect rather than simply quitting one career for another. I'd also hope that having dedicated myself to a career for 8 years shows that when I'm involved in something I do not simply jump ship - rather I'm dedicated and I only make a change when it is a decision I am absolutely sure of.***

- lawyer applicants don't want to become "real" doctors, but want an MD to run a pharm company, hospital or insurance company.
*** hopefully my story, as well as clinical experience, will put them at ease re: this point***

For example. expect them to know a 162 LSAT is not particularly good,
*** it's top 15% - not medical school material but not something you'd write someone off as unintelligent either. Per above, I'll need to knock out top top grades postbac to prove my ability***

I worked at S&C in NYC and was asked why I didn't clerk, and whether I had applied to work at Wachtell and Cravath.
*** I worked at Cahill Gordon & Reindel in NYC. If someone asks why I didn't work at Wachtell I'll simply shrug my shoulders as Wachtell is what it is. If someone asks why I didn't work at Cravath I should simply ask them to look at a league table and ask the person from Cravath why they didn't work where I did during the high yield boom. Granted I wouldn't actually say that so I'll have to work on a more eloquent respone. ***

Also, if you worked on your own (and honestly, I can't imagine what you were doing if you were in Biglaw before), expect them to grill you on this.
*** I got tired of working on restructuring transactions as the high yield deals went down the toilet so I went out on my own and do Ch. 11 bankruptcy work with small to medium sized businesses. I built a successful practice in a very short time. I would also hope someone would view this as evidence of my ability to possibly one day run my own medical practice however if one is going to (a) view biglaw as a negative and (ii) view being a self-employed lawyer as an even worse sin what can I do.***

If you can get into a top postbac, I would. But with your GPA/SAT/LSAT, it may be tough.
*** It seems to me that the top postbac programs (Bryn Mawr and those similar) would not be a good fit for me - first, for many reasons you've detailed I am unlikely to get in. Also, a 2-year program offers me a much greater opportunity to participate in research, volunteer, shadowing, etc. That is an absolute necessity for me if I'm to make myself competitive.***

I have a friend who graduated HYS law school, had a science undergrad, did well on the MCAT, but was destroyed at interviews for being a lawyer.
*** While helpful if there's one thing I learned from this forum it's that every applicant is different. Maybe your friend is an awful interview. He could be one of those people at Wachtell who you'd kill yourself before you had a beer with. I'm a (relatively) normal and genuine person who interviews well. For all the years of my anxiety and panic that's something that never made me nervous - go figure. I'm sure that's why I obtained employment with a law firm above my undergrad / law school and why I do well with clients now and people in general. Hopefully, if based on postbac, experience and story, I can make my way out of the rejected pile and into the interview pile I'll stand a fighting chance.***

He got into medical school, but at none of his top choices.
*** I'll take that!***

There are success stories, but these people often have ridiculous resumes. Good luck.
*** Thank you***

Maybe I'm deluding myself but rereading the above I do think I'm realistic about all of this. Net net I know what I need to do - destroy ALL of my postbac classes and MCAT, get some great experience and keep my fingers crossed that I make it to the interview process. Taking a shot at this goal postbac over the next two years is something I'm passionate about and confident (though not delusional) about my ultimate success. To approach it any other way would all but guarantee failure.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply.

 

[olderdoctor]

Don't mean to be discouraging. Random thoughts -

1. Yes, my friend is socially awkward and not a good interviewer. That played a part. But he (and I) got a lot of hostile questions for being a lawyer.

2. You're right, all you can do is kill the MCAT, science classes. But even if you do, expect skepticism about your committment/ability to medicine. Just be prepared for the hate.

3. I really think you will get a lot of hostility for practicing 8 years. Clearly, your interpretation is reasonable (you are committed, and only leave if necessary etc.), but be prepared for a polar opposite viewpoint. I found it incredibly hard to convince people I was serious after practicing for 3 years. They just assume you've burned out or bored, or whatever, and just want out.

My (non-science) stats were a good bit higher than yours, and I also like to consider myself a normal guy. But I can't tell you how many times I heard, "Look, you're obviously very smart, and even if you can handle this academically, but I'm just not sure I feel comfortable that you will follow through on this committment." It was very, very discouraging.

My opinion is that taking the 2-year approach is the way to go in your case. Because you can immerse yourself in either research or volunteering (or both), and so by the time you've applied, you can have a relatively deep background to support your otherwise suspicious story of wanting to switch careers in your mid-30s. And if you're ok going to basically any U.S. medical school, you should be able to do this.

 

[lawyer2medicine]

I did not take what you initially wrote as discouraging in and of itself. Rather you were presenting the difficulties you think I'll encounter and that I should be prepared for. It was very helpful and I do live in the real world so if news is at times discouraging it is what it is and its up to me to overcome those obstacles and preconceived notions if I'm to accomplish what I need to.

The only thing I'll ever be able to do to evidence that "I'll follow through on this commitment" to an adcom is to do lots of research and volunteering, like you said, and also to speak honestly about what inspired me to make this move. I am hopeful an interviewer and adcom will view the totality of things as evidencing my deep-seated commitment to dedicating the rest of my life to this career.

May I ask some things about the road you went down to get to where you are today? After working 3 years at biglaw did you do a postbac? If so at what school? Research / volunteer prior? Any details you could provide as to how you, and your friend, got down this road successfully would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

 

[DrMidlife]

There are a bunch of lawyer-to-doctor folks in the nontrad forum, fyi. I recommend looking for multiple folks for a diversity of opinion. The anti-lawyer bias isn't present in other folks' stories.

 

[lawyer2medicine]

That's very helpful to hear. I'm starting to make my way through that forum and its threads.

Also, I was going to private message you for your thoughts as, although seemingly everyone here is helpful, from reading just a handful of threads you go above and beyond. I'm not surprised you added something helpful here as well. Thank you.