Thanks a lot RVU.

[JaggerPlate]

Or - more likely - the ACGME and various residencies could look at what's developing on the DO side of the house and move to ban osteopathic students from participating in the NRMP match, leaving only those MD residencies that failed to fill in the match open in the scramble...and giving us a system more like the Canadian match than what we have today.

I keep saying this and no one seems to get it/care. Totally agree though.

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[cliquesh]

What do you mean on this side? I'm being serious. I'm just curious what you are referring too. Also, do you really think that would ever happen? The banning of osteopathic students from the ACGME match? I'd think the AOA would scream discrimination loud enough to prevent it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

What do you mean on this side? I'm being serious. I'm just curious what you are referring too. Also, do you really think that would ever happen? The banning of osteopathic students from the ACGME match? I'd think the AOA would scream discrimination loud enough to prevent it.

Hahaha ... don't count on the AOA to scream about it, and don't count on the ACGME to give a damn. The standards fall low enough, they can no longer count on those students in their residencies so they close their doors. Simple as that. Something like this ... or something like a division where older more established become accredited by something else and for-profit/new schools built after are cut out of all things AMA/ACGME.

 

[DOinMS]

What do you mean on this side? I'm being serious. I'm just curious what you are referring too. Also, do you really think that would ever happen? The banning of osteopathic students from the ACGME match? I'd think the AOA would scream discrimination loud enough to prevent it.

Uhhh - is this not exactly what is currently going on with the osteopathic match?? To participate in the osteopathic match you have to have graduated from a COCA-accredited school. LCME-accredited graduates need not apply.

I completely aggree with Old_Mil and Jaggerplate.

 

[meister]

Um... are you sure you had classes with me.

Nope, confused you with someone else. My mistake.

 

[DrSwede]

Or - more likely - the ACGME and various residencies could look at what's developing on the DO side of the house and move to ban osteopathic students from participating in the NRMP match, leaving only those MD residencies that failed to fill in the match open in the scramble...and giving us a system more like the Canadian match than what we have today

I believe the AMA president has "unofficially" conveyed these feelings to the AOA president sometime in the last month.

I don't have an article to site or anything, it's just what I've heard from those in the student government who've gone to some of these national meetings.

 

[Dissected]

Hahaha ... don't count on the AOA to scream about it, and don't count on the ACGME to give a damn. The standards fall low enough, they can no longer count on those students in their residencies so they close their doors. Simple as that. Something like this ... or something like a division where older more established become accredited by something else and for-profit/new schools built after are cut out of all things AMA/ACGME.

It seems like this would be pretty far down the road, no? more for-profit schools would actually have to start for this to happen AND they would have to start graduating enough classes with lower standards...probably at least 10 years more even if a few of these schools started popping up out of the blue-- not the greatest time to start a business with the economy how it is. theres no way they would be able to fund the start up of a med school without loans to do it. plus RVU's standards really aren't that low as of now. thoughts?

 

[JeffLebowski]

Personally, I'm kind of glad MD schools are increasing enrollment without increasing residency spots. A sizeable chunk of ACGME residencies are going to non-U.S. MD graduates, and I think this should be minimized. MD residency spots should go to domestic MD graduates. The increasing need for physicians should be met with a proportional increase of MD graduates, not by keeping the # of MD's constant and adding more DO schools. With increasing MD graduates, commercial overexpansion (relative to clinical and post-graduate training and with this new "for-profit" model) of DO's, it's likely that IMG's (first) and DO's (second) will face increasing difficulty gaining allopathic residencies. This will no doubt force the AOA to start establishing solid post-graduate training for its graduates. Otherwise DO's will face challenges in obtaining post-graduate training (and thus getting licensed) at all.

Whoever it was that claimed DO's would scream "discrimination" to high heaven and get their way (regarding banning DO graduates from the MD match) is totally oblivious to the current system which discriminates in EXACTLY that way against MD students for the DO match.

 

[stonewall22]

Personally, I'm kind of glad MD schools are increasing enrollment without increasing residency spots. A sizeable chunk of ACGME residencies are going to non-U.S. MD graduates, and I think this should be minimized. MD residency spots should go to domestic MD graduates. The increasing need for physicians should be met with a proportional increase of MD graduates, not by keeping the # of MD's constant and adding more DO schools. With increasing MD graduates, commercial overexpansion (relative to clinical and post-graduate training and with this new "for-profit" model) of DO's, it's likely that IMG's (first) and DO's (second) will face increasing difficulty gaining allopathic residencies. This will no doubt force the AOA to start establishing solid post-graduate training for its graduates. Otherwise DO's will face challenges in obtaining post-graduate training (and thus getting licensed) at all.

Whoever it was that claimed DO's would scream "discrimination" to high heaven and get their way (regarding banning DO graduates from the MD match) is totally oblivious to the current system which discriminates in EXACTLY that way against MD students for the DO match.

Have you ever known am IMG? Most of them are pretty good doctors.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Have you ever known am IMG? Most of them are pretty good doctors.

Also awesome doctors in their country of origin (for FMGs), which would be irresponsible to pull them away from. And regarding IMGs, I'm sure many are, and I know several and come to think of it, in my own anecdotal experience I don't know of any bad IMG doctors. But frankly, that has little to do with it. It has to do with supporting a training model for physicians that doesn't rely on offshore schools to produce physicians for us, whether they're FMGs or IMGs.

 

[Taurus]

Also awesome doctors in their country of origin (for FMGs), which would be irresponsible to pull them away from. And regarding IMGs, I'm sure many are, and I know several and come to think of it, in my own anecdotal experience I don't know of any bad IMG doctors. But frankly, that has little to do with it. It has to do with supporting a training model for physicians that doesn't rely on offshore schools to produce physicians for us, whether they're FMGs or IMGs.

Kinda reminds me of

 

[JeffLebowski]

Kinda reminds me of

Fo sho.

We should wean the DO's & IMGs off the ACGME teat and hold ourselves accountable to fill our own spots and enable the DO residency model to serve its clear purpose: to fill DO programs with DO students (excluding MD students). Either we need to have MD's fill MD spots and DO's fill DO spots or have one big match and let the chips fall where they may. But the current system is inconsistent, unbalanced, and unhealthy.

 

[DOinMS]

Do you really expect the AOA to take an active role in (1) increasing the number of osteopathic residencies - a good example is that there are only TWO med-peds programs - TWO!!!!!, and (2) increase the quality of the existing programs? There seem to be more important issues for the AOA such as making sure DOs are mentioned on television as often as MDs. Is this really what our dues are going towards?

 

[JeffLebowski]

Do you really expect the AOA to take an active role in (1) increasing the number of osteopathic residencies - a good example is that there are only TWO med-peds programs - TWO!!!!!, and (2) increase the quality of the existing programs? There seem to be more important issues for the AOA such as making sure DOs are mentioned on television as often as MDs. Is this really what our dues are going towards?

That's the point.

Balancing things out by closing off MD residencies to DO students would force them to do that. You can't just keep graduating students with no place to train, especially since the MD community has wised-up and is increasing enrollment and thus will increasingly displace DO applicants out of ACGME positions (and of course since DO schools are also increasing enrollment). More MDs means more DOs out of positions and even more IMGs out of positions. You guys have a safety net - DO residencies. It's criminal to produce graduates without supplying adequate post-graduate training.

 

[jp104]

You can't just keep graduating students with no place to train.... It's criminal to produce graduates without supplying adequate post-graduate training.

Amen to this. The AOA should implement the following:

1) Moratorium on school expansion
2) Re-review and kill for profit education
3) Boost osteopathic GME
4) Combine the matches and open DO residencies to MD candidates

Unfortunately it'd be like herding cats to get them to do this and of course we have more pressing issues like worrying about a museum in DC

 

[Old_Mil]

It seems like this would be pretty far down the road, no? more for-profit schools would actually have to start for this to happen AND they would have to start graduating enough classes with lower standards...probably at least 10 years more even if a few of these schools started popping up out of the blue--

While for profit medical schools certainly could be the straw that breaks the camels back, even rampant expansion of branch campuses (say an LECOM with 10 branch campuses instead of 4 putting out 2000 DOs a year instead of 1000) might have the same effect.

not the greatest time to start a business with the economy how it is...thoughts?

I can't think of a better time to start a for-profit medical school than a down economy. You can peddle the dream to hundreds of college students at once. Who cares if they fail out after a couple of years or graduate and can't find a residency - you've got their $70,000-$150,000 right? This is the sort of rampant expansion of questionable medical schools that's gone on overseas...one of the reasons why it's much harder for an FMG to come to America now than it was 40 years ago.

Heck, you could even advertise in the Delta Airlines in flight magazine for students...right next to WVCOM, which already is.

 

[Dissected]

I can't think of a better time to start a for-profit medical school than a down economy. You can peddle the dream to hundreds of college students at once.

...Do you know how hard it is to maintain, much less START a business that requires brand new expen$ive facilities with how the real estate/property market is right now? Who cares if they are gonna make money down the road, I can't forsee any banks very happy about shelling out the cash to start a brand new medical school. The ones starting up right now really dodged the bullet by having their facilities up and running already.

Who cares if they fail out after a couple of years or graduate and can't find a residency - you've got their $70,000-$150,000 right?

I really don't forsee this happening...not for a while anyway. But stranger things have happened I guess

 

[Squiggy]

Aren't AOA residencies allowed to be unfunded? I think when many DO grads aren't able to land residencies, the profession will do something about it. It would be terrible for their image if some grads are completely screwed over without a residency.

Right now DO's are using a lot of ACGME residencies but if worst comes to worst, there should be new DO residencies that open up, albeit probably pretty crappy ones; if the funding is tight, they could make them unfunded.

 

[Old_Mil]

...Do you know how hard it is to maintain, much less START a business that requires brand new expen$ive facilities with how the real estate/property market is right now? Who cares if they are gonna make money down the road, I can't forsee any banks very happy about shelling out the cash to start a brand new medical school. The ones starting up right now really dodged the bullet by having their facilities up and running already.

Maybe. Maybe not. I could see an established osteopathic medical school looking for a small college that had fallen on hard times and buying out the facilities. A bank has to know that the revenue stream from a medical school vs a small community college is going to be astronomically higher. With the property market trending markedly down, I would imagine that some good deals would be available in real estate right now (to the tune of 30%-40% below asking price).

With branch campuses, all you have to do is arrange the schedule differently so you can shuttle PhDs from one site to another to lecture. The unit cost of adding additional students becomes quite low so long as you only "crowd" the facilities a bit. The same thing holds for expanding class size at a given institution as well.

 

[Brodiewankenobi]

Just got done posting in some pre-osteo forums and apparently a ton of pre-meds do not seem to think that RVU's model is a problem. Current osteopathic physicians and students need to voice their concerns to prospective students and make them aware of the issues. Although I am going to an allopathic school next year, I have worked with a bunch of talented osteopathic physicians and would hate to see the profession turn to a for-profit model. Plus if these programs do prove to be popular it may be only a matter of time before we see for-profit allo programs.

 

[TUNCOM]

What is the difference between a "for-profit" medical school VS. a "non-profit" medical school whose president takes out $500,000 a year salary - other than the tax breaks?

 

[DrMidlife]

What is the difference between a "for-profit" medical school VS. a "non-profit" medical school whose president takes out $500,000 a year salary - other than the tax breaks?

Sizable salaries are inherent in any large, functional organization.

A duty to generate profit for stockholders is only found in a for-profit organization. That duty overrides any social responsibility in the organization. Ie Enron, AIG, Lehman, Merrill Lynch, shall I go on?