Thanks for nothing, surgery

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Dammit, all I was trying to say is that internists do manage surgical issues in some way 😛



Well, I definitely had to Google Mitrofanoff, but I would also hope someone reviewing the past surgical history might google that as well, or a Ladd's.


And the other RLQ pain in kids that I've seen before was mesenteric adenitis, but that's about it.

I agree that internists see surgical issues all the time. And, in relation to that, anybody who has done subspecialty rotations know that specialists see a large number of BS consults for every legitimate issue they address.

It doesn't have to be surgery...it could be derm, cardiology, urology, etc....a lot of time and money could be saved if the primary care doc was better educated on what can be simply handled and what needs to be referred. In my situation, an example would be a PCP who sends every patient that complains of "hemorrhoids" to the colorectal surgeon.

So, for that reason and a hundred others, rotations in general surgery are essential to a well-rounded medical education, regardless of the student's specialty choice. It is higher education after all. If all we wanted to do was memorize the minutia of our chosen specialized field, we should just skip the MD and go to trade school.

As for me grilling you about diverticulitis, I was just taking the opportunity to be devil's advocate. It's important to question conventional surgical wisdom, and not take your attending's habits/bias at face value.
 
I agree that internists see surgical issues all the time. And, in relation to that, anybody who has done subspecialty rotations know that specialists see a large number of BS consults for every legitimate issue they address.

It doesn't have to be surgery...it could be derm, cardiology, urology, etc....a lot of time and money could be saved if the primary care doc was better educated on what can be simply handled and what needs to be referred. In my situation, an example would be a PCP who sends every patient that complains of "hemorrhoids" to the colorectal surgeon.

So, for that reason and a hundred others, rotations in general surgery are essential to a well-rounded medical education, regardless of the student's specialty choice. It is higher education after all. If all we wanted to do was memorize the minutia of our chosen specialized field, we should just skip the MD and go to trade school.

As for me grilling you about diverticulitis, I was just taking the opportunity to be devil's advocate. It's important to question conventional surgical wisdom, and not take your attending's habits/bias at face value.
In regard to your diverticulitis post, are you saying we shouldn't follow suit and accept after 2 cases of diverticulitis it is time for surgery? Of course, after weighing the pros/cons for the patient and survivability in the OR.
 
Finally, by your logic, it's a waste of time for people going into pathology to do ANY clinical rotations. After all, they're never going to do it again, so why make them? Why make future pediatricians do adult IM rotations, when everything they need to know about general medicine they could learn just as well on the peds floors? Why make future anesthesia residents do a psych rotation? etc.

This would be my argument, yes. I think that the reason we all go to the same medical school is that medical school was designed for a time when we were mostly all the same type of doctor (or at least we all had the option to go into general practice). Now that even general practice has its own specific residency I think that concept of knowledge being basic to the entire medical profession is an anachronism. If I could redesign the system from the ground up I would replace medical school with schools that led into specific residencies: pediatrics schools, radiology schools, surgery schools, etc. There really is no reason for a future pathologist to be doiing most of what we're doing. Sincee that's never going to happen I think a reasonable compromise would be to significantly shorten rotations like surgery and OB and give students more elective time to focus on their own fields.
 
In regard to your diverticulitis post, are you saying we shouldn't follow suit and accept after 2 cases of diverticulitis it is time for surgery? Of course, after weighing the pros/cons for the patient and survivability in the OR.

The decision to perform sigmoidectomy should be based mostly on the severity of symptoms rather than the number of attacks. The most important distinguishment is between complicated and uncomplicated diverticulitis.

Once you learn more about it, though, it gets pretty complicated. Even if a patient has a complicated attack, they have a low chance of developing an equally bad or worse recurrence (1st attack usually is the worst attack), so they don't necessarily need their colon out.

The most important thing for primary care docs to know is that if a patient is diagnosed and treated for "diverticulitis," then they should get CT confirmation of the diagnosis. Plenty of other things will masquerade as an infected sigmoid. Also, it's very important for the patient to undergo colonoscopy once the colon had cooled off. This helps assess severity of disease, and also rules out other players (cancer, IBD, etc). A perforated tic and a perforated cancer can look exactly the same both clinically and radiographically.

This would be my argument, yes. I think that the reason we all go to the same medical school is that medical school was designed for a time when we were mostly all the same type of doctor (or at least we all had the option to go into general practice). Now that even general practice has its own specific residency I think that concept of knowledge being basic to the entire medical profession is an anachronism. If I could redesign the system from the ground up I would replace medical school with schools that led into specific residencies: pediatrics schools, radiology schools, surgery schools, etc. There really is no reason for a future pathologist to be doiing most of what we're doing. Sincee that's never going to happen I think a reasonable compromise would be to significantly shorten rotations like surgery and OB and give students more elective time to focus on their own fields.

That sort of makes sense, but it's a slippery slope. Exactly how much does a doctor need to know beyond his chosen field? Don't you think rotations in other specialties would augment his understanding of his chosen field? Maybe we should all just become specialized nurses.

As a colorectal surgeon, shouldn't I understand the medical treatment of IBD, and the chemo for colon Ca, and be able to interpret radiology?

I can tell you that I benefit from my diverse education on a daily basis. Surgery is not all scalpels and retractors. I have to diagnose psychiatric disease, take care of pregnant patients, differentiate gynecologic from colonic pathology, diagnose stroke/MI/PE/pneumonia/etc, manage hypertension/diabetes/CAD/hypothyroid/etc, and take care of patients age 0-100.

Also, one of the most important parts of third year is tasting the different specialties and seeing which one is for you. Most students change their mind about specialties, often after experiencing things first hand. If we had a system where students had to choose a specialty up front, we'd have a lot more unhappy doctors.

I guess my point is that you're just plain wrong. Please share with us, though, which specialty you have chosen and when you decided it was for you, and how you made that decision. It will help me elaborate on how wrong you are.
 
I think the surgery rotation should be made with the option to have less OR time and more ward/clinic/consult time for those who are pretty sure they want non-surgical specialties. I think learning surgical management is VERY important for any doctor, but being in the OR isn't necessarily so. One day a week max is enough. For some schools, it's like almost every single day for like 4-6 weeks. That's not helpful at all for people who don't want to go into surgery.
 
That sort of makes sense, but it's a slippery slope. Exactly how much does a doctor need to know beyond his chosen field? Don't you think rotations in other specialties would augment his understanding of his chosen field? Maybe we should all just become specialized nurses.
We ARE specialized, that's my point. We are in a system where physicians, for very sound ethical and legal reasons, basicaly never go beyond their scope of practice. Pediatricians never manage a 'simple' SVD, Internal medicinee doctors never do open abdominal prodcedures, surgeons don't act as attendings in NICUs, etc. A physician should know exactly as much as he needs to know to do his job.

This has become a real issue in medicine. Take, for example, an Orthopaedic surgeon who speciaized in replacing hips. That is all he does. What's the training pipeline for that? 4 years of ccompletely irrelevant undergrad, followed by 4 years of mostly irrelevant medical school, followed by 5 years of mostly irrelevant general orthopaediics (can't replace hips without learning the full spectrum of spine surgery, after all), followed by 3 years of learning the full spectrum of joint replacements. To do a career based entirely around one procedure and a very algorithmic pre-operative work up. We are swallowing up decades of physicians lives, severely impacting their emathy through years of abuse, and driving the cost of their sevices through the roof based on an outdated and romatic notion of what consitutes a total doctor. Really?

BTW since you metioned nurses, this is why the nurses are eating our profession alive. They're able to undersell us by having a faster, cheaper training pipeline with less exposure to superfulous material. If we don't adapt we are eventually goiing to lose a lot of market share.

As a colorectal surgeon, shouldn't I understand the medical treatment of IBD, and the chemo for colon Ca, and be able to interpret radiology?
To what extent do you need to be able to do these things? Do you commonly override the gastroenterologists medical management plan for IBD? Do you ever shake your head and change the oncologists chemotherapy for colon cancer? Do you really disregard the radiologist's read of those KUBs and CTs? And if you do need to know how to do these things, is the most efficient way to learn them to rotate through general rotations in Medcine, Oncology, and Radiology? What's the incidience of cases and films relevant to your profession on those rotations? For example on radiology, how many head MRIs should you reasonably need to sit through to see one film relevant to your own profession?

Also, one of the most important parts of third year is tasting the different specialties and seeing which one is for you. Most students change their mind about specialties, often after experiencing things first hand. If we had a system where students had to choose a specialty up front, we'd have a lot more unhappy doctors.
This is a more intereting argument: third year as a sort of protracted career fair. It might be a good argument for not letting third years decide, right off the bat, what they want to do. However it doesn't explain why so much emphasis is placed on some rotations rather than others. Do students really need 8 weeks of surgery to realize they hate the OR? Or 8 weeks of OB to know they hate L&D? I know I personally needed less than a day for each. If they do need 8 weeks, why do they only need 4 weeks to realize they do or don't like psych? Or neuro? And why can you be a medical school and offer no exposure at ,all to the ER, Anesthesiology, Pathology, Opthomology, Urology, Orthopaedics, Neurosurgery, radiology, neonatology, or any of the Medical, Pediatric, Obstetric, or Surgical subspecialties? If we really just want to expose everyone to everything, should we cut surgery down to a managable 2 weeks to make sure they can fit everything else in?
 
surgeons don't act as attendings in NICUs, etc.
Of course not, but a general surgeon in many places will be operating on children for basic general surgical pathology (appendicitis, trauma, hernias), so a month or two of pediatrics in medical school is hardly time wasted.

To what extent do you need to be able to do these things? Do you commonly override the gastroenterologists medical management plan for IBD? Do you ever shake your head and change the oncologists chemotherapy for colon cancer? Do you really disregard the radiologist's read of those KUBs and CTs?
We need to know when a GI consult is appropriate or not, and yes, we do ignore their recommendations at times. We definitely disregard the radiologist's read of imaging at times, because we're the ones who do the clinical correlation that they so frequently recommend. They're valuable for looking at portions of the imaging that we're less familiar with, but like I pointed out to someone else in a recent thread, there are some things that a surgical specialist is going to be more familiar with. We have one pancreatic surgeon, and he sees all of the patients with certain types of pathology, whereas our radiologists take turns reading those images. In the same time span, he sees more of the images than they do, and they he sees all of the intraoperative findings as well, which they never do.

And if you do need to know how to do these things, is the most efficient way to learn them to rotate through general rotations in Medcine, Oncology, and Radiology? What's the incidience of cases and films relevant to your profession on those rotations? For example on radiology, how many head MRIs should you reasonably need to sit through to see one film relevant to your own profession?
This was why I only spent one day on radiology looking at neuroimaging and a lot more days looking at CXRs and body CTs...

Do students really need 8 weeks of surgery to realize they hate the OR?
What about two months of medicine to realize I don't want to be an internist? Or 6 weeks of psych/neuro to realize I'll never do that? What should be required?
 
A physician should know exactly as much as he needs to know to do his job.

BTW since you metioned nurses, this is why the nurses are eating our profession alive. They're able to undersell us by having a faster, cheaper training pipeline with less exposure to superfulous material. If we don't adapt we are eventually goiing to lose a lot of market share.

If physician knowledge was limited solely to areas of a specialty practice, then medicine would be absolutely chaotic. The specialist's clinic and hospital practice would be overwhelmed with consults for simple problems (e.g. GI docs seeing 30 inpatients a day for diarrhea or constipation consults).

The level of communication would be dangerously low, since the one hand would not know what the other hand was doing. If doctors did not have a basic understanding of other specialties, then a multi-disciplinary approach to a complicated patient would be horribly uncoordinated, redundant, and dangerous.

As far as nurses go, the way to beat them is not to join them. It's to provide superior care. We shouldn't reduce our knowledge on subjects so we can crank out practitioners in a more expedient fashion.

To what extent do you need to be able to do these things? Do you commonly override the gastroenterologists medical management plan for IBD? Do you ever shake your head and change the oncologists chemotherapy for colon cancer? Do you really disregard the radiologist's read of those KUBs and CTs? And if you do need to know how to do these things, is the most efficient way to learn them to rotate through general rotations in Medcine, Oncology, and Radiology?

Yes, I do all those things. If I did not anticipate the treatments of my specialists, and change therapy when appropriate, some patients would never be fit for surgery (e.g. drugs like steroids, immunosuppressants, avastin, ASA/plavix/coumadin). And, these docs can misdiagnose or over/undertreat things just like I can. Having well-trained complimentary specialists leads to checks and balances.

As for chemo, it's often the surgeon who decides if the patient even sees an oncologist. As for radiology, I disagree with a radiologist on a daily basis. Their reads are often vague and purposefully non-committal (CYA medicine). Just yesterday I saw a patient in consult for a "colo-vesicular fistula per radiology" which was quite obviously an anterior fistula to the preperitoneal space secondary to a lap inguinal hernia repair. If I had taken the radiology read at face value, the patient would have undergone an unnecessary surgery.

Anyway, I understand where you're coming from, as medical education has many redundant and low-yield aspects, but there's not a simple solution. I agree that certain rotations could be shortened, and the rotations could be structured in a more balanced format (clinic/OR/ER/consults). However, the longer rotations are also useful, as someone may initially love surgery after 2 weeks (common), but learn after 4-6 that the work is simply too much.

It's a double-edged sword.
 
I'd argue that we're getting insufficient training in the different specialties in medical school, not too much, with the loss of the rotating internship. Part of the reason you get these inappropriate consults is because of lack of knowledge. Part of being a physician is having training in all these other areas and detailed knowledge of the pathophysiology. Otherwise, what separates you from being a technician? If you want vocational work, technical college was probably a better choice.
 
I'd argue that we're getting insufficient training in the different specialties in medical school, not too much, with the loss of the rotating internship. Part of the reason you get these inappropriate consults is because of lack of knowledge. Part of being a physician is having training in all these other areas and detailed knowledge of the pathophysiology. Otherwise, what separates you from being a technician? If you want vocational work, technical college was probably a better choice.

About 2/3rd of MD's I talk to say that medical training is essentially a trade school and that you really realize this when your 50 and have no marketable skills outside the realm of practice you niched yourself into.
 
About 2/3rd of MD's I talk to say that medical training is essentially a trade school and that you really realize this when your 50 and have no marketable skills outside the realm of practice you niched yourself into.

I mean that's not really true, since you have various branches you can go into (health policy, medical device, consulting, research, education, etc) avenues you wouldn't have as, for example, a scrub or radiology tech.
 
I mean that's not really true, since you have various branches you can go into (health policy, medical device, consulting, research, education, etc) avenues you wouldn't have as, for example, a scrub or radiology tech.

Not to mention that physician skills aren't exactly dime a dozen like other technical skills you can pick up from your garden variety trade school.
 
About 2/3rd of MD's I talk to say that medical training is essentially a trade school and that you really realize this when your 50 and have no marketable skills outside the realm of practice you niched yourself into.
Yeah, not really. You can't just lateral yourself into another specialty in a day the way a PA could (obviously, going from ortho to cardiac will involve a lot of on-the-job training, but no formal schooling), but your options within a specialty are pretty significant.

What does happen is that a lot of physicians continue narrowing their specialty field until at age 50-60, they're an orthopedic surgeon doing only shoulder arthroscopy or a colorectal surgeon just doing Crohn's.
 
The problem is that medical education is still based on the Flexner report, which is outdated by 100 years and long overdue for a revision.

Since that time, myriad medical advances like imaging, the discovery of DNA, and various other things have changed the way medicine is practiced. Our current rotational structure, with major emphasis on primary care-related disciplines like obstetrics and pediatrics, is not congruent with current medical practice or the trend of superspecialization.
 
We definitely disregard the radiologist's read of imaging at times, because we're the ones who do the clinical correlation that they so frequently recommend.


Many of the rads reports at my place end like this:

These findings, in the correct clinical setting, may indicate [insert pathology]. Clinical correlation recommended.
 
Many of the rads reports at my place end like this:

These findings, in the correct clinical setting, may indicate [insert pathology]. Clinical correlation recommended.
And then we get a consult from the guy who completely ignores the fact that it was said in a specific context....:laugh:

gall bladder thickened? that can only be cholecystitis! consult surgery!
 
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