The 35+ Threshold?

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[Abstractions]

A 34 won't hold you back from top 20's, but having an "average" (with respect to other areas) application will.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

From what I understand after learning a lot from this site, top 20 schools like people who are productive researchers, but they also select for candidates who are likely to become future leaders in medicine. Life experiences/EC's that demonstrate that capacity for leadership, whether medically-related or not, will make candidates more appealing to top 20 schools. "Average" applications, not so much.

 

[C@lidoc]

I have been accepted to 5 top 20 schools so far and waiting on 3 more. My MCAT was below 35 but imo way above EC. I also have a friend at Harvard Med that got in with a 34. MCAT scores alone will not get you in.

 

[edgerock24]

Only on SDN will somebody actually consider retaking a 34.


Your score is great. Relax.

 

[gyngyn]

A 34 MCAT will not keep you out of any school in the country.
The rest of your application will.

 

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[lmn]

I realized that a 34 will not keep someone out of top 20 med schools. I guess I should phrase it in a slightly different way: the way that people talk about this gives me the impression that there is, for example, a bigger difference in admission chances between a 34 and a 35 than a 37 and a 38.

Very insignificant. The rest of the app is what would let you get in or get rejected from schools. You only have ground to lose retaking a 34.

 

[TREDWISE]

I realized that a 34 will not keep someone out of top 20 med schools. I guess I should phrase it in a slightly different way: the way that people talk about this gives me the impression that there is, for example, a bigger difference in admission chances between a 34 and a 35 than a 37 and a 38.

Why is everyone saying OP shouldn't retake the MCAT. She never said she wanted to.

The reason people talk about 35+ may be that the differences between the different scores become very slim in terms of percentile once you get past that threshold. However, like others have said, the MCAT score only gets you in the door. The rest of your app will make or break you.

 

[WRL]

The reason people talk about 35+ may be that the differences between the different scores become very slim in terms of percentile once you get past that threshold. However, like others have said, the MCAT score only gets you in the door. The rest of your app will make or break you.

Former Stanford Adcom told me, in fewer words, the same concept except starting at 34

 

[Mad Jack]

I just got my MCAT score back and it seems like many of the top 20 Med schools might be out of the question with my score. (I got a 34 and the rest of my application is average but not very strong).

There is something I've always been quite curious about. People (sdn, my pre health advisor) talk about the 35+ threshold a lot. Do med schools actually screen with that score in mind? Is a 34 really that different from a 35?

There is very little difference between a 34 and a 35.

 

[mimelim]

There is no difference between a 34 and a 35.

I fixed your post for you.

As with almost everything with regards to medical school admissions... Is what you are saying (or others for that matters) logical? Does it make any sense? If the answer is no, then it is likely false.

 

[JPSmyth]

I fixed your post for you.

As with almost everything with regards to medical school admissions... Is what you are saying (or others for that matters) logical? Does it make any sense? If the answer is no, then it is likely false.

I don't think it's really too farfetched of an idea. Schools automatically screen out applications below x GPA / x MCAT don't they? Granted a 34 is still high, some schools have an average of 36 I thought? So maybe they only want to screen for applications that are 35 or better. (Theoretically)

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't think it's really too farfetched of an idea. Schools automatically screen out applications below x GPA / x MCAT don't they? Granted a 34 is still high, some schools have an average of 36 I thought? So maybe they only want to screen for applications that are 35 or better. (Theoretically)

They don't screen like that- your screen sets your lowest bar and rejects low tier applicants. You wouldn't want to reject everyone with a 34 if your class average is a 36, as many of your applicants will fall in the 33-39 range overall and you'd be cutting out some good applicants on the low end.

 

[Areopagus]

I don't think it's really too farfetched of an idea. Schools automatically screen out applications below x GPA / x MCAT don't they? Granted a 34 is still high, some schools have an average of 36 I thought? So maybe they only want to screen for applications that are 35 or better. (Theoretically)

If the class average is 36, screening for 35+ will not get you an average of 36. Come on man.

 

[mimelim]

I don't think it's really too farfetched of an idea. Schools automatically screen out applications below x GPA / x MCAT don't they? Granted a 34 is still high, some schools have an average of 36 I thought? So maybe they only want to screen for applications that are 35 or better. (Theoretically)

Then you need to do some basic reading on logic, critical analysis and medical school admissions. No school in the country automatically screens out people with a GPA of 3.2 or an MCAT below 30. There are people with sub 34 MCAT scores at every single medical school in the country.

 

[ConsultantMD]

My take on this is... think about your practice scores and how those may have varied, schools have to understand that a single score represents just one day of a morning/afternoon performance. You might have done a little better, or worse. I think people say 35+ because that is around the top 5%tile.

It's just like saying "top 20"... is there a big difference between #20 and #21? or even #20 and #30 for that matter? Some people love lists and rankings, but it's all just a construct... you have to take a step back.

Congrats on your score and good luck!

 

[caffeinemia]

sounds like a perfectly okay MCAT to me! But if you're worried about the rest of the application, hire my writing practice to advise you on your statement and EC descriptions! We're pros at it!

 

[Goro]

It's a great score and a 34 is in striking distance of a lot of school's median score for acceptees, like, say, Pitt.

Don't count on your MCAT to save you if the rest of your app is weak. Academically, tens of thousands of applicants are clones of each other.

I just got my MCAT score back and it seems like many of the top 20 Med schools might be out of the question with my score. (I got a 34 and the rest of my application is average but not very strong).

There is something I've always been quite curious about. People (sdn, my pre health advisor) talk about the 35+ threshold a lot. Do med schools actually screen with that score in mind? Is a 34 really that different from a 35?

 

[caffeinemia]

It's a great score and a 34 is in striking distance of a lot of school's median score for acceptees, like, say, Pitt.

Don't count on your MCAT to save you if the rest of your app is weak. Academically, tens of thousands of applicants are clones of each other.

I do believe that's a subtle endorsement for my services. Find someone who can help you stand out on the only part of your application in which you can sell yourself with 100% image control. 🙂.

 

[Psai]

There's no magically cut off line lol
grades and mcat are to make sure that you can handle the material. Top schools have stratospheric scores because they can afford to be choosy

Everyone wants to go to a top school but if you're an average applicant you have to be realistic

 

[lmn]

I don't think it's really too farfetched of an idea. Schools automatically screen out applications below x GPA / x MCAT don't they? Granted a 34 is still high, some schools have an average of 36 I thought? So maybe they only want to screen for applications that are 35 or better. (Theoretically)

So you're saying for a class of ~150, you expect pretty much every single person to have a 35, 36, or 37?

 

[ImmunoLove]

34 is great. The MCATs will not hinder you. Apply away (based on the rest of your app). Good luck!

 

[JPSmyth]

So you're saying for a class of ~150, you expect pretty much every single person to have a 35, 36, or 37?

No I understand that an average of 36 means there will be scores ranging all over the place... I was just saying theoretically some MCATs aren't high enough to beat a screen. a 34 definitely is, but for example if I'm applying to UMich with a 30, my application might never see the light of day

But also, from what I see posted on here and on MDApps, there are a TON of people who apply to top schools with scores of 36, 37, 38, 39

 

[pharmolu]

But also, from what I see posted on here and on MDApps, there are a TON of people who apply to top schools with scores of 36, 37, 38, 39

Trust me, no matter what score you get, you will be saying the same thing. I got a 37, and I cant help to think of all the people who got 38, 39 and 40+. As everyone else said, just make sure every other point of your application is on point, apply broadly, and you should be fine.

 

[shtumpa]

delete

 

[JimmyB123]

So you're saying for a class of ~150, you expect pretty much every single person to have a 35, 36, or 37?

Use MSAR to figure it out

 

[Ace Khalifa]

Who cares what MCAT score you or anyone else had once you're all in med school? I'm certainly not going to ask people what they got and not going to reveal mine unless someone persistently asks me.

 

[lmn]

Use MSAR to figure it out

What? Did you even read what I was responding to and what I wrote?

 

[JimmyB123]

What? Did you even read what I was responding to and what I wrote?

Oops just saw what you were responding too. I misread I misread! Yay for ppl that understand what means and medians are

 

[NickNaylor]

Who cares what MCAT score you or anyone else had once you're all in med school? I'm certainly not going to ask people what they got and not going to reveal mine unless someone persistently asks me.

No one cares once you're in med school. The new fetish to be obsessed with becomes step 1.

 

[Doug Underhill]

The kids with the 40+ scores go to the top schools, and we know their average is 38 or 37. What does that tell you about the lower end of their students?

 

[mcloaf]

No I understand that an average of 36 means there will be scores ranging all over the place... I was just saying theoretically some MCATs aren't high enough to beat a screen. a 34 definitely is, but for example if I'm applying to UMich with a 30, my application might never see the light of day

But also, from what I see posted on here and on MDApps, there are a TON of people who apply to top schools with scores of 36, 37, 38, 39

A 30 will absolutely see the light of day at Michigan and any other top school.

 

[amad01]

A 30 will absolutely see the light of day at Michigan and any other top school.

If URM or an astronaut...

 

[mcloaf]

If URM or an astronaut...

I think you guys are conflating "see the light of day" with "have a good chance". There are still enough compelling applicants in the low 30's high 20's range that even the most selective schools won't automatically toss those applications in the trash, but they won't keep most of them around after the first cut either.

 

[JPSmyth]

I think you guys are conflating "see the light of day" with "have a good chance". There are still enough compelling applicants in the low 30's high 20's range that even the most selective schools won't automatically toss those applications in the trash, but they won't keep most of them around after the first cut either.

With a 30, unless your first EC listed is olympic gold medalist or former professional athlete or 16 first-author publications or something crazy like that, its getting tossed after about 15 seconds

 

[mimelim]

With a 30, unless your first EC listed is olympic gold medalist or former professional athlete or 16 first-author publications or something crazy like that, its getting tossed after about 15 seconds

Based on what exactly are you making this kind of assertion?

Nobody is disputing that a 30 will be difficult to sell at the top schools. But, the concept that you won't be considered is just plain wrong.

 

[johnnytest]

32 MCAT with acceptance to a top 20 that has median MCAT of 37 as reported on MSAR. It's possible. I understand your worries and believe me I had them too but if the rest of your app is strong then you have a chance.

 

[mcloaf]

With a 30, unless your first EC listed is olympic gold medalist or former professional athlete or 16 first-author publications or something crazy like that, its getting tossed after about 15 seconds

I'm not sure what experience you have as a premed that qualifies you to correct current and former students at these schools about their admissions policies. Nobody is disagreeing that a 30 puts you at a disadvantage, but it's also not as insurmountable as you're making it seem.

 

[Goro]

100% agree with my learned colleague. Having a 30 MCAT score is competitive for at least 20 MD schools, off the top of my head, not even including one's state schools. Then throw in all 30+ DO schools on top of that.

Based on what exactly are you making this kind of assertion?

Nobody is disputing that a 30 will be difficult to sell at the top schools. But, the concept that you won't be considered is just plain wrong.

 

[JPSmyth]

I'm not sure what experience you have as a premed that qualifies you to correct current and former students at these schools about their admissions policies. Nobody is disagreeing that a 30 puts you at a disadvantage, but it's also not as insurmountable as you're making it seem.

I don't have any experience that qualifies me to make any claims about admissions, I'm just speculating (based on whatever data exists online, and MDApps). But I'm just trying to make sense of it. If there are 8,000 applicants for 500 interview spots, and your MCAT is not that great, what's going to make an adcom pick your app out of a pile, unless you have amazing ECs? When I'm sure there are thousands of applicants with way better numbers, and similar research/shadowing/volunteering/leadership. I know that nothing is impossible in admissions, but it is just highly unlikely is all I'm saying. There's always underdog stories about people getting in to schools way out of their league numbers wise, but those must be one in a thousand?

@johnnytest that's awesome, did you have really impressive ECs?

 

[efle]

As with almost everything with regards to medical school admissions... Does it make any sense? If the answer is no, then it is likely false.

So, what's the logic behind maintaining a 99th percentile median class MCAT when anything past the high 20's predicts success? Why does a third of a point decrease in GPA drastically impact your odds when the average GPA between undergrads can differ by twice that?

Maybe a one point difference on your MCAT won't make or break your app, but on the numbers side of admissions it seems like once that gap becomes a few points there's plenty of true nonsensical behavior. To poorly paraphrase something I read from LizzyM or gyngyn on here, it makes no freaking sense in terms of percentile yet schools view a 39 much differently than a 35.

 

[mimelim]

So, what's the logic behind maintaining a 99th percentile median class MCAT when anything past the high 20's predicts success? Why does a third of a point decrease in GPA drastically impact your odds when the average GPA between undergrads can differ by twice that?

Maybe a one point difference on your MCAT won't make or break your app, but on the numbers side of admissions it seems like once that gap becomes a few points there's plenty of true nonsensical behavior. To poorly paraphrase something I read from LizzyM or gyngyn on here, it makes no freaking sense in terms of percentile yet schools view a 39 much differently than a 35.

Define 'success'. If the bar is 'will be a good doctor', then yes, ensuring a class average of 35+ is a little silly. There aren't enough 'stand out' applicants each cycle to fill our medical schools. I'm talking about people that you pick up their CV and think, floor is good doctor, ceiling is unlimited. So, we snap up those people as best we can and then fill out the rest of our class with super safe, very smart students. And a third of a point decrease in GPA doesn't drastically change YOUR odds. People with better scores are statistically more likely to get in. But, for an individual case, that 32 vs 34 or that 3.6 vs 3.7 is not going to be what keeps you out of medical school. It is going to be everything else.

 

[efle]

Define 'success'. If the bar is 'will be a good doctor', then yes, ensuring a class average of 35+ is a little silly. There aren't enough 'stand out' applicants each cycle to fill our medical schools. I'm talking about people that you pick up their CV and think, floor is good doctor, ceiling is unlimited. So, we snap up those people as best we can and then fill out the rest of our class with super safe, very smart students. And a third of a point decrease in GPA doesn't drastically change YOUR odds. People with better scores are statistically more likely to get in. But, for an individual case, that 32 vs 34 or that 3.6 vs 3.7 is not going to be what keeps you out of medical school. It is going to be everything else.

I thought MCAT/GPA was not seen as a predictor of physician quality at all, but was meant to show the student could handle the academics of the medical education - that's why it's nonsense to give a 39 much preference over a 35, because both are way way into the safe zone for what is supposedly being demonstrated. So unless there is actually some other value placed on the MCAT (maybe schools trying to get students who will murder the step exams?) it still seems nonsensical to care about differences in score past the low 30's.

 

[gyngyn]

So unless there is actually some other value placed on the MCAT (maybe schools trying to get students who will murder the step exams?) it still seems nonsensical to care about differences in score past the low 30's.

Unless it took three tries to get there.

 

[amad01]

I thought MCAT/GPA was not seen as a predictor of physician quality at all, but was meant to show the student could handle the academics of the medical education - that's why it's nonsense to give a 39 much preference over a 35, because both are way way into the safe zone for what is supposedly being demonstrated. So unless there is actually some other value placed on the MCAT (maybe schools trying to get students who will murder the step exams?) it still seems nonsensical to care about differences in score past the low 30's.

perhaps you would suggest a pass/fail MCAT would be a better approach? The difference between a 35 and a 39 could be as little as 4 questions on a 144 question exam (2.77% difference). But a pass/fail MCAT would simply increase all the other random hoops to jump through.

 

[efle]

perhaps you would suggest a pass/fail MCAT would be a better approach? The difference between a 35 and a 39 could be as little as 4 questions on a 144 question exam (2.77% difference). But a pass/fail MCAT would simply increase all the other random hoops to jump through.

I don't mind the current system of scoring, more the inconsistency in what adcoms say the MCAT is being used for vs their behavior towards it. I think the same thing happens with step 1 scores and residency, with the test supposedly given to demonstrate competency/ability to pass but actually used to help identify top candidates by percentiles. If I were going to change anything it would be to weight the prereq GPA ~3x more than the MCAT because the latter is much shallower/easier, but I'm in the minority with that view.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

I don't mind the current system of scoring, more the inconsistency in what adcoms say the MCAT is being used for vs their behavior towards it. I think the same thing happens with step 1 scores and residency, with the test supposedly given to demonstrate competency/ability to pass but actually used to help identify top candidates by percentiles. If I were going to change anything it would be to weight the prereq GPA ~3x more than the MCAT because the latter is much shallower/easier, but I'm in the minority with that view.

No. GPA is too highly variable. You also go to a deflating school. Having GPA count more than MCAT wouldn't help you at all.

 

[amad01]

I don't mind the current system of scoring, more the inconsistency in what adcoms say the MCAT is being used for vs their behavior towards it. I think the same thing happens with step 1 scores and residency, with the test supposedly given to demonstrate competency/ability to pass but actually used to help identify top candidates by percentiles. If I were going to change anything it would be to weight the prereq GPA ~3x more than the MCAT because the latter is much shallower/easier, but I'm in the minority with that view.

pre-req GPA would be even worse because you can take classes at any school and with any professor. If we say that 35 is just as good as 39, how is that fair to the guy who worked for the 39 when he could've settled for the 35? None of it is going to ever be perfectly fair for anyone so just push through and do the best you can.

 

[efle]

No. GPA is too highly variable. You also go to a deflating school. Having GPA count more than MCAT wouldn't help you at all.

You get some constancy from having the same prereqs in the GPA, and you can compare applicants to others from the same institution to help with differences in grading/rigor/whatever. Ideally you'd standardize the coursework in a similar way to the AP system in high schools and then you can skip the per-college adjustments. Even if you did have to deal with comparing wildly variable GPAs, they're already doing exactly that and it's the lesser of two evils compared to the MCAT. A brief, shallow, practice dependent, one or two step multiple-freakin-choice exam is a pretty terrible thing to weight equally with years of much more in-depth and challenging problem solving. I wouldn't be affected by dialing up the GPA weight but this is what I think would be a better measure of ability, not the setup best for me or premeds like me.

pre-req GPA would be even worse because you can take classes at any school and with any professor. If we say that 35 is just as good as 39, how is that fair to the guy who worked for the 39 when he could've settled for the 35? None of it is going to ever be perfectly fair for anyone so just push through and do the best you can.

The adcoms on here have repeatedly stated that they care about the grade not the prof/school; I don't much agree with that view but they already compare GPAs as a major metric as if they were standardized, so I'm just suggesting weighting it more. I'm not complaining about fairness, it's actually going to help me a lot that med schools care so much about this stupid test. I just like my little pipe dreams about tweaking the system to what I think really demonstrates ability as a student.