The Bachelor of Science is a WASTE of time!!

[DrPush]

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Hi,

I am finishing up my last year of college as a biology major. Like anyone else who is reading this forum, I want to apply to medical school, get an MD, and practice medicine to help humanitarian communities. Being a biology major, I have to take all these classes that are a WASTE OF TIME. For example, Theological Philosophy, British Art, Oceanography, and Evolution. What do these classes got to do with being a doctor. Do not try to say that they make you a well-rounded person. They do not. I have had enough lower-division arts and humanities that made me a well-rounded person. If we take medical school level classes, medical schools do not recommend that for some reason. I am stuck in the middle of nowhere. I should of gone abroad to places like Australia or India to study medicine. They usually accept students right out of high school. No wonder we are getting all our specialists (cardiologists, neurologists, etc.) from international countries. They usually like to concentrate on one aspect of thier lives, rather than jumping from one subject area to another. I just wanted to ask, what is the purpose of a BS when our ultimate goal is to get an MD. Why not just get 90 semester units to study for the MCAT and then apply right away?

 

[IndyZX]

troll? im not that good at this yet.

 

[liverotcod]

It wouldn't take 90. Smart folk like you and me could probably get away with 30, 40 tops. For that matter, why bother with the MCAT? High school AP scores should certainly show adequate preparation for med school.

Another thing I hate is making people wait until they're 15 to start driving. That's probably why we have all these foreigners driving taxis in America, when we've got perfectly good teenagers that need jobs. The ones that aren't going to medical school, that is.

 

[Jmuhnie]

I think that requiring a 4 year degree prior to med-school entry is vital. There is a great deal of learning that occurs outside of the classroom. If I had gone straight to med school from high school...I would have missed out on some very enlightening experiences. I'm now in the same boat. I have 18 more hours to complete my degree. I've already been accepted as well. I'm not complaining about taking immunology, biology of cancer, human sexuality though...12 hours and I'm loving it. Have a good time while you can.

 

[CoverMe]

Hi,

I am finishing up my last year of college as a biology major. Like anyone else who is reading this forum, I want to apply to medical school, get an MD, and practice medicine to help humanitarian communities. Being a biology major, I have to take all these classes that are a WASTE OF TIME. For example, Theological Philosophy, British Art, Oceanography, and Evolution. What do these classes got to do with being a doctor. Do not try to say that they make you a well-rounded person. They do not. I have had enough lower-division arts and humanities that made me a well-rounded person. If we take medical school level classes, medical schools do not recommend that for some reason. I am stuck in the middle of nowhere. I should of gone abroad to places like Australia or India to study medicine. They usually accept students right out of high school. No wonder we are getting all our specialists (cardiologists, neurologists, etc.) from international countries. They usually like to concentrate on one aspect of thier lives, rather than jumping from one subject area to another. I just wanted to ask, what is the purpose of a BS when our ultimate goal is to get an MD. Why not just get 90 semester units to study for the MCAT and then apply right away?

Or, just skip it all, name yourself "DrPush" and call it a day.

OTOH, there are many classes that seem irritating wastes of time, we all can agree on that one. Go for it... get your 90, and move on.

 

[liverotcod]

troll? im not that good at this yet.

Well, the rest of his/her posts are not trollish, but I thought this one deserved a flame anyway.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

You should move to any other country, only the US seems to want a bachelors before a medical education.

 

[CoverMe]

Well, the rest of his/her posts are not trollish, but I thought this one deserved a flame anyway.

It didn't seem trollish at all... I can imagine that if I had known back when I was 18 that I wanted to go to medical school, I probably also would have had this question? As it is, i'm in a different sitch... i already have a non-science degree and i'm just finishing up the prereq's... so the pressure to take irritating classes is off.

 

[liverotcod]

It didn't seem trollish at all... I can imagine that if I had known back when I was 18 that I wanted to go to medical school, I probably also would have had this question? As it is, i'm in a different sitch... i already have a non-science degree and i'm just finishing up the prereq's... so the pressure to take irritating classes is off.

For some reason, the original post really set me off. Maybe it's because I've been taught to value learning for learning's sake. Is a BA as useless as a BS? Also, I think that the US concieves of a physician as a professional. To make med school a variety of trade school would be antithetical to this idea. We want our physicians to be deep thinkers and healers on more levels than just the physical. So I disagree with the statement that we don't achieve better "roundedness" by pursuing a BS or BA. I took classes in my senior year (Beowulf in the original, modern drama) that have definitely enriched my life.

I do kinda agree that higher-level classes in a subject that doesn't interest you are a bit of a waste. I just find that lots of subjects interest me.

 

[CoverMe]

For some reason, the original post really set me off. Maybe it's because I've been taught to value learning for learning's sake. Is a BA as useless as a BS? Also, I think that the US concieves of a physician as a professional. To make med school a variety of trade school would be antithetical to this idea. We want our physicians to be deep thinkers and healers on more levels than just the physical. So I disagree with the statement that we don't achieve better "roundedness" by pursuing a BS or BA. I took classes in my senior year (Beowulf in the original, modern drama) that have definitely enriched my life.

I do kinda agree that higher-level classes in a subject that doesn't interest you are a bit of a waste. I just find that lots of subjects interest me.

I **ABSOLUTELY** agree with you... I think that exposure to a wide range of ideas is beneficial and that actually obtaining a degree (whatever that degree may be) indicates a level of maturity and "stick-to-it-iveness" that obtaining the 90 units and scramming does not.

However, I achieved several somewhat extraordinary things when I was younger, because I headed straight for my goal and did not stop for anyone, and I have to be honest enough to recognize that drive in someone else.

The argument can be made, if "well roundedness" is the goal, that one might not be as good of a physician without a wide variety of experiences... and whether those experiences come in the form of Beowulf in the original, modern drama, or some other format, the result is the same.

 

[Fermata]

You'll have plenty of time to suffer later.

Take classes that interest you NOW.

 

[Mikhail]

May I ask you a question. Last time you went to a physician, how long did you talk to him? What did you talk to him about? Operas, museums, or theaters? May be politics...?
Most physicians do not spend more than 15 minutes on a patient these days. They would NEVER talk to except where you feel pain or the same kind of questions.
I agree with the first post. Medical school + residency +fellowship are a long way to go. If it were 2 years (like an associate degree) it would be more understandable.

For some reason, the original post really set me off. Maybe it's because I've been taught to value learning for learning's sake. Is a BA as useless as a BS? Also, I think that the US concieves of a physician as a professional. To make med school a variety of trade school would be antithetical to this idea. We want our physicians to be deep thinkers and healers on more levels than just the physical. So I disagree with the statement that we don't achieve better "roundedness" by pursuing a BS or BA. I took classes in my senior year (Beowulf in the original, modern drama) that have definitely enriched my life.

I do kinda agree that higher-level classes in a subject that doesn't interest you are a bit of a waste. I just find that lots of subjects interest me.

 

[CoverMe]

May I ask you a question. Last time you went to a physician, how long did you talk to him? What did you talk to him about? Operas, museums, or theaters? May be politics...?
Most physicians do not spend more than 15 minutes on a patient these days. They would NEVER talk to except where you feel pain or the same kind of questions.
I agree with the first post. Medical school + residency +fellowship are a long way to go. If it were 2 years (like an associate degree) it would be more understandable.

I'm not sure this is the point... no one expects physicians to accurately discuss operas any more than they expect a physician to understand the intricacies of running a McDonalds grill... the point is to have a broader depth of knowledge. The depth that one could get by going out into the world and living it, or condensing it and just paying a ton of money to read about it.

In the big scheme of things, the time it takes to get those extra 40 or so units (which makes me laugh, since i'm over 230 units now) is insignificant. Besides, it gives people time to get some things done... like volunteer and explore your options a little more fully.

 

[Fermata]

I'm not sure this is the point... no one expects physicians to accurately discuss operas any more than they expect a physician to understand the intricacies of running a McDonalds grill... the point is to have a broader depth of knowledge. The depth that one could get by going out into the world and living it, or condensing it and just paying a ton of money to read about it.

In the big scheme of things, the time it takes to get those extra 40 or so units (which makes me laugh, since i'm over 230 units now) is insignificant. Besides, it gives people time to get some things done... like volunteer and explore your options a little more fully.

Ahhh yes....but one less year of working as a physician means one more year until retirement.....which means one more year until you can sleep/fish/play banjo all day.
😀 😀

 

[CoverMe]

Ahhh yes....but one less year of working as a physician means one more year until retirement.....which means one more year until you can sleep/fish/play banjo all day.
😀 😀

Well I got me a fine wife I got me a fiddle
When the sun?s comin? up I got cakes on the griddle
Life ain?t nothin? but a funy funny riddle
Thank God I?m a country boy

When the work?s all done and the sun?s settlin? low
I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow
The kids are asleep so I keep it kinda low
Thank God I?m a country boy

I?d play ??sally goodin??? all day if I could
But the lord and my wife wouldn?t take it very good
So I fiddle when I could, work when I should
Thank God I?m a country boy


What the HELL does it mean, when your post evokes a memory of a JOHN DENVER song?!?!?! WTF!!?!? I remember my mom playing this RECORD on the stereo... remember the stereo's that were a huge piece of furniture?? You could stack lots of records and the stereo would play them sequentially.

 

[Fermata]

Well I got me a fine wife I got me a fiddle
When the sun?s comin? up I got cakes on the griddle
Life ain?t nothin? but a funy funny riddle
Thank God I?m a country boy

When the work?s all done and the sun?s settlin? low
I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow
The kids are asleep so I keep it kinda low
Thank God I?m a country boy

I?d play ??sally goodin??? all day if I could
But the lord and my wife wouldn?t take it very good
So I fiddle when I could, work when I should
Thank God I?m a country boy


What the HELL does it mean, when your post evokes a memory of a JOHN DENVER song?!?!?! WTF!!?!? I remember my mom playing this RECORD on the stereo... remember the stereo's that were a huge piece of furniture?? You could stack lots of records and the stereo would play them sequentially.

Hehe. You obviously havn't met many fiddlers......

"Grandpa was a fiddler.....he loved his violin........but women, cards, and whiskey all made sweet music to him....sweet music to him....."

Btw, banjo players and fiddle players tend to have different personalities....I'm not sure why this happens.

 

[eralza]

Hi,

I am finishing up my last year of college as a biology major. Like anyone else who is reading this forum, I want to apply to medical school, get an MD, and practice medicine to help humanitarian communities. Being a biology major, I have to take all these classes that are a WASTE OF TIME. For example, Theological Philosophy, British Art, Oceanography, and Evolution. What do these classes got to do with being a doctor. Do not try to say that they make you a well-rounded person. They do not. I have had enough lower-division arts and humanities that made me a well-rounded person. If we take medical school level classes, medical schools do not recommend that for some reason. I am stuck in the middle of nowhere. I should of gone abroad to places like Australia or India to study medicine. They usually accept students right out of high school. No wonder we are getting all our specialists (cardiologists, neurologists, etc.) from international countries. They usually like to concentrate on one aspect of thier lives, rather than jumping from one subject area to another. I just wanted to ask, what is the purpose of a BS when our ultimate goal is to get an MD. Why not just get 90 semester units to study for the MCAT and then apply right away?

Alright - seething over this post just a bit, so I had to vent.
Give me a break! You act as though medicine is just another vo-tech field, where you can get your learn how to fix the human carburator and get your certificate to practice. As an older applicant (36), I have eventually come to realize that everything you learn can, and usually does, have relevance in this crazy dance of human interaction. I believe that if medicine is truely your calling, then you will be practicing for a very long time. Several physicians whom I have worked with have been well into their 70's. During that time, you will undoubtedly interact with patients and colleagues who find "the history of chess" one of the most interesting things in the world. If making an effective diagnosis is enhanced by having a bit of knowledge of this topic, then by all means use it. Medicine is using whatever tools you can find to fix a problem. For that reason alone, a broad, liberal education is necessary.

 

[Fermata]

During that time, you will undoubtedly interact with patients and colleagues who find "the history of chess" one of the most interesting things in the world. If making an effective diagnosis is enhanced by having a bit of knowledge of this topic, then by all means use it. Medicine is using whatever tools you can find to fix a problem. For that reason alone, a broad, liberal education is necessary.

"Knight jumps queen....bishop jumps queen.....pawn jumps queen....." 😀

 

[CoverMe]

Hehe. You obviously havn't met many fiddlers......

"Grandpa was a fiddler.....he loved his violin........but women, cards, and whiskey all made sweet music to him....sweet music to him....."

Btw, banjo players and fiddle players tend to have different personalities....I'm not sure why this happens.

You're right... no idea why i thought "banjo." After 12 years of flute, I picked up violin pretty easily, the plan was to learn some and then get into more of a country fiddle sort of thing.... but last year when Ochem, Physics, started knocking and the MCAT loomed in my future, I dropped it. But, i can see my violin from where I sit... sigh. It was fun.

 

[Fermata]

You're right... no idea why i thought "banjo." After 12 years of flute, I picked up violin pretty easily, the plan was to learn some and then get into more of a country fiddle sort of thing.... but last year when Ochem, Physics, started knocking and the MCAT loomed in my future, I dropped it. But, i can see my violin from where I sit... sigh. It was fun.

I play banjo. We should jam sometime. 😀

 

[CoverMe]

I play banjo. We should jam sometime. 😀

I feel like i'm chasing you from thread to thread to hold this conversation! 😀

Time for bed... T.A. meeting at 8 tomorrow! Ciao!

 

[Fermata]

I feel like i'm chasing you from thread to thread to hold this conversation! 😀

Time for bed... T.A. meeting at 8 tomorrow! Ciao!

Until we meet again.... 😀

 

[eralza]

"Knight jumps queen....bishop jumps queen.....pawn jumps queen....." 😀

Scary truth...When I took the MCAT last Apr in Frankfurt, there was a fellow test-taker there who was going on about how she was in Germany on a Fulbright Scholarship studying various enzymatic reactions. She went to discuss how her free time was filled up studying "the history of chess". The whole dialogue was a bit disturbing, but I seem to remember that the game of chess orignated in China. I don't imagine that we will be competing for the same schools!

 

[dmoney41]

No wonder we are getting all our specialists (cardiologists, neurologists, etc.) from international countries.

Hahaha, hohoho, harharhar.

Oh, I just noticed "I want to apply to medical school, get an MD, and practice medicine to help humanitarian communities". 5/10 on the trollometer; you had a good troll premise and hit a lot of good troll issues but you came on too strong and ruined your believability. A superior troll would have toned down the trollicity of the post just enough to get lots of indignant supporters of non-science classes. Poorly done, man.

On the off chance any real people think this way: stop it. Go read a damned (literature) book and do a keg stand. You'll be 45 and divorced and trying to mack on sorority girls in your convertible if you don't pull the stick out and enjoy life before you're working 80/week.

 

[dmk724]

Hi,

I am finishing up my last year of college as a biology major. Like anyone else who is reading this forum, I want to apply to medical school, get an MD, and practice medicine to help humanitarian communities. Being a biology major, I have to take all these classes that are a WASTE OF TIME. For example, Theological Philosophy, British Art, Oceanography, and Evolution. What do these classes got to do with being a doctor. Do not try to say that they make you a well-rounded person. They do not. I have had enough lower-division arts and humanities that made me a well-rounded person. If we take medical school level classes, medical schools do not recommend that for some reason. I am stuck in the middle of nowhere. I should of gone abroad to places like Australia or India to study medicine. They usually accept students right out of high school. No wonder we are getting all our specialists (cardiologists, neurologists, etc.) from international countries. They usually like to concentrate on one aspect of thier lives, rather than jumping from one subject area to another. I just wanted to ask, what is the purpose of a BS when our ultimate goal is to get an MD. Why not just get 90 semester units to study for the MCAT and then apply right away?

I have some really bad news for you. Those "waste of time" classes that you're forced to take, and don't really see why you have to take them? They don't end in college. You have those kinds of classes in med school too - lectures that take 3 hours when they should have taken 15 minutes, classes that have nothing to do with biochem or anatomy, cultural sensitivity seminars, etc. Are they relevant to practicing medicine? Sure. But compared to the difficulty of your basic science classes, the other classes can seem like a waste of time. And before someone says, "Well, you're in med school. You don't have to go to those lectures," that's true, you do have the option of not going. But you also have the option of not passing as well. (Yes, the material in those "waste of time" classes will show up on an exam at some point. And the information isn't always in a textbook.) But, then again, I actually like most of those "waste of time" classes, and I got my undergrad degree in History. So maybe I'm just biased.

Basically, my point is, you should suck it up and learn to deal with these kinds of classes now. Or, of course, move to India or Australia.

P.S. What exactly are "humanitarian communities"? Can't say that I've heard that phrase before.

 

[leechy]

Ahhh yes....but one less year of working as a physician means one more year until retirement.....which means one more year until you can sleep/fish/play banjo all day.
😀 😀

Not necessarily... one less year of working as a physician could also mean one less year working, period. 👍

 

[leechy]

Not to commit the sin of defending the OP or anything, but most countries don't require as much education of their doctors as we do. They graduate from med school at like age 23 or so. I'm glad to have my extra education and all, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to be a competent physician. Now, is it nice to have a full college experience for other reasons? Sure. Really, my main objection is that college costs so much. If they're going to require 4 years of college, they should at least make it cheaper.

 

[fpr85]

"Knight jumps queen....bishop jumps queen.....pawn jumps queen....." 😀

Sorry, you have it all wrong. "Jumping" is in checkers. "Capturing" is in chess.... "Knight captures queen....bishop captures queen.....pawn captures queen....."

 

[DeepCowboy]

Also, I think that the US concieves of a physician as a professional. To make med school a variety of trade school would be antithetical to this idea.

Very enlightened. Medicine used to be a "trade" in the US, and still is in most of the world, and that is why you see the difference in paths to achieve a particular country's MD/DO equivalent. Also why in old western movies the doctor's office is next to the bootmaker and blacksmith, but just dressed in nicer clothes.

The transition from "trade" to "professional" happened earlier this century when Johns Hopkins was founded with the vision to make that transition happen. Every other school followed suit, and every school founded since then has had the same philosophy. Of note, the DO community founded at the end of the 19th century already had this idea along with many other good ones that were eventually incorporated into allopathic medicine.

The point is, if you only want to focus your learning on medicine, that's great. We need people like you; they're called nurses, physician's assistants, surgical technicians, etc. (do not take this as a knock on those fields, I am merely illustrating the difference in the type of education and training).

The doctors are the ones who are leading the team, setting the vision, making out a plan to achieve the mission, etc. Then the team of people who only know medicine execute it. A doctor does spend time making purely clinical scientific decisions, but not all the time. All the other things they do require refinement of all the non-cognitive and meta-cognitive skills that the adcoms are looking for when they interview you. That's why medical schools and the doctor community in general have recently taken efforts to enhance professionalism in the field. You can see this by taking a look on the AAMC website in the publications section. A good example is "A Flag in the Wind" from February 2003.

What's funny is, all these classes and activities that are a "waste of time" are part of what develops the skills of professionalism. This is a fact of the human condition, and you can see it in almost every human activity. For example, in the military the enlisted Soldiers and Sailors mostly come right out of high school. But the officers have to go to college first. In fact, many officers have their college paid for by the government (ROTC and academy). Why is that? Because the officers are professionals (again, not a knock on the enlisted). They lead, have vision, make the mission, etc., and it takes a liberal education to be able to do that. The point is, learning a particular thing is sometimes not as important as learning how to learn. That is why during college you get to choose your major, nobody does it for you, and why you still have to take other core classes. The process you develop of mastering a subject can be applied to anything in the future even if the specific knowledge is not useful. Haven't you ever noticed that most of the interesting and really smart people you have met were kind of smart at everything?

On a similar topic, the education systems in other countries, especially those in Europe and Asia, require students to "specialize" much earlier in life. Generally, you go to a specialty high school and your university education is very directed. This results in people going into a profession or trade much earlier in life and it does have some good effects in that the society gets people into important positions faster, etc. This is part of the reason that sometimes you will see news stories about how math and science grades are better for students outside of the U.S. But I like our system better. We educate people to be citizens, not train them to be worker bees. We give them the intellectual tools to contribute to the common good in the way they think they will do best. I think this is a big part of why we have been more successful by any metric in 230 years (and especially the 20th century) than these other places that have had an organized civilization for thousands of years.

Professionalism is a "hot topic" right now for the AMA and the AAMC because they want to figure out how to incorporate it into the medical school curriculum and the required Continuing Medical Education (CME) training for MD/DO's. I would recommend having some words to say about it for interviews because it would make you look mature and on the ball. Perhaps asking the interviewer how their school is incorporating professionalism into the curriculum. The link above is a good place to start.

Doctors are caring well-educated scientists with a social conscience and are relied upon to do more than what science classes teach them to do. It was fruitful for me to learn about the "history of medicine" because it compliments my conversations on the "history of chess."

 

[liverotcod]

DeepCowboy, that was a great post. Thanks for fleshing out my argument - I had the same thought about the allied health "trades", but hadn't brought it all together so eloquently.

Plus, kudos to you for recognizing my enlightened status. 😍

 

[lumanyika]

Scary truth...When I took the MCAT last Apr in Frankfurt, there was a fellow test-taker there who was going on about how she was in Germany on a Fulbright Scholarship studying various enzymatic reactions. She went to discuss how her free time was filled up studying "the history of chess". The whole dialogue was a bit disturbing, but I seem to remember that the game of chess orignated in China. I don't imagine that we will be competing for the same schools!

China you say? i thought chess had two independent origins--Persian and Chinese.oh! well...

 

[DeepCowboy]

Yeah, you should change it to "Enlightened Coin Flip Grandmaster" and maybe get a Buddha avatar. Thanks for the compliment on my prose. Comes in handy for all those essays. Plus, this topic is something I feel strongly about.

 

[katunoshi]

I should of gone abroad to places like Australia or India to study medicine. They usually accept students right out of high school.

In Italy we can enter medical school after high school. Medical school is 6 years long (after high-school).

...I don't understand why in US you have to get a BS before entering Medical School....

😕

No wonder we are getting all our specialists (cardiologists, neurologists, etc.) from international countries.

Sure??? It seemed to me that US top-specialists are US citizens, and that it's very hard for an international medical graduate to enter top specialities in US

🙁

 

[DeepCowboy]

In Italy we can enter medical school after high school. Medical school is 6 years long (after high-school).

...I don't understand why in US you have to get a BS before entering Medical School....

Thank you for exemplifying every single point I made in my above post in only 3 sentences. That is impressive.

 

[rcd]

It wouldn't take 90. Smart folk like you and me could probably get away with 30, 40 tops. For that matter, why bother with the MCAT? High school AP scores should certainly show adequate preparation for med school.

Another thing I hate is making people wait until they're 15 to start driving. That's probably why we have all these foreigners driving taxis in America, when we've got perfectly good teenagers that need jobs. The ones that aren't going to medical school, that is.

and what's with ireland's overpopulation and under-nourishment problems? :idea" they should eat their babies. (note: not my idea)

 

[EvoDevo]

O.Kay. Closing. 🙄