The caduceus is mistakingly used

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Dharma

Dharma

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Until recently, I did not know that the use of the 2 serpent entangled winged staff by medicine is quite erroneous- a perpetuated mistake that many have assumed is correct without question. The caduceus - the symbol of the Greek god Hermes- the messenger of the gods and guide to the Underworld- is NOT a symbol of medicine but rather that of commerce and negotiation, the qualities of proper trade in the marketplace. While they may very well be qualities of a successful physician, they are certainly not unique to the practice of medicine and could be applied to any other profession.

The true symbol of medicine is the wingless staff entangled by a single serpent- the Staff of Asclepius- Greek god of medicine. Hippocrates, father of modern medicine (as we all know) was said to be a worshipper of Asclepius. Somehow throughout the centuries, someone mixed these symbols up and instead the symbol of the messenger Hermes has replaced that of the healer Asclepius.

Why is this mistake perpetuated without correction? All in all, it's no big deal, but it is quite interesting. Your job: point this out to others. Hermes is cool and all, but the last thing most doctors want to be is a guide to the underworld; it's probably a good idea to try the medicine part first 😉

Anyhow, just thought I'd offer up a thread a bit on the relaxed side. Back to the physiology I must go. Good day.
 
Dharma said:
Your job: point this out to others.
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November-01-2011-00-17-16-ScreenShot20111031at8.jpg
 
aSagacious said:
November-01-2011-00-17-16-ScreenShot20111031at8.jpg
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To be sure that your med school buddy doesn't end up getting a caduceus tattooed on his back... and I've seen it a few times. Sad. LOL! (BTW the quoted comment was made in jest 😉
 
Biblical origins also has the nehushtan from the book of Numbers. This was also a serpent around a staff that was used in the healing of those bitten by snakes.

I have also noticed that veterinary medicine tends to use the caduceus for their symbol, though they slap a V in front of it.
 
I was on my PNWU interview a couple of days ago, and was relieved when I noticed the single serpent around the staff on their logo.
 
The "old head" DOs LOVE pointing out that "OMGZ the DOs have NEVER used the cadeuceus and always have used the asclepius (sp??)"

Either way, multiple jabrones in my class still are sportin these hideous tats. Never got that at all. Granted I plan on getting a tat to commemorate my graduation in 2 years, but it sure as hell wont be directly medically related. What happens when you fail out and then u have this big ass caduceus tat on your back for the rest of your life as a........(fill in X non medical career here).
 
Dharma said:
Until recently, I did not know that the use of the 2 serpent entangled winged staff by medicine is quite erroneous- a perpetuated mistake that many have assumed is correct without question. The caduceus - the symbol of the Greek god Hermes- the messenger of the gods and guide to the Underworld- is NOT a symbol of medicine but rather that of commerce and negotiation, the qualities of proper trade in the marketplace. While they may very well be qualities of a successful physician, they are certainly not unique to the practice of medicine and could be applied to any other profession.

The true symbol of medicine is the wingless staff entangled by a single serpent- the Staff of Asclepius- Greek god of medicine. Hippocrates, father of modern medicine (as we all know) was said to be a worshipper of Asclepius. Somehow throughout the centuries, someone mixed these symbols up and instead the symbol of the messenger Hermes has replaced that of the healer Asclepius.

Why is this mistake perpetuated without correction? All in all, it's no big deal, but it is quite interesting. Your job: point this out to others. Hermes is cool and all, but the last thing most doctors want to be is a guide to the underworld; it's probably a good idea to try the medicine part first 😉

Anyhow, just thought I'd offer up a thread a bit on the relaxed side. Back to the physiology I must go. Good day.
Click to expand...

Its funny you mention this because the combat medic pin I got in the military was single serpent wrapped around a cane and the symbol for my actual unit was a single serpent wrapped around a sword....never realized the difference between a single or double serpent (tho i did see some units have symbols of 2 serpents)
 
Dharma said:
Somehow throughout the centuries, someone mixed these symbols up and instead the symbol of the messenger Hermes has replaced that of the healer Asclepius.
Click to expand...

For reference it was not centuries or somehow.

When the US Army Medical Corps was created in 1902 someone in the chain of command decided he liked the caduceus and thus this confusion was born.

At this point if you look, most medical organizations use the correct one; but it still persists in various locations. Most commonly one might argue permanently on the skin of less-than observant pre-meds 🙂
 
willen101383 said:
The "old head" DOs LOVE pointing out that "OMGZ the DOs have NEVER used the cadeuceus and always have used the asclepius (sp??)"

Either way, multiple jabrones in my class still are sportin these hideous tats. Never got that at all. Granted I plan on getting a tat to commemorate my graduation in 2 years, but it sure as hell wont be directly medically related. What happens when you fail out and then u have this big ass caduceus tat on your back for the rest of your life as a........(fill in X non medical career here).
Click to expand...

+10 for saying "jabrones"
 
LifeTake2 said:
For reference it was not centuries or somehow.

When the US Army Medical Corps was created in 1902 someone in the chain of command decided he liked the caduceus and thus this confusion was born.

At this point if you look, most medical organizations use the correct one; but it still persists in various locations. Most commonly one might argue permanently on the skin of less-than observant pre-meds 🙂
Click to expand...

this. 👍

seriously 👍 to all of this.
 
When researching ideas for my first tattoo 3 years ago I came across the distinction between the two. For me it came down to which one would make the better tattoo (obviously the caduceus). I find it kind of silly to debate the merits of symbols of deities that don't actually exist because over time the accepted meaning of such symbols can change in the public eye (see: swastika) .
 
DrLeon said:
I find it kind of silly to debate the merits of symbols of deities that don't actually exist
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Not trying to start a religious dispute (although, I do enjoy them)... but you could say this to any symbol (cross, om, star/crescent, etc.), since no deity can ever be proven to exist, despite how strongly you may believe in one (or many).

The caduceus is the better looking symbol in my opinion. I mean... two serpants AND wings? Coolness overload. 👍
 
I knew someone would show up on here defending their tattoo. Ha!

As for the Army Medical Corps thing, I read that about 3 seconds after writing the original post and didn't want to pull a "edit my post" thing. Interesting story.

That said, if you read up on the caduceus, over time it has been considered to represent not only the balance in the marketplace but also the deceit employed by the "successful" businessman in the world of trade. (Hermes was said to be on slick, fast-talking, hustler). Regardless, still a cool symbol, just not the right one for medicine 😉
 
DrLeon said:
I find it kind of silly to debate the merits of symbols of deities that don't actually exist because over time the accepted meaning of such symbols can change in the public eye (see: swastika) .
Click to expand...

Debate? Huh?
 
http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html

If you have any time give this link a going-over. Fun read. It even mentions how the the nasty nematode Dracunculus medinesis and the method of "removing" the worm with the use of a small stick may have been the inspiration for the original staff, being that it was a common infection during the day.

I also liked this little bit about Hermes staff. Turns out that its use as a symbol of medicine predates the whole Army Medic mix-up:

"The link between Hermes and his caduceus and medicine seems to have arisen by Hermes links with alchemy. Alchemists were referred to as the sons of Hermes, as Hermetists or Hermeticists and as "practitioners of the hermetic arts". By the end of the sixteenth century, the study of alchemy included not only medicine and pharmaceuticals but chemistry, mining and metallurgy. Despite learned opinion that it is the single snake staff of Asclepius that is the proper symbol of medicine, many medical groups have adopted the twin serpent caduceus of Hermes or Mercury as a medical symbol during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries."
 
I read about this in a book a couple of years ago and it has aggravated me ever since. This actually goes back to a mistake that a single officer in the U.S. Army Corps made and it was never corrected. Even a few years later the Army acknowledged that the Caduceus was not the correct symbol and never changed it. Hence, the use of Caduceus persists today. Just another example of our own arrogance changing the meaning of a symbol that persisted for thousands of years.

There's a local ambulance service that has the EMS Star of Life (which correctly has Asclepius) on their ambulances at the same time that their logo has Caduceus.

Is this even a big deal? No, not really. I would like to see the Asclepius used more often though for historical significance.
 
The AMA changed its symbol thanks to this.

I really don't think there should be a "debate." One is a symbol of medicine, the other isn't.
 
As a Corpsman in the Navy our rate insignia is the caduceus. I can't tell you how many Corpsman have the caduceus tatooed on their bodies. I considered the tatoo after graduating Corps school, but decided against it. Looking back I am extremetly grateful I never got the tatoo as it is quite commonly considered a "rookie" mistake in the Navy, lol.

Anyways, I like the biblical connotations of the one serpant staff in Numbers. Moses put the staff up to heal those bitten by venomous snakes. That sounds pretty cool if you ask me, and the healing could be considered consistent with the healing treatment that doctor's administer (without the miracle aspect).
 
I always knew the staff of Asclepius was the more correct staff concerning medicine. I was a Greek and Roman history buff. Also Christian, and knew of it's tie to the staffs of Aaron and of Moses.

I was a combat medic, then RT in the military. When I chose to get the Caduceus, it was my time and memory of the events that I went through as a medic that made me choose the Caduceus. Regardless of what the original staff meant, or which one is most valid, the truth comes out to be that more than 80% of the general population think "medical" when they see the 2 snake staff with wings. On top of that, the majority of hospitals have adopted it as well. Before the Army used it as it's symbol the US public health service used it as well. Infact, they still do!

After all this, my tattoo looks damn good! I wouldn't dream of trading it for a one snake staff... ever.

I used rattlesnakes because I am from Texas. This tattoo in general is a symbol of my time in the military, and the things I did as a medic. See above the right of the tattoo, there is a scar behind my shoulder. My friend was shot, and the bullet passed through him, and hit me after... This was what made me choose my right arm.

tat.jpg
 
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rrt said:
I always knew the staff of Asclepius was the more correct staff concerning medicine. I was a Greek and Roman history buff. Also Christian, and knew of it's tie to the staffs of Aaron and of Moses.

I was a combat medic, then RT in the military. When I chose to get the Caduceus, it was my time and memory of the events that I went through as a medic that made me choose the Caduceus. Regardless of what the original staff meant, or which one is most valid, the truth comes out to be that more than 80% of the general population think "medical" when they see the 2 snake staff with wings. On top of that, the majority of hospitals have adopted it as well. Before the Army used it as it's symbol the US public health service used it as well. Infact, they still do!

After all this, my tattoo looks damn good! I wouldn't dream of trading it for a one snake staff... ever.

I used rattlesnakes because I am from Texas. This tattoo in general is a symbol of my time in the military, and the things I did as a medic. See above the right of the tattoo, there is a scar behind my shoulder. My friend was shot, and the bullet passed through him, and hit me after... This was what made me choose my right arm.

tat.jpg
Click to expand...

Your tattoo looks awesome and is unique. The snakes are looking forward at onlookers, the colors are cool, and the whole thing is very vibrant. Most of the corpsman I know who have the tattoo just got a mirrior image of the rate insignia that goes on your shoulder, which looks pretty stupid.
 
rrt said:
I always knew the staff of Asclepius was the more correct staff concerning medicine. I was a Greek and Roman history buff. Also Christian, and knew of it's tie to the staffs of Aaron and of Moses.

I was a combat medic, then RT in the military. When I chose to get the Caduceus, it was my time and memory of the events that I went through as a medic that made me choose the Caduceus. Regardless of what the original staff meant, or which one is most valid, the truth comes out to be that more than 80% of the general population think "medical" when they see the 2 snake staff with wings. On top of that, the majority of hospitals have adopted it as well. Before the Army used it as it's symbol the US public health service used it as well. Infact, they still do!

After all this, my tattoo looks damn good! I wouldn't dream of trading it for a one snake staff... ever.

I used rattlesnakes because I am from Texas. This tattoo in general is a symbol of my time in the military, and the things I did as a medic. See above the right of the tattoo, there is a scar behind my shoulder. My friend was shot, and the bullet passed through him, and hit me after... This was what made me choose my right arm.

tat.jpg
Click to expand...

Thanks for the service man. As a fellow Texan, I'm loving the rattlesnakes... especially how they're looking outward. The feathery wings look cool too. Is that wording on the top? I can't read what it says.

The design is really cool though. It's got flare. I saw someone a few months ago when I was getting an oil change and he just had a straight black caduceus on his tricep. Bland, boring... dull.
 
Iliketoytles said:
Thanks for the service man. As a fellow Texan, I'm loving the rattlesnakes... especially how they're looking outward. The feathery wings look cool too. Is that wording on the top? I can't read what it says.

The design is really cool though. It's got flare. I saw someone a few months ago when I was getting an oil change and he just had a straight black caduceus on his tricep. Bland, boring... dull.
Click to expand...

Quote states

Per Angusta Ad Augusta

It basically translates to either
To high places through winding roads
or
Through perseverance, greatness is achieved
 
rrt said:
Quote states

Per Angusta Ad Augusta

It basically translates to either
To high places through winding roads
or
Through perseverance, greatness is achieved
Click to expand...

Ah cool! 👍
 
The AMA and the WHO both use the right symbol. I mostly see the Caduceus on dental offices... which is entirely apropos.
 
scarshapedstar said:
The AMA and the WHO both use the right symbol. I mostly see the Caduceus on dental offices... which is entirely apropos.
Click to expand...

I keep wanting to defend the caduceus, but I forget that my viewpoint is different from everyone else, as I was actually a combat medic in the Army.

Wrong symbol or not, it is still the correct symbol for the medical corps.
 
If nothing else, this post has taught me how to do... this!

☤

(Arial doesn't support the Staff)
 
mine still wins. Pretty sure my 2 snake staff gets more ladies than your one snake staff! haha.
 
Just wait till Ekans evolves. My arbok will bring all the girls to the yard.
 
What if I have one "big snake?" Maybe you are over-compensating by having two snakes 😉
 
DocEspana said:
It not the size of the snake, nor the number, its the circumfrence of the staff its on that matters.

_44887197_offspring_size466.gif
Click to expand...

Honestly, if I saw the rod on someone, I'd have to ask, So you had worms?
 
Did you know snakes turn blue prior to shedding due to a lymph-like layer between the old and new skin layers?

Does YOUR snake do that? Didn't think so... or I should say... I certainly hope not.
 
rrt said:
I always knew the staff of Asclepius was the more correct staff concerning medicine. I was a Greek and Roman history buff. Also Christian, and knew of it's tie to the staffs of Aaron and of Moses.

I was a combat medic, then RT in the military. When I chose to get the Caduceus, it was my time and memory of the events that I went through as a medic that made me choose the Caduceus. Regardless of what the original staff meant, or which one is most valid, the truth comes out to be that more than 80% of the general population think "medical" when they see the 2 snake staff with wings. On top of that, the majority of hospitals have adopted it as well. Before the Army used it as it's symbol the US public health service used it as well. Infact, they still do!

After all this, my tattoo looks damn good! I wouldn't dream of trading it for a one snake staff... ever.

I used rattlesnakes because I am from Texas. This tattoo in general is a symbol of my time in the military, and the things I did as a medic. See above the right of the tattoo, there is a scar behind my shoulder. My friend was shot, and the bullet passed through him, and hit me after... This was what made me choose my right arm.

tat.jpg
Click to expand...
I
Thanks, man, and THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR SERVICE!!!!!!!!!
 
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who cares? it is considered the symbol of medicine now. The swastika was once a symbol of leading a fulfilled life but I can't get away with tattooing it on my chest and claiming it is for balance and harmony. lots of symbols change over time.

you better not where a cross necklace because because it predates christianity so therefore you are claiming that you worship pagan gods.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
who cares? it is considered the symbol of medicine now. The swastika was once a symbol of leading a fulfilled life but I can't get away with tattooing it on my chest and claiming it is for balance and harmony. lots of symbols change over time.

you better not where a cross necklace because because it predates christianity so therefore you are claiming that you worship pagan gods.
Click to expand...

👍
 
CopToEM said:
Just another example of our own arrogance changing the meaning of a symbol that persisted for thousands of years.
Click to expand...
That's almost like the modern day "N" word.

d-(^_^)Z
 
FINALLY a forum on it. hahah I've heard a few debates on it but I'm glad to have this clarified 😀
 
Necro bump.

In related news, a class mate of mine was pre-med, and got a tatoo of the caduceus the width of his upper back first semester, freshman year. After getting a C in Bio 1, and D in gen chem 1, he decided "environmental bio" was more his thing, not medicine. The guy took his shirt off any time beer hit his lips.

Oh, and he's a tool. A total tool.
 
Mehd School said:
Necro bump.

In related news, a class mate of mine was pre-med, and got a tatoo of the caduceus the width of his upper back first semester, freshman year. After getting a C in Bio 1, and D in gen chem 1, he decided "environmental bio" was more his thing, not medicine. The guy took his shirt off any time beer hit his lips.

Oh, and he's a tool. A total tool.
Click to expand...

The last part was redundant... haha

I feel like we know the same person, just slightly different major change...
 
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