The Caribbean Route Questions and Successes

[whizplusdum]

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I started this thread for individuals who are planning on attending the Caribbean route in becoming a physician. I welcome all Caribbean graduates to talk about their experiences, successes and which school they attended.
I am not here to start another Carb MD vs US MD vs US DO, so if you are here to bash on Carb MD please do not post anything here.
This is a motivational post for a lot of individuals who are seeking this route.

Also for future students, please feel free to ask any questions.
Please be advised that the National Residency Match Program has indicated that roughly 50 percent of IMG matched in 2013. However, there are over 30 Caribbean medical schools, which is not indicative of why the Caribbean route is bad. Currently there are the BIG 4, SGU, Ross, AUC, and SABA which has demonstrated excellent matches for their graduates. Two were recently purchased by DeVry, a graduated school in the US that has done extremely well for their graduates and their company.

Please also be aware that IMG have less forgiveness when it comes to applying for residencies.
-If you fail your Steps once, your chances of obtaining residencies drops down to 10 percent.
-These schools are for profit, so they accept a lot of students who should not be on the island in the first place (if you think you are in this category, I would recommend that you prepare yourself by removing any distractions)
-If attending one of the BIG 4, be prepared to stay on the top 20 percent of your class.

SDN and ValueMD has always indicated that the Caribbean route is a bad route. By indicating that graduating from a Caribbean Medical school = NO Residencies and now the new excuse is that "It was okay to go the Caribbean route in the past, but it is not okay now because you will not find residencies." Very counterintuitive, so this is not true! Ignore all of the negatives on this forum because this route is still alive and it is still working. USMD and USDO schools tuition have increased exponentially, making the Caribbean route roughly the same price. The potential residency crunch will affect everyone. However attending one of the BIG 4 serves as a strong benefit as previous graduates have demonstrated.
A article pushed in 1980s have indicated that the first round of SGU graduates to attend residencies in the US were one of the most hard working medical students the attending physicians have ever met. (Once I find the article again, I will post it)

As one of my interviewers from 1 of the BIG 4 has indicated to me about my concerns of residencies, "if that was true, I would not be here today."

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

so how much did you get paid for writing this lovely piece?

 

[WillburCobb]

Please be advised that the National Residency Match Program has indicated that roughly 50 percent of IMG matched in 2013. However, there are over 30 Caribbean medical schools, which is not indicative of why the Caribbean route is bad. Currently there are the BIG 4, SGU, Ross, AUC, and SABA which has demonstrated excellent matches for their graduates. Two were recently purchased by DeVry, a graduated school in the US that has done extremely well for their graduates and their company...

SDN and ValueMD has always indicated that the Caribbean route is a bad route. By indicating that graduating from a Caribbean Medical school = NO Residencies and now the new excuse is that "It was okay to go the Caribbean route in the past, but it is not okay now because you will not find residencies." Very counterintuitive, so this is not true! Ignore all of the negatives on this forum because this route is still alive and it is still working. USMD and USDO schools tuition have increased exponentially, making the Caribbean route roughly the same price. The potential residency crunch will affect everyone. However attending one of the BIG 4 serves as a strong benefit as previous graduates have demonstrated.
A article pushed in 1980s have indicated that the first round of SGU graduates to attend residencies in the US were one of the most hard working medical students the attending physicians have ever met. (Once I find the article again, I will post it)

As one of my interviewers from 1 of the BIG 4 has indicated to me about my concerns of residencies, "if that was true, I would not be here today."

 

[whizplusdum]

so how much did you get paid for writing this lovely piece?

None, it is sad that you see yourself better than a lot of people. I guess this is why you troll on forums all day.

 

[whizplusdum]

Nice more trolls on forums. Lol

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[whizplusdum]

If anyone is thinking about taking OP srsly, take a look at the # of US MD/DO grads vs. # of residency spots. Who is going to feel the pinch first? I mean, you could always bet on the US gov spending more money and making more residency spots...lol.

34,270 active applicants (down 85 from 2013)
• 17,374 U.S. MD Seniors (down 113 from 2013)
• 2,738 Osteopathic (up 61 from 2013)
• 5,133 US IMGs (up 38 from 2013)
• 7,334 IMGs (down 234 from 2013)

I wonder why a lot of US MD senior are unmatched until Pre-SOAPS.

 

[Kochanie]

DO/SMP > Caribbean
the end

 

[whizplusdum]

Its funny because all of the first people to post have been Pre-DO students.
First thing is first, this is a serious topic. Please keep to yourself if you have nothing good to say.
If the Carb route is dead, why are US residencies still accepting Card MD?
It is because they produce quality doctors.

 

[WillburCobb]

Its funny because all of the first people to post have been Pre-DO students.

1. Not sure how this is relevant. 2. I'd double check your facts.

 

[whizplusdum]

1. Not sure how this is relevant. 2. I'd double check your facts.

No thanks, I recognize a few names from the past and it would be a waste of my own time. I started this tread to help others who are considering this rout. However you guys are the first to bash it. Which is fine, you are free to your own opinions.

 

[Mad Jack]

Please, let us have a serious conversation. For all the issues that have been said, the off shore schools still provided about 6500 doctors out of about 26,000 slots for the main match in 2014 . That is nearly 1/4 of all the slots. I think it is important to present some accurate information about the factors that students should look into schools who have to consider this route

In 2018 there will be nearly 3000 more MD and DO grads in the match. That leaves around 13000 USIMGs and FMGs fighting for 3500 residency spots. Long odds IMO.

I just don't think 400k+ in debt is worth the relatively low chance of matching personally. The islands were a decent idea 15 years ago. Now, not so much. With the massive increase in US MD and DO enrollment, most students are much better off increasing their competitiveness and getting into a US school.

 

[bambam92]

I feel like if you can't get yourself into a US MD or DO school, then keep trying! And then if you still can't--think of career changes. Being a physician is a privilege, not a right. The whole Caribbean route makes me think those people are entitled; i.e. "I don't have stats to get into US MD or DO school so I will go Caribbean, cause heck I need to be a doctor." News flash, not everyone needs to be a physician. Plenty of other things to pursue. If you don't have the want or hunger to pull at least grades to get into some DO program I don't know if you deserve to be a physician. Because guess what, not everyone deserves to be a physician! If you want it bad enough, for your own sake, make it into a program on the mainland.

/thread

 

[Kochanie]

I feel like if you can't get yourself into a US MD or DO school, then keep trying! And then if you still can't--think of career changes. Being a physician is a privilege, not a right. The whole Caribbean route makes me think those people are entitled; i.e. "I don't have stats to get into US MD or DO school so I will go Caribbean, cause heck I need to be a doctor." News flash, not everyone needs to be a physician. Plenty of other things to pursue. If you don't have the want or hunger to pull at least grades to get into some DO program I don't know if you deserve to be a physician. Because guess what, not everyone deserves to be a physician! If you want it bad enough, for your own sake, make it into a program on the mainland.

/thread

I actually know someone who got into a MD school but was international and couldn't afford it so she went Caribbean route.

 

[futuredoc331]

I feel like if you can't get yourself into a US MD or DO school, then keep trying! And then if you still can't--think of career changes. Being a physician is a privilege, not a right. The whole Caribbean route makes me think those people are entitled; i.e. "I don't have stats to get into US MD or DO school so I will go Caribbean, cause heck I need to be a doctor." News flash, not everyone needs to be a physician. Plenty of other things to pursue. If you don't have the want or hunger to pull at least grades to get into some DO program I don't know if you deserve to be a physician. Because guess what, not everyone deserves to be a physician! If you want it bad enough, for your own sake, make it into a program on the mainland.

/thread

I feel like you have an opinion about everything and are still a pre-med student yourself. Why don't you sit back and let the people with experience talk. You're even dishing out MCAT advice on half a dozen threads and haven't even taken it yet.

 

[drcrispmd]

Obviously Carib should not be your first choice. It is getting more difficult for IMG to match so that needs to be taken I to consideration. Success stories, I know several because I went there and actually know people (not just assuming). I know grads from SGU in Derm, ortho, radiology, rad onc, opthomolgy, plastic surgery, derm in Canada, anesthesia, tons doing fellowships. You do have to realize these are past successes. A lot has changed in the match in the last couple of years and will cont. I am "just" a family med doc but that is what I wanted to do before medical school. Forgot to mention I know a 3rd year peds resident who will be doing a neonatology fellowship at Vanderbilt and he is from AUC. People of their reasons for not doing DO. Yes, there are people at Caribbean med schools that should not be physicians, but I have had US med students that rotated with my residency that should not be physicians too (there will be more in the Carib schools). After being on the residency side of the match, the Carib and FMG usually have better step scores and fewer failures. However, FMG usually spend 1-2 years after med school just sitting for the steps, so their scores should be higher. Don't assume that Carib student do poorly on the steps. Has not been my experience from interviewing or from the people I know from SGU.
I applied one round to USMD and applied to SGU at the same time. Actually I applied to Australia first (which has changed their app process a lot in 10 years). At the time I applied Australia did not recognize DO degree and I didn't know if I would want to move back there in the future.

 

[WillburCobb]

which is why it is even more important to discuss the criteria for students who must seek the off shore MD route.

I would say "choose to" is a better word choice than "must".

 

[IL Pre Med]

LOL OP used "Caribbean" and "success" in the same post.

 

[Anicetus]

The part about not passing the USMLE the first time is true.

I have two friends from college who chose the Caribbean route. One went to AUC and she didn't pass the step I. As a result she isn't going to take part in the match next year. It's really confusing but now she has to take a year off and is doing more rotations or something like that.

The other friend went to AUC as well and matched well into a NY internal medicine program.

Again, like the DO route success, it all comes down to the individual. There is just a lot more all or nothing risks with the Caribbean.

 

[bambam92]

I feel like you have an opinion about everything and are still a pre-med student yourself. Why don't you sit back and let the people with experience talk. You're even dishing out MCAT advice on half a dozen threads and haven't even taken it yet.

Your status indicates pre-med as well; I am taking MCAT 8/27. Utilizing sn2ed now--be sure to let you know how it goes🙂

 

[DermViser]

If the Carb route is dead, why are US residencies still accepting Card MD? It is because they produce quality doctors.

 

[WillburCobb]

I will say must. I deal with primarily nontraditional students. Many of these students went to college originally young, unmotivated, uninformed, and immature. They do poorly, drop out, have family impacts, etc, that make their original grades mediocre. Fast forward 5, 10, 15 years and they are different mature people. Yet even with postbacc grades, SMP, etc, they still may not as competitive as needed in growing selectivity of MD programs and increasingly competition for DO seats, gives these students no other opportunity. They must consider the off shore schools if they want to be a physician. Because of that I have spent a good part of the last decade understanding how these schools work, what criteria should be considered in selecting a school, and fully understanding the risk of selecting such a school. Simply disparaging theses schools en masse does not serve these students. Leaving it to a fully school funded site such as ValueMD to explain does not provide non biased info sources.

Posters here on SDN should use their collective intellect to go past the well proven maxim that students should consider US MD/DO over off shore schools and discuss the differences, weaknesses, issues, and the rest so that students who must seek this route have some guidance

I can appreciate your point, however as someone who falls into one of the populations you alluded to, I still disagree. Becoming a physician isn't a "must" it's a " want". If one still can't meet the bare minimum for a US school (MD or DO) acceptance after exhausting ALL options (SMP, post-bac, etc) the odds of being successful at any other med school are not in one's favor. It's better to offer these people realisms than continue to feed unrealistic dreams - help them explore other areas of healthcare rather than leading them down a more than likely very bleak path with (objectively/statistically) outcomes with more consequences than benefits. Statistically, "the weaknesses, issues, and the rest" suggest that our collective intellect should be used to help those considering this path understand the reality that comes with it. FWIW, having a family member who has worked for a med school that fills most of its residency spots with FMGs and IMGs, and having the opportunity to have talked to MANY of these residents over the years, I recall very few positive view points regarding medical education from pretty much every IMG.

 

[alpinism]

In 2018 there will be nearly 3000 more MD and DO grads in the match. That leaves around 13000 USIMGs and FMGs fighting for 3500 residency spots. Long odds IMO.

I just don't think 400k+ in debt is worth the relatively low chance of matching personally. The islands were a decent idea 15 years ago. Now, not so much. With the massive increase in US MD and DO enrollment, most students are much better off increasing their competitiveness and getting into a US school.

This.

Also, if you can't manage a 3.3/25 (which will get you into some of the newer DO schools) you probably shouldn't be going to med school.

 

[Muffinho]

That's where I have to strongly disagree. I have had people who graduated college at 21 with under 3.0 GPA who 10-20 years later, even with redoing so much work, often at 3.7 and above still get cut do to overall GPA. In fact these are the students who have proven themselves to work so hard in school even if jobs, family, etc. that they are the ones who understand that overseas schools require a massive amount of self starting. I have people who barely passed first two of college then got their act together with dean's list work and still couldn't get in.

Additionally, within the mass of off shore schools, the rates of success, USMLE, residency placement, reputation in the US, etc, vary tremendously across schools. And lastly, you still will have at minimum 3000-4000 doctors a year coming from off shore schools for the next 5 to 10 years. It is not a trivial amount as a percent of new PGY trainees each year

I'm kind of one of the people in your first paragraph. I completed a degree a few years ago with a terrible GPA, just barely getting by (2.0). I'm now sitting with about 70 credit hours of a 4.0 in mostly science courses (biochemistry degree), but my GPA is beyond repair. I work 20-30 hours a week and i'm still a competitive, amateur athlete. Someone like me has to consider the Caribbean. I'm lucky that Canadian schools are often more forgiving to non-traditional students, but I need to explore all my options.

 

[thegypsyqueen]

OP, you can't start a controversial thread topic and then say, "only say good stuff guiz about this super risky terrible option." You sound like a shill or someone who is actively trying to convince themself of something you know not to be true.

 

[WillburCobb]

Additionally, within the mass of off shore schools, the rates of success, And lastly, you still will have at minimum 3000-4000 doctors a year coming from off shore schools for the next 5 to 10 years. It is not a trivial amount as a percent of new PGY trainees each year

That's where I have to strongly disagree. I have had people who graduated college at 21 with under 3.0 GPA who 10-20 years later, even with redoing so much work, often at 3.7 and above still get cut do to overall GPA. In fact these are the students who have proven themselves to work so hard in school even if jobs, family, etc. that they are the ones who understand that overseas schools require a massive amount of self starting. I have people who barely passed first two of college then got their act together with dean's list work and still couldn't get in.

Additionally, within the mass of off shore schools, the rates of success, USMLE, residency placement, reputation in the US, etc, vary tremendously across schools. And lastly, you still will have at minimum 3000-4000 doctors a year coming from off shore schools for the next 5 to 10 years. It is not a trivial amount as a percent of new PGY trainees each year

You re-iterated your previous statement and failed to address anything I brought up. Quality argument.

 

[LMBLBM]

Wait.. i though SGU had a match rate of more than 90% in 2013

 

[Mad Jack]

No, I stated that people who started poorly but who then do very well later own or in postbaccs/SMP, often still dont get GPA high enough to be competitive. 2 years of 3.0 work or worse plus 2 years of 3.8 still is only 3.4. They have the academic ability as the last few years will show. Thus off shore schools are a choice. Indeed students who do well, still have competition and just the dynamics of the applicant pool that will keep good candidates from getting accepted. What are the levels of competition for a 3.5 candidate with a 29 MCAT? They are under 45% at best. What do you suggest to a guy who has applied twice and been rejected yet a school like Ross or SGU with match rates of 80%-85% and approved for loans accepts him or her. Yes these schools have higher rates of drop out, lower USMLE scores, etc. But there are many who graduate, do well on USMLE, get into decent residencies.

We can discuss the demographic of the applicant pool until we both need oxygen. Now try discussing single student. What do you? As an advocate, advisor, and analyst (of applicant pool demographics and dynamics of the admissions process) I need to see both the 30,000 foot level as well as ground level.

With DO grade replacement, anyone could conceivably land a DO spot with enough work. Unless they've got like, a PhD in horribleness with a GPA of 0.5.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

At that point why not just podiatry or something equally fulfilling?

Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

 

[chenzt]

No, I stated that people who started poorly but who then do very well later own or in postbaccs/SMP, often still dont get GPA high enough to be competitive. 2 years of 3.0 work or worse plus 2 years of 3.8 still is only 3.4. They have the academic ability as the last few years will show. Thus off shore schools are a choice. Indeed students who do well, still have competition and just the dynamics of the applicant pool that will keep good candidates from getting accepted. What are the levels of competition for a 3.5 candidate with a 29 MCAT? They are under 45% at best. What do you suggest to a guy who has applied twice and been rejected yet a school like Ross or SGU with match rates of 80%-85% and approved for loans accepts him or her. Yes these schools have higher rates of drop out, lower USMLE scores, etc. But there are many who graduate, do well on USMLE, get into decent residencies.

If they truly turned it around, shouldn't they also have decent MCAT scores to show for it? At what point do you tell an applicant that medicine is just not for them? Yes, 3-4000 seats to IMG are still significant, but out of 13000 people applying? Not to mention the mysterious attrition rate that the big 4 refuse to publish. Those are some huge risks, with no way to paying back the huge amounts of loans they have to take out for tuition if they land on the shorter end of the stick.

 

[mrh125]

I know two really good doctors who went to caribbean schools. One who is an absolutely brilliant ER doc and another that went on to be part of admissions programs at some really great schools' residency programs as a pediatrician. The Caribbean schools definitely allowed them to get in the door, granted it was during a way less competitive time than these days, so more opportunities were available. Today, the reality is probably is a lot harsher and I honestly wouldn't touch caribbean schools because from what I remember you have to have way way way way better stats than the average standard US MD to get into the residency programs you want. There's absolutely no point in going to a medical school and putting yourself through all those hoops and debt if you can't place into residency unless you have different plans, especially if it's like St George's (that school wanted me to attend their med school when I was a sophomore in high school, what happened to requiring an undergrad degree?).

 

[WingedOx]

Please be advised that the National Residency Match Program has indicated that roughly 50 percent of IMG matched in 2013.

Just remember not all IMG is caribbean.

However, there are over 30 Caribbean medical schools, which is not indicative of why the Caribbean route is bad. Currently there are the BIG 4, SGU, Ross, AUC, and SABA which has demonstrated excellent matches for their graduates.

That's a rather subjective term. If an LCME school had match rates similar rates to the ones published by the above schools, they'd lose their accreditation. Plus, premeds don't have the slightest idea how to judge what is or isn't a good match. Hell for most specialties outside of my own (plus a few others, I was undecided until late in the game) I couldn't tell you what is or isn't a good residency. A lot of people see a big academic name on a list but there are a lot of programs at big name institutions with really weak departments in certain specialties. A lot of "sexy" institutions have ****ty family med programs, for example. That's also why I had to laugh when I saw an ad somewhere for one of the Carib schools maybe on this site maybe on the subway... I see them everwhere bragging that they match someone at any Ivy.

Two were recently purchased by DeVry, a graduated school in the US that has done extremely well for their graduates and their company.

Are you f-cking kidding me? I don't see anyone on this board going to DeVry for their BS/BA... Hell I don't even see people taking classes there. I wonder why that is. 🙄

SDN and ValueMD has always indicated that the Caribbean route is a bad route. By indicating that graduating from a Caribbean Medical school = NO Residencies

A strawman that big could provide enough tinder to light the entire West Coast on fire.

and now the new excuse is that "It was okay to go the Caribbean route in the past, but it is not okay now because you will not find residencies." Very counterintuitive, so this is not true! Ignore all of the negatives on this forum because this route is still alive and it is still working. USMD and USDO schools tuition have increased exponentially, making the Caribbean route roughly the same price.

got some stats to back that up? Even if true, if you're paying the amount of money it costs to attend an LCME school, you'd better have the guarantee that you have an LCME guarantee of a medical career.

A article pushed in 1980s have indicated that the first round of SGU graduates to attend residencies in the US were one of the most hard working medical students the attending physicians have ever met. (Once I find the article again, I will post it)

As one of my interviewers from 1 of the BIG 4 has indicated to me about my concerns of residencies, "if that was true, I would not be here today."

🙄

 

[WillburCobb]

No, I stated that people who started poorly but who then do very well later own or in postbaccs/SMP, often still dont get GPA high enough to be competitive. 2 years of 3.0 work or worse plus 2 years of 3.8 still is only 3.4. They have the academic ability as the last few years will show. Thus off shore schools are a choice. Indeed students who do well, still have competition and just the dynamics of the applicant pool that will keep good candidates from getting accepted. What are the levels of competition for a 3.5 candidate with a 29 MCAT? They are under 45% at best. What do you suggest to a guy who has applied twice and been rejected yet a school like Ross or SGU with match rates of 80%-85% and approved for loans accepts him or her. Yes these schools have higher rates of drop out, lower USMLE scores, etc. But there are many who graduate, do well on USMLE, get into decent residencies.

We can discuss the demographic of the applicant pool until we both need oxygen. Now try discussing single student. What do you? As an advocate, advisor, and analyst (of applicant pool demographics and dynamics of the admissions process) I need to see both the 30,000 foot level as well as ground level.

@chenzt and @Mad Jack hit the nail on the head with this. Also, the stats you allude to would be fine for a number of DO programs, lest you have some glaring deficit; and the 45% you mentioned pertains to US MD schools only. You've been cherry picking your numbers any time you've brought them up in this thread.

 

[theseeker4]

Wait.. i though SGU had a match rate of more than 90% in 2013

Well, the best Caribbean schools match a high number, but that is after failing a large part of their class out, preventing them from taking the Step exam if they don't have high enough practice test scores, etc. and a good number of those matches are to preliminary intern-year spots, meaning they are not matching into actual 3+ year residencies that will allow the doctor to become an independently-practicing physician in the US unless they can secure a full residency position later on. That is the truth for the best of the Carib schools, remember......the lower-tier ones are even worse.

Having ~3,000 spots available for 13,000 IMG applicants (quoting numbers above) does NOT provide good chances at being a US physician; the chances of getting back to practice in the US are much worse than chances at admission to US MD schools for the random applicant, but when you are an IMG, you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and no way to pay it back. For these reasons, and others mentioned previously, I would never recommend the Caribbean as a viable option to anyone I cared about.

Sure, there will always be success stories, but that doesn't make it a good idea or a solid investment. Some people come out ahead after investing all their life savings in the slot machine at the casino, or in scratch-off tickets too.......

 

[Dires]

Here is the SGU match list: http://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2014

A lot of primary care residencies. Im not going to bother calculating the Categorical: prelim ratio, but it would be interesting to know. Huge class btw.

They had about 770 people match prelim and categorical. Not sure where this massive attrition rate rumor is coming from, but I calculated it to be around 5% in this years class. Even though this random website says 10% (http://www.medicalschoolsuccess.com/st-george-medical-school/).

Edit I did a quick calculation: 770 students match. 691 match categorical, 69 match prelim/took a transitional year (10%). Supposedly they have a class size of 800 meaning 86% match categorical somewhere. For a school that takes less qualified applicants, the numbers aren't bad. Not nearly as bad as what SDN makes them out to be.

 

[WillburCobb]

Here is the SGU match list: http://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2014

A lot of primary care residencies. Im not going to bother calculating the Categorical: prelim ratio, but it would be interesting to know. Huge class btw.

They had about 770 people match prelim and categorical. Not sure where this massive attrition rate rumor is coming from, but I calculated it to be around 5% in this years class. Even though this random website says 10% (http://www.medicalschoolsuccess.com/st-george-medical-school/).

The list more than likely includes people who matched after one or more failed cycles.

 

[Dires]

The list more than likely includes people who matched after one or more failed cycles.

Good point. Not exactly sure where that could be confirmed though. If they have this continually growing wave of transitional years applying each cycle that could distort the numbers.

Found this gem: "On average, 29% of our graduating classes obtain residencies not through the National Resident Match Program."

 

[WillburCobb]

Good point. Not exactly sure where that could be confirmed though. If they have this continually growing wave of transitional years applying each cycle that could distort the numbers.

Found this gem: "On average, 29% of our graduating classes obtain residencies not through the National Resident Match Program."

Confirming it would be difficult, however I'm aware of several US schools that do it, and given the Carib schools reputation for cooking the books and the insane class size it seems to fit.

 

[kyamh]

the chances of getting back to practice in the US are much worse than chances at admission to US MD schools for the random applicant

To be fair, this one part of your post isn't totally on. An applicant who falls in the lower 50% of MD applicants who doesn't make it in is still probably in a better place than plenty of students who go off shore for medical school. An applicant with a 3.1 and a 26 has no real chance for US MD but is still a competent (B) student and quite likely to do well enough to be in the 3k/13k.

Foreign medical graduates face additional barriers to getting into residency that we aren't talking about. My family lived in the US for 7 years before my mom learned English well enough to re-learn all the medical terms for the exams and got rid of her accent enough to come off well in interviews.

I'm not saying that I would gamble with huge loans like the Caribbean students do, but numbers are a little misleading and some of these schools can be viable options for many future good physicians.

 

[theseeker4]

To be fair, this one part of your post isn't totally on. An applicant who falls in the lower 50% of MD applicants who doesn't make it in is still probably in a better place than plenty of students who go off shore for medical school. An applicant with a 3.1 and a 26 has no real chance for US MD but is still a competent (B) student and quite likely to do well enough to be in the 3k/13k.

Foreign medical graduates face additional barriers to getting into residency that we aren't talking about. My family lived in the US for 7 years before my mom learned English well enough to re-learn all the medical terms for the exams and got rid of her accent enough to come off well in interviews.

I'm not saying that I would gamble with huge loans like the Caribbean students do, but numbers are a little misleading and some of these schools can be viable options for many future good physicians.

My point was simply a comparison of chances vs. cost. The US MD applicant has a better chance at gaining admission, with a much lower cost of failure, than the IMG trying to match to the US. I wasn't making a comment on who is more or less likely to succeed at Caribbean schools. I brought it up only because a lot of discussion occurs on these forums as to how hard it is to get into med school, and a lot of "what am I going to do if I don't get in?" Simply pointing out that as bad as that might be for US MD applicants, it is orders of magnitude worse for IMGs.

 

[WillburCobb]

The numbers in my thread are real and what I work with all day. I am not a student

I'm not denying that they're real, however you're not providing proper context with them - which can be misleading.

 

[theseeker4]

But they dont. There is this belief amongst premeds that will good enough GPA, MCAT, EC, PS, etc you will get in eventually. Sometimes it is simply the dynamics of the applicant pool, the enormous competition, and the numbers just dont fall their way. Like many phases of being a physicians, much of it is simply the luck of the. Acceptance to a medical school is not guaranteed, no matter the student's background. Choice of both what medical specialty and where your residency will be is also a luck of the draw. While USMLE is a big part of that, it is by no means the only factor. Finally after all that, where/if you might get a permanent position . Being at the top of your field for example ironically limits you in what position may be open to you. You may find, as one my colleagues has, a permanent director position in his field in Upstate NY while his family lives in a medium size southern city. Basically until someone in that city in his field, moves on, retires, or dies, he has no opportunity to live.

I have gotten off topic as again it appears that no one here can get past the undeniable fact the off shore schools are the least desirable place for a medical student to receive training. There is no disagreement. Yet this has dissolved into that any student who only has this route open to him or her a) its the person only fault for not making the cut to MD or DO and b) therefore isnt worthy to be a physician and is disparaged.

Nice straw-man argument there. I don't see much disparaging of the students (questioning whether most of them can handle the coursework of medical school if they haven't been able to handle that of undergrad is not disparaging, for the record), what I see is a lot of disparaging of the schools and their marketing. The latter is well deserved for the reasons listed above by multiple people. Whether and to whom to recommend the Caribbean route is being debated here, but a few people seem to be upset that this thread isn't just a rosy picture of "whoever can't make it into US schools should try Caribbean schools, don't worry about the crushing debt or the poor odds of ever practicing as a physician!"

 

[alpinism]

Here is the SGU match list: http://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2014

A lot of primary care residencies. Im not going to bother calculating the Categorical: prelim ratio, but it would be interesting to know. Huge class btw.

They had about 770 people match prelim and categorical. Not sure where this massive attrition rate rumor is coming from, but I calculated it to be around 5% in this years class. Even though this random website says 10% (http://www.medicalschoolsuccess.com/st-george-medical-school/).

Edit I did a quick calculation: 770 students match. 691 match categorical, 69 match prelim/took a transitional year (10%). Supposedly they have a class size of 800 meaning 86% match categorical somewhere. For a school that takes less qualified applicants, the numbers aren't bad. Not nearly as bad as what SDN makes them out to be.

The big 4 schools have a new entering class every semester. Each class may have as many as 500 new students or more. If you look on FB, the Ross University Jan 2013 entering class group has 640 members (which likely has people from other classes but that's still a huge number). That means they have as many as 1,500+ new students per year.

770/1,500+ is a horrible match rate. And, that's not even taking into account people who had 1 or more failed cycles. Not to mention most of those matches are in primary care at highly undesirable programs in bad locations. Even more important is the fact that its only going to get worse in the next few years.

 

[DK2014]

If the Carribean is really as nice as you claim OP, why don't more people apply to them?

 

[Plecopotamus]

The numbers in my thread are real and what I work with all day. I am not a student

. . . a school like Ross or SGU with match rates of 80%-85% and approved for loans.

I understand your overall point: some people just don't have any other options open to them and you think they can be successful.

However, unless you're the one cooking the books for all of these programs, you have no way of knowing whether these numbers are real with or without the smug reminder that you are not a student. Do you just trust what the programs tell you? Have you talked to anybody after you've sent them there? I haven't met a student or grad of one of these programs who even trusts them that much.

These schools are not transparent about how many students they are kicking out due to academic performance, how many students withdraw, how many students they aren't allowing to take board exams, how many students fail their boards, how many match by NRMP vs SOAP vs get a residency at piss poor programs outside match/soap, how many students never get into anything beyond a prelim or transitional year and can never practice (but hey, they matched!), or who never matched after multiple attempts.

Your support of these students who go to the Caribbean would be no big deal if they were footing the bill -- I would support their right to try to prove they can become a doctor, just as you are doing. However, SGU, Ross, and AUC are taking about half a billion dollars in student loans every year that our country will not get back to the same extent they will be repaid by US MD and DO graduates. These schools are using our taxpayer money to profit by intentionally admitting people they know will not make it through preclinical years. Rather than kicking people out (who will never have a medical career to pay back student loans -- what do you do with half an MD?), they should be more strictly regulating who they admit or stop accepting federal student loans for students who are unlikely to succeed. That would be the honest thing to do. And it would be honest to be transparent about numbers, so that applicants truly know their chance of burdening themselves with debt without the ability to pay it back.

 

[drcrispmd]

I'm regards to SGU match list. Those are the people who matched this year. It does not say when they graduated and it does not say how many entered the match. Both would be good information to include.
At SGU there are a number of students who are from the Caribbean and stay in the Caribbean after finishing medical school. Also there are ones from Africa who return to Africa after graduation. Some are from the UK and return there. SGU has clinical centers in the UK that students are allowed to rotate through if they wish. So you can't say X number graduated and only x number matched. Some of those prelim have advanced placements and you will need to go to the 2015 and click on pgy 2 to view those. SGU give a more complete match list online than most of the Carib schools.

 

[Plecopotamus]

The big 4 schools have a new entering class every semester. Each class may have as many as 500 new students or more. If you look on FB, the Ross University Jan 2013 entering class group has 640 members (which likely has people from other classes but that's still a huge number). That means they have as many as 1,500+ new students per year.

770/1,500+ is a horrible match rate. And, that's not even taking into account people who had 1 or more failed cycles. Not to mention most of those matches are in primary care at highly undesirable programs in bad locations. Even more important is the fact that its only going to get worse in the next few years.

I'm not pro Caribbean by any means, but don't forget there are plenty of students in these schools from other countries and who never apply to US or Canadian residencies and thus would not be listed on that page.

 

[WillburCobb]

and SGU itself reports an NRMP match rate of just 29% . . . far less than half the 80-85% you posted as "real"
http://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2014

The 29% is actually the number of students who land non-NRMP spots "On average, 29% of our graduating classes obtain residencies not through the National Resident Match Program."

 

[Plecopotamus]

The 29% is actually the number of students who land non-NRMP spots "On average, 29% of our graduating classes obtain residencies not through the National Resident Match Program."

Thank you for catching that.

 

[Dires]

The big 4 schools have a new entering class every semester. Each class may have as many as 500 new students or more. If you look on FB, the Ross University Jan 2013 entering class group has 640 members (which likely has people from other classes but that's still a huge number). That means they have as many as 1,500+ new students per year.

770/1,500+ is a horrible match rate. And, that's not even taking into account people who had 1 or more failed cycles. Not to mention most of those matches are in primary care at highly undesirable programs in bad locations. Even more important is the fact that its only going to get worse in the next few years.

I haven't found anywhere that has said Ross' class size is over 1500...

So you're saying that more US grads will start ranking those primary care residencies at highly undesirable programs in bad locations? I hope you're right otherwise we will be the ones ending up unmatched.