the debt......

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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egil_skallagrimsson

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I am crunching numbers, and I just don't think it is possible for me to afford medical school unless I am missing something. I will have zero assistance from family and undergraduate debt. Given the tuition increases I can't possibly see how I could handle the debt burden unless I was making 400k a year. From my calculations, even at the more affordable schools, I would be loaning 60-70k per year on top of 80k in undergraduate debt. Over 4 years of schooling and 4 years of residency the 80k accrues 25k in interest, and the medical school debt accrues 100k. A conservative estimate leaves me with 450k in debt. But I'm looking at schools and most seem to be in the 70k range total. That would easily put me in the 550k range. How do new students afford this? Do students like me get grants or need-based scholarships often? If you end up in a specialty that makes under 200k a year (is this easily avoided?) you are looking at making 40k to 50k a year after taxes for 10 years. That margin is WAY too small for someone with a debt burden that high. I mean, passion can become stupidity at some point, right? Are current students really loaning this much or am I way poorer than I thought?
 
gyngyn said:
No, they are borrowing this much, though.
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loan
lōn/
verb
gerund or present participle: loaning
  1. borrow (a sum of money or item of property).
    "the word processor was loaned to us by the theater"
    synonyms: lend, advance, give credit;
    give on loan, lease, charter

    You mean like that? Kinda like how people don't realize inflammable means flammable. 😉 Your pedantry is much appreciated though.
So back to the topic at hand. Do most of these students 1) realize how little they will make 2) bank on getting into high paying specialties? Also is need based aid given out with any significant frequency? I realize one should be passionate about medicine and I guess everyone has different comfort levels financially speaking, but I'm just wondering if a significant amount of students are currently *borrowing* 500k+ knowing full well they will be making only 50k a year until they are 40
 
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Some students, like yourself, will and do borrow that much. Others will borrow less. I purposefully attended a state school for undergrad to avoid going into debt, knowing that medical school will cost quite a bit of money. If you're fortunate enough to be admitted/choose to matriculate to your state school, then that also can lower your debt burden.

I can reasonably say that your scenario of 500k is not the norm, for various reasons. Many med students come from affluent backgrounds with significant financial support from family, lowering their debt burden. Or they had their undergraduate educations paid for, in part or in full. Some schools are generous with need based aid, or merit based aid.

The expected debt is something every applicant should take a look at to determine whether or not this career is feasible. I can tell you I will not have anywhere near 500k in debt, but that's a result of zero undergraduate debt and being fortunate enough to be accepted to a state medical school as well.
 
egil_skallagrimsson said:
loan
lōn/
verb
gerund or present participle: loaning
  1. borrow (a sum of money or item of property).
    "the word processor was loaned to us by the theater"
    synonyms: lend, advance, give credit;
    give on loan, lease, charter

    You mean like that? Kinda like how people don't realize inflammable means flammable. 😉 Your pedantry is much appreciated though.
So back to the topic at hand. Do most of these students 1) realize how little they will make 2) bank on getting into high paying specialties? Also is need based aid given out with any significant frequency? I realize one should be passionate about medicine and I guess everyone has different comfort levels financially speaking, but I'm just wondering if a significant amount of students are currently *borrowing* 500k+ knowing full well they will be making only 50k a year until they are 40
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that's why there are loan forgiveness programs, private scholarships (need & merit), school based scholarships, military route, other service related route

Your Google definition of loan is inadequate. Loan as a verb is used from perspective of people doing the lending. Borrowing is from people receiving the money.
 
Little bit of hostility on here with regard to this topic I see. As someone who pretty much had to loan the full cost of his undergrad I sympathize with all of you loaning these 400k + amounts so I don't get the hostility. My parents are factory workers and couldn't contribute much to my schooling. I went to one of those supposedly "cheap" state schools too and lived like an ascetic for 4 years and still racked up considerable debt. But hey America the beautiful, am I right?

Anyway, my verbal is fine, more than fine actually, but I appreciate your concern. If Google says it you best obey.

If tuition keeps increasing at the current rate it appears my loan amount will be the norm even for people with zero undergraduate debt. Hopefully it stops increasing.

So, I realize there is need-based aid out there, but again what percentage of people from low income families receive these? Do they only go to top applicants and are the amounts generally significant? $2000 a year is great and all, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the total loan amount. So assuming I have a decent application 3.8 GPA 31-33 MCAT, do I have a good shot at these?

As for the military option, assuming an acceptance is this a done deal if you meet the physical requirements? Or is it competitive? I heard you don't get any choice in which specialty you train in, is this true?

I'm just trying to evaluate if this is even financially feasible before I throw myself into this venture. The process is emotionally draining and expensive for someone who is already dirt poor. I calculated the IBR option and that seems like a definite no go. My choices thus far are 1) merit based aid/grants/scholarships 2) military 3) public service forgiveness (wondering if this will even be around in 10 years)
 
egil_skallagrimsson said:
Little bit of hostility on here with regard to this topic I see. As someone who pretty much had to loan the full cost of his undergrad I sympathize with all of you loaning these 400k + amounts so I don't get the hostility. My parents are factory workers and couldn't contribute much to my schooling. I went to one of those supposedly "cheap" state schools too and lived like an ascetic for 4 years and still racked up considerable debt. But hey America the beautiful, am I right?

Anyway, my verbal is fine, more than fine actually, but I appreciate your concern. If Google says it you best obey.

If tuition keeps increasing at the current rate it appears my loan amount will be the norm even for people with zero undergraduate debt. Hopefully it stops increasing.

So, I realize there is need-based aid out there, but again what percentage of people from low income families receive these? Do they only go to top applicants and are the amounts generally significant? $2000 a year is great and all, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the total loan amount. So assuming I have a decent application 3.8 GPA 31-33 MCAT, do I have a good shot at these?

As for the military option, assuming an acceptance is this a done deal if you meet the physical requirements? Or is it competitive? I heard you don't get any choice in which specialty you train in, is this true?

I'm just trying to evaluate if this is even financially feasible before I throw myself into this venture. The process is emotionally draining and expensive for someone who is already dirt poor. I calculated the IBR option and that seems like a definite no go. My choices thus far are 1) merit based aid/grants/scholarships 2) military 3) public service forgiveness (wondering if this will even be around in 10 years)
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i think for most school, need base is purely need based, not dependent on your stats.

more on military (i dont think you are limited to which specialty): http://www.goarmy.com/amedd/education/hpsp.html

other free ways for med schools:
http://www.usnews.com/education/bes.../10/14/how-to-go-to-medical-school-for-free-2
 
borrow (a sum of money or item of property).
"the word processor was loaned to us by the theater"
synonyms: lend, advance, give credit;
give on loan, lease, charter

You mean like that? Kinda like how people don't realize inflammable means flammable. Your pedantry is much appreciated though.
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Read the definition again:" the word processor was LOANED TO US". Not "we loaned it from them".
Similarly, this is correct: The bank loans ( or lends ) money to borrowers. People borrow money from the bank.

This is NOT correct : "the bank borrows money to people. People loan money from the bank." The italicised is simply incorrect in the English language.

http://www.learnenglish.de/mistakes/borrowvslend.html
Common Mistakes and Confusing Words in English

If you want the dictionary definition, just double click on any word.
borrow vs lend
To lend:
Meaning: to hand out usually for a certain length of time.
Banks lend money.
Libraries lend books.
For example: "My mother lent me some money, and I must pay her back soon."
To borrow:
Meaning: to take with permission usually for a certain length of time.
You can borrow money from a bank to buy a house or a car.
You can borrow books for up to 4 weeks from libraries in England.
For example: "I borrowed some money off my mother, and I must pay her back soon."
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Why do you not accept simple, accurate advice? Yes, it's SDN, where every premed knows more than anyone else.

I just don't think it is possible for me to afford medical school
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You're right. It's too much to borrow. You shouldn't go to medical school.
 
You're not loaning $60-70k per year, you are borrowing that amount from the bank.

As to whether it will be worth it or not, only you can determine if it is or isn't.
 
Are we really hammering this guy on grammar instead of answering his completely valid question that could sway a decision as important as his career choice? I'll never fully understand this forum....

Op, if you are worried about making the financials work, take a look at this book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0991433106/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/177-1582724-3822860

The author also has a website that offers some more complex strategies.
 
1) Incorrect use of loan - nice job being a dick to a practicing physician and adcom member, though.

2) You can look this stuff up yourself or search the forum for the million other threads that have been posted with this identical question.

3) Yes, most people "loan" all of this money. There's a small majority of people that come from relatively affluent families that are able to have some to all of their costs paid for. A common thing that I see is that parents will buy real estate for their kids to live in during med school. This saves money for them in terms of living costs while also giving them a potential investment in the future after the kids don't live there anymore.

4) Yes, a small majority of students will receive scholarships that cover variable portions of the cost of attendance for a school.

5) Don't go to a school that will require you to "loan" $70-80k per year to attend. It's that simple. Yes, this might mean that you don't get to go to your "dream school." But if financials are that important to you, it's a sacrifice you'll have to make.

6) Look into the PSLF. This program allows you to have your debt forgiven after a certain number of years and assuming you make payments during that time if you work for a non-profit. In general, residency is included within that time; this can be an especially useful program if you're planning on going into a field that has a long residency period. That said, it's a government program, so given the political climate who knows whether it'll still be around.

7) It's not uncommon to have variable degrees of loan forgiveness included in the benefits for a position once you're an attending, particularly in the private sector. Loan forgiveness usually works by paying you a lump sum or an additional amount per year above your salary that is designed to go off to paying your loans.
 
I appreciate the advice from those of you who took the time to actually answer my questions.

As with most things in language it isn't cut and dry. What I said is perfectly acceptable colloquial usage. I wasn't writing a dissertation, but thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_with_disputed_usage

In case anyone was interested
  • loan – The use of loan as a verb meaning "to give out a loan" is disputed, with lend being preferred for the verb form. AHD4 flatly states "[t]he verb loan is well established in American usage and cannot be considered incorrect";[77] M-W states "...loan is entirely standard as a verb".[78] RH says "Sometimes mistakenly identified as an Americanism, loan as a verb meaning "to lend" has been used in English for nearly 800 years"; it further states that objections to this use "are comparatively recent".[79] Chambers defines the verb loan as "to lend (especially money)".[80] OED merely states "Now chiefly U.S.",[81] and COD11 includes the meaning without tag or comment.
    • Undisputed usage. I lent him some money.
    • Undisputed usage. Fill out the paperwork for a loan.
    • Disputed usage. I loaned him some money.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/loan

I wouldn't go to a school that had a 70-80k CoA, but it does significantly narrow my options and chances given the number of schools that charge this much in the state I reside in.

It seems there is a lot of guesswork in estimating the cost, but there are quite a few options out there. I appreciate the responses everyone.
 
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You can't seriously be arguing that loan is interchangeable with borrow.

Anyways assuming you have 550k in debt at 6.8%, you'd need to pay $6329 per month to pay off the loan in 10 years.

Assuming you go into a lower paying specialty and make 200k per year pretax with around a 30% overall tax rate (your interest on the loan should reduce your tax burden), you're taking home $140k.

Subtract loan payments and that leaves you with $64k take home pay.

Are you telling me you cannot fathom how to live on 64k per year or that you're too good to live on only 64k per year?
 
egil_skallagrimsson said:
I appreciate the advice from those of you who took the time to actually answer my questions.

As with most things in language it isn't cut and dry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_with_disputed_usage

In case anyone was interested
  • loan – The use of loan as a verb meaning "to give out a loan" is disputed, with lend being preferred for the verb form. AHD4 flatly states "[t]he verb loan is well established in American usage and cannot be considered incorrect";[77] M-W states "...loan is entirely standard as a verb".[78] RH says "Sometimes mistakenly identified as an Americanism, loan as a verb meaning "to lend" has been used in English for nearly 800 years"; it further states that objections to this use "are comparatively recent".[79] Chambers defines the verb loan as "to lend (especially money)".[80] OED merely states "Now chiefly U.S.",[81] and COD11 includes the meaning without tag or comment.
    • Undisputed usage. I lent him some money.
    • Undisputed usage. Fill out the paperwork for a loan.
    • Disputed usage. I loaned him some money.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/loan

I wouldn't go to a school that had a 70-80k CoA, but it does significantly narrow my options and chances given the number of schools that charge this much in the state I reside in.

It seems there is a lot of guesswork in estimating the cost, but there are quite a few options out there. I appreciate the responses everyone.
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Clearly still not getting it. There is no issue using loan as a verb and no one would dispute you saying the bank loaned you the money to attend school. To state "I would be loaning 60-70K..." and mean that someone else is giving you 60-70K instead of you giving 60-70K to someone else is unequivocally incorrect.
 
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LuluLovesMe said:
Subtract loan payments and that leaves you with $64k take home pay.

Are you telling me you cannot fathom how to live on 64k per year or that you're too good to live on only 64k per year?
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I live on about 300 dollars a month currently so I don't really think I'm too good for anything more than that at the moment, but again I appreciate the kind response. My estimate was closer to 50k a year. I believe the maximum tax deductible you can claim on student loan interest is around $2500 per year. Coming out of school with no savings and 500k in debt and not accounting for all of life's surprises, 50k a year seems risky, but again that's more than my parents ever made, but they weren't in the hole half a million.
 
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Glandzburg said:
Are we really hammering this guy on grammar instead of answering his completely valid question that could sway a decision as important as his career choice? I'll never fully understand this forum....

Op, if you are worried about making the financials work, take a look at this book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0991433106/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/177-1582724-3822860

The author also has a website that offers some more complex strategies.
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I agree. Yes it could have been handled better but disputing semantics of language this much is helping no one.

OP, keep in mind there are numerous scholarship and loan forgiveness options. You wouldn't happen to be interested in primary care would you?

SweetFast said:
I was just joking at first about the 6 in VR, but I might have overestimated
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Please. This helps nothing and is unnecessary.
 
claduva94 said:
I agree. Yes it could have been handled better but disputing semantics of language this much is helping no one.

OP, keep in mind there are numerous scholarship and loan forgiveness options. You wouldn't happen to be interested in primary care would you?
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At this point, not particularly. I'm more interested in radiology, but I realize this is one of the more competitive specialties at the moment. I guess my hangup is assuming that these forgiveness options will be around in the future. A lot can happen in 10 years. Scholarships sound like a great option, but again, no one has really given a clear answer on how much these commonly amount to (not that a clear answer is possible).
 
If you're THAT concerned about the debt, then consider the HPSP scholarship from the Army, Navy, or Air Force. But just a word of advice, don't go into it just to be debt free. You will be forced into a 1-2 year medical tour (that does count towards your payback) that literally stops you from doing your residency training. Even if you don't do a medical tour, your payback is done post-residency training. So, if you were accepted into the HPSP scholarship (4-year payback) and decide to be a general surgeon, you'd be a doctor in the military for 9 years (5 years of training, 4 years of payback.)
 
I would suggest the NHSC if you were interested in primary care. The problem is that the scholarships vary a lot, but they are often reserved for superstars or people committing to primary care. But yes i do understand your concern about loan forgiveness options going away. I certainly do too.
 
FutureOncologist said:
If you're THAT concerned about the debt, then consider the HPSP scholarship from the Army, Navy, or Air Force. But just a word of advice, don't go into it just to be debt free. You will be forced into a 1-2 year medical tour (that does count towards your payback) that literally stops you from doing your residency training. Even if you don't do a medical tour, your payback is done post-residency training. So, if you were accepted into the HPSP scholarship (4-year payback) and decide to be a general surgeon, you'd be a doctor in the military for 9 years (5 years of training, 4 years of payback.)
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I'm not concerned with debt in general, but too much debt. I think for me, going over 400k or so starts to become a psychological burden. I'm thinking working for another 5 years and paying off my current loans (and seeing how this tuition crisis plays out) might be my best option. And yeah, I was told HPSP is a bad option if you just want free tuition.
 
egil_skallagrimsson said:
I'm not concerned with debt in general, but too much debt. I think for me, going over 400k or so starts to become a psychological burden. I'm thinking working for another 5 years and paying off my current loans (and seeing how this tuition crisis plays out) might be my best option. And yeah, I was told HPSP is a bad option if you just want free tuition.
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There are other options. My school gives 30 people each year (had to apply for it sophomore year) a free ride if they stayed in a rural area and worked there for 4 years to provide healthcare where ever the state needed you.

Also, my whole family was in the marines so military has always fascinated me. I honestly like the lifestyle (had a taste of it when I was younger) so it wasn't a huge deal for me knowing I could be relocated/do a tour away from home. It will be hard for matching next year seeing as how she isn't in the military.

If you're that afraid of the debt, then I might suggest going to PA school. Less schooling and there is no residency training. You get a starting salary (~70k - 90k, depending on your state) and can pay off the debt easily in years.
 
egil_skallagrimsson said:
loan
lōn/
verb
gerund or present participle: loaning
  1. borrow (a sum of money or item of property).
    "the word processor was loaned to us by the theater"
    synonyms: lend, advance, give credit;
    give on loan, lease, charter

    You mean like that? Kinda like how people don't realize inflammable means flammable. 😉 Your pedantry is much appreciated though.
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It was not my intent to disparage. Forgive me if I offended. People who have the power of two languages are in an enviable position and I value them highly. It was my observation that your phraseology implies the opposite of your intent. When I do this in a secondary language, I am honored when the listener or reader gently points it out. With regard to your concern regarding financing, average debt for medical school is often well over $250 K. It varies by school.
 
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Are we really hammering this guy on grammar instead of answering his completely valid question that could sway a decision as important as his career choice? I'll never fully understand this forum....
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Maybe this will help "explain this forum", at least how I see it.
I post on here because I think that my years of experience will help younger applicants and doctors succeed. At the same time, I don't want to encourage people who are unsuitable.

So, let's look at OP. He's someone who is making a mistake. This is not debatable. Perhaps English is not his first language. Maybe it is, and somehow he made it all the way to college without learning the difference between borrow and loan. That's not a big deal. However, after being corrected multiple times, in painful detail, he still refuses to acknowledge his mistake. Is the mistake a big deal? No . Is his response concerning to me? Very much so. Here's a guy, who after being shown several times that he made a mistake, refuses to take correction. He is on an anonymous forum, where he doesn't risk personal embarassment, and he still refuses to accept that he made a mistake. Do you see how this will play out when he's an intern? When he insists that the correct dose of a medication is not 5 micrograms, but 5 milligrams? When he insists that potassium should be given IV push, instead of in a drip? ( yes, I saw someone do that after being told not to). This is why MMIs interviews have a "give and receive " station, where students give each other instructions on how to do a task, such as tying a knot or drawing a picture, while seated back to back. They are scored on their ability to take direction, give direction, and give and receive feedback. This skill is essential in medicine, where you will be both giving and taking instruction on how to do procedures, such as starting IVs, putting in central lines, intubating, and doing surgical procedures. Can you picture someone like this being directed to put in a central line, and his response when he's told that he's doing it wrong? He will be equally dangerous as a PA, a nurse, an OR tech, or a medical assistant. Why would you encourage someone like that to go to medical school? Just ignore him. I don't want any share of the responsibility for encouraging him to go into health care.

And no, I don't think I'm making too much of big deal about it. Not after he argues after 5+ different people have corrected him, most politely, and with examples.
 
gyngyn said:
It was not my intent to disparage. Forgive me if I offended. People who have the power of two languages are in an enviable position and I value them highly. It was my observation that your phraseology implies the opposite of your intent. When I do this in a secondary language, I am honored when the listener or reader gently points it out. With regard to your concern regarding financing, average debt for medical school is often well over $250 K. It varies by school.
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I asked some questions and instead of a response to the vast majority of those questions, it appeared you (and half the posters on here, apparently) seized on a trivial and irrelevant detail instead. If this wasn't your intent then I apologize for the misunderstanding. But it certainly wasn't my intent to come across as a "dick" in my response as one user so nicely put it. I don't get offended by random internet conversations.

As for the person extrapolating about my potential as a future physician based on one internet forum post, little scary.
 
egil_skallagrimsson said:
That's like, the definition of a colloquialism if I'm not mistaken.
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You are mistaken. You're using the wrong word. Saying "lend" instead of "loan" would be a colloquialism. "Loan" does not mean "to borrow." I LOAN YOU THE MONEY. YOU BORROW THE MONEY FROM ME.
 
You've gotten some good advice in this thread. In the end, only you can determine whether it's worth it to take on this amount of debt.

However trivial it may seem, your choice of wording completely changes the meaning of what you were asking. While we understand what you were asking based on context, it would behoove you to take the correction so that you don't inadvertently use a word incorrectly when it would really matter.
 
egil_skallagrimsson said:
I asked some questions and instead of a response to the vast majority of those questions, it appeared you (and half the posters on here, apparently) seized on a trivial and irrelevant detail instead. If this wasn't your intent then I apologize for the misunderstanding. But it certainly wasn't my intent to come across as a "dick" in my response as one user so nicely put it. I don't get offended by random internet conversations.

As for the person extrapolating about my potential as a future physician based on one internet forum post, little scary.
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No one would have said anything about your misuse of a word if you didn't respond like an immature d*******g. You have an attitude problem. Should worry about that before you worry about how much school will cost.
 
ImageUploadedBySDN Mobile1421533351.859452.jpg
 
OP, you look like a blathering idiot with your incorrect use of the word 'loan'.

However, I'll help you anyway with your financial question. Let's start with your higher possible debt figure of $550k. Using this debt repayment calculator, I calculate that you would accumulate $216,314 in interest over a 10-year repayment period. That leaves you with a total debt of $766,314. Your annual payment would be $76,631. However, there's the tax question. Assuming a tax burden of 33%, the amount of pretax income that you would have to dedicate to this would be approximately $114,947. If you go into one of the noncompetitive specialties like pediatrics or internal medicine, you can expect to bring home around $200k in pretax income. Subtracting your anticipated debt repayment cost, you would be living on the equivalent of a salary of $85,052 for 10 years.

So why does my $85k/year salary figure look significantly higher than the other estimates above? Because psychologically, if someone tells you that you're receiving only $56,700/year in aftertax income, you immediately compare that to someone who is earning $56,700 in pretax income. That's the problem. Would you ever associate a $85k/year salary with financial hardship? Of course not. I made that much before going to med school and owned my own house, had a luxury car, and took frequent vacations.

So to get on my soapbox for a second, we should all always calculate anticipated remaining income after debt payment in terms of pretax income, rather than take-home pay, for the reasons listed above. If you do otherwise, you're essentially counting the tax twice -- once mathematically, and once psychologically.

By the way, your suggestion to work in another field for a few years in order to accumulate money is the worst possible thing you could do. Your anticipated medical salary is around $200k per year. The debt is a cost that must be paid either way, so if you're not making more than $200k/year in your other line of work, you're potentially losing a vast quantity of money.
 
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egil_skallagrimsson said:
I appreciate the advice from those of you who took the time to actually answer my questions.

As with most things in language it isn't cut and dry. What I said is perfectly acceptable colloquial usage. I wasn't writing a dissertation.
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Your usage of the word "loan" isn't even correct in an informal context. Not even close.

And the correct phrase is "cut and dried."
 
egil_skallagrimsson said:
I asked some questions and instead of a response to the vast majority of those questions, it appeared you (and half the posters on here, apparently) seized on a trivial and irrelevant detail instead. If this wasn't your intent then I apologize for the misunderstanding. But it certainly wasn't my intent to come across as a "dick" in my response as one user so nicely put it. I don't get offended by random internet conversations.

As for the person extrapolating about my potential as a future physician based on one internet forum post, little scary.
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Dude, you're only getting so much **** about it because of your stubbornness. Here you have a room filled with highly-educated and highly-intelligent people telling you that your word-usage is wrong. Language isn't about merely complying with technical dictionary definitions that you find online; it's about conveying a message clearly and unambiguously to an audience. When you use a word in a fashion that is highly uncommon, and causes people to stop and question whether you're loaning out $550k or borrowing $550k, you're using that word 'incorrectly'.

The point about your not-existent willingness to accept feedback is valid. Medicine is one of the few careers where we have to be continuously open to criticism, and adjust our actions and opinions based on feedback that we get from others. In these situations, just say something like "Alright guys, perhaps I was mistaken" and move on.
 
beachside said:
However, I'll help you anyway with your financial question. Let's start with your higher possible debt figure of $550k. Using this debt repayment calculator, I calculate that you would accumulate $216,314 in interest over a 10-year repayment period. That leaves you with a total debt of $766,314. Your annual payment would be $76,631. However, there's the tax question. Assuming a tax burden of 33%, the amount of pretax income that you would have to dedicate to this would be approximately $114,947. If you go into one of the noncompetitive specialties like pediatrics or internal medicine, you can expect to bring home around $200k in pretax income. Subtracting your anticipated debt repayment cost, you would be living on the equivalent of a salary of $85,052 for 10 years.

So why does my $85k/year salary figure look significantly higher than the other estimates here? Because psychologically, if someone tells you that you're receiving only $56,700/year in aftertax income, you immediately compare that to someone who is earning $56,700 in pretax income. That's the problem. Would you ever associate a $85k/year salary with financial hardship? Of course not. I made that much before going to med school and owned my own house, had a luxury car, and took frequent vacations.

So to get on my soapbox for a second, we should all always calculate anticipated remaining income after debt payment in terms of pretax income rather than take-home pay, for the reasons listed above. If you do otherwise, you're essentially counting the tax twice -- once mathematically, and once psychologically.
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Yeah, I actually calculated both, but there definitely is a psychological factor to viewing the numbers. I created an excel spreadsheet that does the calculations so I can easily compare across specialties and other careers.

By the way, your suggestion to work in another field for a few years in order to accumulate money is the worst possible thing you could do. Your anticipated medical salary is around $200k. The debt is a cost that must be paid either way, so if you're not making more than $200k in your other line of work, you're potentially losing a vast quantity of money.
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Good point.
 
bc65 said:
Maybe this will help "explain this forum", at least how I see it.
I post on here because I think that my years of experience will help younger applicants and doctors succeed. At the same time, I don't want to encourage people who are unsuitable.

So, let's look at OP. He's someone who is making a mistake. This is not debatable. Perhaps English is not his first language. Maybe it is, and somehow he made it all the way to college without learning the difference between borrow and loan. That's not a big deal. However, after being corrected multiple times, in painful detail, he still refuses to acknowledge his mistake. Is the mistake a big deal? No . Is his response concerning to me? Very much so. Here's a guy, who after being shown several times that he made a mistake, refuses to take correction. He is on an anonymous forum, where he doesn't risk personal embarassment, and he still refuses to accept that he made a mistake. Do you see how this will play out when he's an intern? When he insists that the correct dose of a medication is not 5 micrograms, but 5 milligrams? When he insists that potassium should be given IV push, instead of in a drip? ( yes, I saw someone do that after being told not to). This is why MMIs interviews have a "give and receive " station, where students give each other instructions on how to do a task, such as tying a knot or drawing a picture, while seated back to back. They are scored on their ability to take direction, give direction, and give and receive feedback. This skill is essential in medicine, where you will be both giving and taking instruction on how to do procedures, such as starting IVs, putting in central lines, intubating, and doing surgical procedures. Can you picture someone like this being directed to put in a central line, and his response when he's told that he's doing it wrong? He will be equally dangerous as a PA, a nurse, an OR tech, or a medical assistant. Why would you encourage someone like that to go to medical school? Just ignore him. I don't want any share of the responsibility for encouraging him to go into health care.

And no, I don't think I'm making too much of big deal about it. Not after he argues after 5+ different people have corrected him, most politely, and with examples.
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My point was that, instead of addressing the legitimate question that was asked, people attacked his grammar. Who hasn't made a grammar mistake on the internet? And somehow you equated his failure to take ownership of this mistake with him becoming a reckless intern that will listen to nobody. Sheesh... I wonder what kind of subliminal messages I am giving off in my posts.

All I'm saying is, perhaps we should all turn the intensity down a notch on internet forums.
 
My point was that, instead of addressing the legitimate question that was asked, people attacked his grammar. Who hasn't made a grammar mistake on the internet? And somehow you equated his failure to take ownership of this mistake with him becoming a reckless intern that will listen to nobody. Sheesh... I wonder what kind of subliminal messages I am giving off in my posts.

All I'm saying is, perhaps we should all turn the intensity down a notch on internet forums
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I know what you were saying, and I was in no way was criticising you. If you read my reply that way I apologize. I was just trying to give a straightforward answer to your ( rhetorical ) question.
You asked., "Why was he being attacked? " My answer: because his replies were inappropriate, time after time. NOT because he made a usage error.

Let me put it this way: If that sort of behavior were described in a letter of recommendation ("applicant refuses to take criticism, rejects facts that prove him wrong, will never admit to errors"), he would be rejected from everywhere he applied.

I'm not trying to beat this to death. I'm just addressing your questions.

I wonder what kind of subliminal messages I am giving off in my posts
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Don't worry. His posts were not "subliminal ".
 
Glandzburg said:
My point was that, instead of addressing the legitimate question that was asked, people attacked his grammar. Who hasn't made a grammar mistake on the internet? And somehow you equated his failure to take ownership of this mistake with him becoming a reckless intern that will listen to nobody. Sheesh... I wonder what kind of subliminal messages I am giving off in my posts.

All I'm saying is, perhaps we should all turn the intensity down a notch on internet forums.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but then again perhaps we should turn the intensity up on people spending a few minutes on the Google answering a question that has been asked, discussed, and answered ad nauseam. That and the OP's response to such a benign comment is pretty weak. Why come here and ask questions if you're just going to be a dick? No one likes that guy.
 
I think it's pretty clear that there are multiple layers to this whole loan thing. It started as a benign grammar mistake that more then likely was pointed out because it appeared to be a funny brain fart.

Upon further comment from the OP, it appeared that the what really happened is at his core he is a stubborn fool who never learned how to take constructive criticism and accept when he is wrong.


So while the original argument of the actual grammar usage could have gone without comment to begin with, it happened. The situation propagated by OP's unwavering desire to save face by trying to say well technically I am correct.

If you are concerned about the inordinate amount of debt you may take on, consider pharmacy school. They like to practice medicine based on paper too.

Loan can be used as a verb. It does not change the fact that the lender loans money to a borrower (you were LOANED money, you didn't loan the money). By definition, - a borrower borrows money from a lender. There is no other option to this definition.

Finally, colloquial does not mean "usage of incorrect verbiage" it is merely informal use that is still generally accepted. Incorrect is not disputed or accepted by anyone. It is just plain wrong.


What is sad is, personally I could not have cared less about you making the mistake originally, and what's more I felt bad about all the debt you were contemplating on taking on. But your responses were in such bad taste that it left me hoping that in the end you find the debt to be insurmountable and do not enter this field.

Tl;dr - pharmacy school is calling.
 
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However, I'll help you anyway with your financial question. Let's start with your higher possible debt figure of $550k. Using this debt repayment calculator, I calculate that you would accumulate $216,314 in interest over a 10-year repayment period. That leaves you with a total debt of $766,314. Your annual payment would be $76,631. However, there's the tax question. Assuming a tax burden of 33%, the amount of pretax income that you would have to dedicate to this would be approximately $114,947. If you go into one of the noncompetitive specialties like pediatrics or internal medicine, you can expect to bring home around $200k in pretax income. Subtracting your anticipated debt repayment cost, you would be living on the equivalent of a salary of $85,052 for 10 years.

So why does my $85k/year salary figure look significantly higher than the other estimates above? Because psychologically, if someone tells you that you're receiving only $56,700/year in aftertax income, you immediately compare that to someone who is earning $56,700 in pretax income. That's the problem. Would you ever associate a $85k/year salary with financial hardship? Of course not. I made that much before going to med school and owned my own house, had a luxury car, and took frequent vacations.

So to get on my soapbox for a second, we should all always calculate anticipated remaining income after debt payment in terms of pretax income, rather than take-home pay, for the reasons listed above. If you do otherwise, you're essentially counting the tax twice -- once mathematically, and once psychologically.

By the way, your suggestion to work in another field for a few years in order to accumulate money is the worst possible thing you could do. Your anticipated medical salary is around $200k per year. The debt is a cost that must be paid either way, so if you're not making more than $200k/year in your other line of work, you're potentially losing a vast quantity of money.
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Beachside: I understand why you feel more comfortable doing your calculations in terms of pretax income, because that's how people usually describe their salaries, but it's much more accurate and useful to consistently convert incomes into after-tax amounts, because those are the numbers that really matter. When your salary doubles, your actual after tax income may be considerably less. Similarly, when you retire and live on a pension or on withdrawals from a tax deferred 401k account, your withdrawals will be taxed as income, although without some of the additional medicare, disabiltiy, and other taxes that come out of your paycheck, and most likely at a lower effective tax rate, because the first dollars are tax free, and subsequent dollars taxed at lower rates, so you will need fewer dollars per year saved to get the same spending power.

So, you get partial credit for taking taxes into account, but I recommend that you actually think about all income in terms of after tax, rather than pre tax numbers, for maximal accuracy.
 
It feels like half of the posts in this thread are either debating the usage of loan vs borrowing or berating the OP and not actually pertaining to the original topic. Do less, SDN.

bc65 said:
Beachside: I understand why you feel more comfortable doing your calculations in terms of pretax income, because that's how people usually describe their salaries, but it's much more accurate and useful to consistently convert incomes into after-tax amounts, because those are the numbers that really matter. When your salary doubles, your actual after tax income may be considerably less. Similarly, when you retire and live on a pension or on withdrawals from a tax deferred 401k account, your withdrawals will be taxed as income, although without some of the additional medicare, disabiltiy, and other taxes that come out of your paycheck, and most likely at a lower effective tax rate, because the first dollars are tax free, and subsequent dollars taxed at lower rates, so you will need fewer dollars per year saved to get the same spending power.

So, you get partial credit for taking taxes into account, but I recommend that you actually think about all income in terms of after tax, rather than pre tax numbers, for maximal accuracy.
Click to expand...

I agree with this but people (at least here) then seem to proceed to compare after tax income with pretax incomes in other professions, which skews their financial perceptions of various careers.
 
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Go to medical school and don't let the money worry you. There are tons of places to get loans and no matter what specialty you get into, you will be able to pay off the loans (although some much faster than others). Even if you have to live on 40k a year for a while, once the loans are paid off, you will have a salary that most people would dream of having. 200k a year is a TON of money. Hell making 50k a year is better than most jobs in the US
 
dxcrunner said:
Go to medical school and don't let the money worry you. There are tons of places to get loans and no matter what specialty you get into, you will be able to pay off the loans (although some much faster than others). Even if you have to live on 40k a year for a while, once the loans are paid off, you will have a salary that most people would dream of having. 200k a year is a TON of money. Hell making 50k a year is better than most jobs in the US
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Completely agree.
 
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