The drawbacks of orthopedic surgery?

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Truth. I've seen hand guys work like neurosurgeons, and spine guys work like dermatologists. It is what you make of it, though I'm sure not everyone can make exactly what they want of it, nomsayin? Sports/ joints/ F&A seem to lend to good lifestyles, and spine can be OK if you stick to smaller whacks. God bless trauma and pedi ortho.

On a side note, hard to believe I started this monstrosity of a thread 3 years ago... Well, it didn't scare me from the field and I matched this year. I'll see each and everyone of you as$ holes in July...

Just some curiosity here, when you say "good lifestyles" when speaking of joints what do you mean by that. I've read threads on here that say they work 60 a week about, some that say 70+ and some that say 50. Or do you mean in terms of emergent cases? I'm not sure how much knowledge you'll have of this but I thought I'd give it a shot.

Thanks!

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Most orthopods will not measure the "goodness" of their lifestyle in terms of hours worked. More typically, they will talk about the frequency of call, how often they have to do unscheduled cases, how often they have to come in when they are call.

Number of hours worked tends to correlate with the number of patients operated on, especially in primarily elective subspecialties like Spine and Joints. Most private practice surgeons I have worked for or talked with are always be looking for ways to push up their number of cases, because that translates to more income. I have heard many complaints about facilities refusing to let cases start later in the day; I have heard very few complaints about being in the OR too long.

So essentially most won't complain about hours since you can control those due to how many patients you take, but will instead determine how good their lifestyle is by how often they are called in while on call?
 
For people aware of the lifestyle in residency and beyond, how much is continued research stressed? Is it variable by location i.e. PP v Academic. I would assume that working at an academic hospital would mean more stability and security, but most attendings that I have seen in such environments are still heavily involved in research. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to do the research at that point in my life but after realizing that medicine will not leave me much time for my future family it would be annoying if I would have to miss a recital for a research meeting.
 
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Just some curiosity here, when you say "good lifestyles" when speaking of joints what do you mean by that. I've read threads on here that say they work 60 a week about, some that say 70+ and some that say 50. Or do you mean in terms of emergent cases? I'm not sure how much knowledge you'll have of this but I thought I'd give it a shot.

Thanks!

What I define as a good lifestyle in joints is 3 OR days, 2 clinic days and no weekends, except when on call. Joints is nice because you can *usually* predict how long the cases will be, especially if your practice is mostly primary joints. On my rotations with established joints surgeons in their 40's and 50's, they were rarely in the hospital past 5pm. Clinic in joints is a grind tho, because your total patient census grows with each primary joint that you do. So you could have 80-100 patients to see on a clinic day, but it's entirely manageable with some mid level support. Clinic days usually wrap up by 6pm.

If you did a joints fellowship and intend keep a good reputation with your referring physicians, you'll be doing joint revisions which can be less predictable and somewhat painful. Still, the people I rotated with were usually going home before 5pm on OR days, even with 2-3 revision cases per week.

If you're in a large group, which most orthopaedist are these days, then call is also very manageable. You'll probably be on call for 1 weekend a month and have to come in to fix a few fractures during that time. Tired is absolutely correct in his comments about orthopaedists being happy when they can control their schedules. Younger guys usually work much harder, and I know a few who will do 8+ joints per OR day and sometimes operate late into the evening. But those guys choose that life, and enjoy the monetary rewards for their absurd schedules. You definitely don't need to keep up that pace, because your practice is elective by nature.

Contrast this with pedi ortho, where many of your OR cases come from the ED. That's much less predictable. Also in pedi orhto, you need to do a ton a clinic early on to identify operative candidates. Trauma is trauma, and totally unpredictable. Still, those surgeons usually have multiple partners to spread the pain around. A popular trauma practice set up these days is to have a "small" joints practice each week, and add trauma cases on top of your elective practice as they come in through the ED. There's a good amount of variety in that practice set up, and you'll do a little bit of everything (except spine). Trauma has gotten much more lifestyle friendly over the years, and is actually a highly sought-after fellowship now. Starting a few years ago, there have been more trauma applicants than available fellowships. The other nice thing about trauma is that the demand is inelastic--- people will always be driving cars and doing stupid things (often at the same time...) meaning there will always be a strong demand for your services.
 
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For people aware of the lifestyle in residency and beyond, how much is continued research stressed? Is it variable by location i.e. PP v Academic. I would assume that working at an academic hospital would mean more stability and security, but most attendings that I have seen in such environments are still heavily involved in research. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to do the research at that point in my life but after realizing that medicine will not leave me much time for my future family it would be annoying if I would have to miss a recital for a research meeting.

Totally practice and person dependent. Many "academic" appointments are set up like pseudo-private practices these days, where your primary responsibility is clinical care. I haven't been exposed to a ton of private practice surgeons, but the ones I know don't do much research.
 
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Again though, highly variable. Take Rush's Sports program for example. They are a private practice group that are part of an academic department, run a serious fellowship, and publish extensively.

Definitely variable, though I think places like Rush and Jefferson/Rothman (another example) are pretty unique practices. I'd probably consider them part of the hybrid/priva-demic category. There are a lot of programs in that category that don't publish nearly as much -- geisinger, campbell clinic, ochsner, and union memorial (sans the hand and F&A guys) come to mind.
 
What I define as a good lifestyle in joints is 3 OR days, 2 clinic days and no weekends, except when on call. Joints is nice because you can *usually* predict how long the cases will be, especially if your practice is mostly primary joints. On my rotations with established joints surgeons in their 40's and 50's, they were rarely in the hospital past 5pm. Clinic in joints is a grind tho, because your total patient census grows with each primary joint that you do. So you could have 80-100 patients to see on a clinic day, but it's entirely manageable with some mid level support. Clinic days usually wrap up by 6pm.

If you did a joints fellowship and intend keep a good reputation with your referring physicians, you'll be doing joint revisions which can be less predictable and somewhat painful. Still, the people I rotated with were usually going home before 5pm on OR days, even with 2-3 revision cases per week.

If you're in a large group, which most orthopaedist are these days, then call is also very manageable. You'll probably be on call for 1 weekend a month and have to come in to fix a few fractures during that time. Tired is absolutely correct in his comments about orthopaedists being happy when they can control their schedules. Younger guys usually work much harder, and I know a few who will do 8+ joints per OR day and sometimes operate late into the evening. But those guys choose that life, and enjoy the monetary rewards for their absurd schedules. You definitely don't need to keep up that pace, because your practice is elective by nature.

Contrast this with pedi ortho, where many of your OR cases come from the ED. That's much less predictable. Also in pedi orhto, you need to do a ton a clinic early on to identify operative candidates. Trauma is trauma, and totally unpredictable. Still, those surgeons usually have multiple partners to spread the pain around. A popular trauma practice set up these days is to have a "small" joints practice each week, and add trauma cases on top of your elective practice as they come in through the ED. There's a good amount of variety in that practice set up, and you'll do a little bit of everything (except spine). Trauma has gotten much more lifestyle friendly over the years, and is actually a highly sought-after fellowship now. Starting a few years ago, there have been more trauma applicants than available fellowships. The other nice thing about trauma is that the demand is inelastic--- people will always be driving cars and doing stupid things (often at the same time...) meaning there will always be a strong demand for your services.

Thank you very much for the in depth response. I was unaware physicians in surgical specialties could imagine a schedule like M-F with some weekend call. Everyone on SDN seems to make it sound like they're all slaving away 24/7. Your posts have helped me greatly.
 
Thank you very much for the in depth response. I was unaware physicians in surgical specialties could imagine a schedule like M-F with some weekend call. Everyone on SDN seems to make it sound like they're all slaving away 24/7. Your posts have helped me greatly.

It really varies. But don't count on that being the typical. In ortho there are 3 things you want, but you can only pick 2: location, money and lifestyle. If you go to more rural areas, you can have money and a good lifestyle (critical access hospitals will bend over backwards to recruit you). If you want to live in a decently sized coastal city, then you're going to have to forfeit either money or lifestyle.

It's the rare orthopedic surgeon who can have all 3 things. He is likely a superstar (in which case his lifestyle at some point was terrible as well).

If you happen to be the person who actually enjoys small town America (not part of a metro), then you're all set.
 
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He is likely a superstar (in which case his lifestyle at some point was terrible as well).

My experience is mostly with academic and priva-demic surgeons, but in certain specialties like joints & sports they seemed to have decent flexibility in making their schedules in general. I'm sure they weren't making huge bucks, like you pointed out. But the younger surgeons I met who operate like crazy definitely seemed to be reaping the benefits of their difficult schedules.
 
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