The Effect of Undergrad and Rigor of Courses

[Jfasten]

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I guess I just had a different experience than most of you had. Like I said, I went to undergrad at a top 10, took both orgos at what I would say is a top-30 school, and a few others at a city-school. My undergrad was much more difficult and competitive, even though it is a "big research" university. Though I did have professors that engaged in a lot of research, never did I get the impression that they were shortchanging the students by not devoting a significant amount of time to their classes. Nor did I ever have a lecture with a TA, ever. The disparity I saw in difficulty between the schools was evidenced by the tests. At the city-school, for example, it was mostly multiple choice. At my undergrad, I never once had a multiple-choice science exam...it was all short answer and essays.

Of course, no general theme will hold true at every school. And while I acknowledge that state schools have plenty of students that are as intelligent if not more than kids at "top" schools or more prestigious schools, I still do not buy that the competition is the same. Even though I know that premed is competetive everywhere, at those top schools the competition is probably that much higher due to the general student population. To dismiss this would seem sort of crazy to me. Undergrad admissions is there for a reason.

I am not trying to sound elitist with this argument by any means. Look around the allo med schools and a ton of people come from state schools and smaller, lesser known schools and I am sure these people succeed in medical school and do well afterwards. I just think that kids who go to better universities are subject to a lot more difficult conditions in undergrad premed and if they do well, deserve to have that help them in med school admissions. I think the current system does that to some degree but perhaps not enough.

 

[not so calm now]

I can only speak from personal experience, but I went to a competitive, top tier state school for undergrad (one of the "public ivys") and am taking prereqs at a less-competitive state school. The classes at my undergrad were much more difficult and it was much harder to get an A (as a freshman, I remember well the sinking feeling when I looked on the syllabus and saw that only 18% of the class could get As in gen chem). At this school (I think it may be 3rd or 4th tier), I'm getting As with effort on par with high school. There is no curve, so that greatly reduces the competition right off the bat. Coupled with the fact that there are fewer premeds and more pre-allied health (dental hygiene, nursing, etc.) makes for a much more relaxed atmosphere.

That being said, I think the classes are still good and I'm learning what I need to know, but there's no way anyone could convince me that their 3.8 at this school indicates greater mastery of material than my 3.3 at my undergrad. I find it difficult to convey how much respect I have for someone who pulls off >3.6 at my undergrad without playing games like taking easy classes for As(there are those, especially upper level seminars).

I feel that difficulty of undergrad should be more heavily considered, but I'm obviously biased.

 

[lrkoehle]

My school actually offered me the most financial aid. Money tends to correlate with rank.

Attitude of superiority? Is it wrong to believe that top school kids are academically better than state school kids?

That's like attributing an attitude of superiority to a person who believes the NBA teams are better at basketball than high school varsity teams.

Go ahead and say what you must to protect your self-esteem though.

The most financial aid? Does that mean the most amount of money or the least amount of cost to you? $10,000 at my state school will more than cover my tuition AND living expenses, but at Yale that wouldn't go nearly as far.

Yes, it is wrong to think that kids at top schools are better academically than state school kids. There are many reasons people CHOOSE to not go to a top school. I want to emphasize this CHOOSING to NOT go to a top school, and it is not just because they couldn't make it there. As for your basketball example, are you trying to say that us state school kids are the high school team? This example is absolutely stupid. Of course an NBA team would destroy any high school team, there is no question about that. However, if you are trying to imply that students at a top school would academically destroy almost all of us at a state school, I must say you are dead wrong. Need evidence of this? Look to the MCAT as others have said.

As for my self-esteem, if it is ever in question I will follow my above advice and look to my MCAT score. Is it the highest on SDN? No, but it is higher than most, including many people at your precious school.

 

[shindotp]

Where in my post did i say I was referring to you? However, if the average at Yale is a 32 (which is what 85%ile?) and the average at said state school is a 25..then thats about a difference of 1 std deviation, which draws into question your belief that 50% of yale kids would be in the top 1% at a certain State school.
Perhaps if yales average was 38.

Sorry, you fail again.

You were implying all over your (not very witty) parody.

1. I don't go to Yale.
2. People who take the MCAT at state schools are far more self-selective than those at a school such as Yale.
3. So if it is one standard deviation, top 50% of Yale kids = top 50% of Yale kids who take the MCAT > top 15% of state school kids who take the MCAT > top 5% of state school kids.

Oh noes, I failed! At least I go to a better school than you did 😛PP nyah nyah!

 

[shindotp]

The most financial aid? Does that mean the most amount of money or the least amount of cost to you? $10,000 at my state school will more than cover my tuition AND living expenses, but at Yale that wouldn't go nearly as far.

Yes, it is wrong to think that kids at top schools are better academically than state school kids. There are many reasons people CHOOSE to not go to a top school. I want to emphasize this CHOOSING to NOT go to a top school, and it is not just because they couldn't make it there. As for your basketball example, are you trying to say that us state school kids are the high school team? This example is absolutely stupid. Of course an NBA team would destroy any high school team, there is no question about that. However, if you are trying to imply that students at a top school would academically destroy almost all of us at a state school, I must say you are dead wrong. Need evidence of this? Look to the MCAT as others have said.

As for my self-esteem, if it is ever in question I will follow my above advice and look to my MCAT score. Is it the highest on SDN? No, but it is higher than most, including many people at your precious school.

I pay $3k a year to go to my private school ($47k in grants), and I don't go to Yale. UCLA wanted me to pay ~$17k

 

[shindotp]

This comment=stupid. Do you have any idea what the top few percent of any reasonable undergraduate institution looks like? It is 40+ MCAT scores, multiple research experiences, publications, and so on. I would even go as far as to say that the top 1% at my state school would probably look very similar to the top 1% at any Ivy. It is the individuals who matter, not the averages.

😴

 

[lrkoehle]

😴

Really? Is this because PremedIowa is a living contradiction of everything you want to believe? He went to a state school, and oh my god he was still able to absolutely destroy the MCAT. How can that be? He is after all just one of us stupid state school kids, right? Nevermind the fact that he will be going to the most exclusive medical school in the country this fall.

 

[shindotp]

Really? Is this because PremedIowa is a living contradiction of everything you want to believe? He went to a state school, and oh my god he was still able to absolutely destroy the MCAT. How can that be? He is after all just one of us stupid state school kids, right? Nevermind the fact that he will be going to the most exclusive medical school in the country this fall.

LOL!! Sure, that's exactly what I meant by 😴. Wow, you must be House.

I know there are some smart kids at state schools. I just know kids at top private schools tend to be a hell of a lot smarter.

Damn, it's impossible to be humble when you make it impossible for me to look at you without looking down.

 

[45408]

It's really funny how people assume private school kids pay more money when over half the class receives financial aid and the average financial aid is somewhere around $30k in grants.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better though! 😉

I chose my school because I decided it was worth it to be challenged and forced to learn rather than just chilling at like USC and getting a really high GPA.

I knew someone would be compelled to post this. There's a conjunctive clause in my post that you can go back and read that would have negated your need to post this.

Where in my original post did I downplay the MCAT? I would agree that the MCAT is a better indicator of academic capabilities than the school someone attends. The average MCAT score at my school is a 32, what's the average MCAT at a state school? 24? 25?

Who cares? I did much better than the average at my school and at your school.

 

[shindotp]

^Oops, skimmed your post and missed that. My bad.

 

[lrkoehle]

LOL!! Sure, that's exactly what I meant by 😴. Wow, you must be House.

I know there are some smart kids at state schools. I just know kids at top private schools tend to be a hell of a lot smarter.

Damn, it's impossible to be humble when you make it impossible for me to look at you without looking down.

Then what did you mean by it? It was a completely useless post made by you. It was clearly your attempt to negate his statements, but you had nothing real to say. I don't get the reference to House, but then again I don't waste my time watching that show. I would figure at a big fancy private school you would be sooo busy you wouldn't have time for TV shows. Only those of us idiots at state schools with our easy classes have time for TV.

Face the fact that your fancy school will not do very much for you when applying to medical school. If you get in, it is because YOU worked hard, not because of your school's name. This is the point I have been trying to make, but you don't seem to get it.

As for you being humble, you haven't been anywhere close to that from the start. You clearly are an arrogant, elitist private school kid. Oh well, the real world will hit you some day.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

You were implying all over your (not very witty) parody.

1. I don't go to Yale.
2. People who take the MCAT at state schools are far more self-selective than those at a school such as Yale.
3. So if it is one standard deviation, top 50% of Yale kids = top 50% of Yale kids who take the MCAT > top 15% of state school kids who take the MCAT > top 5% of state school kids.

Oh noes, I failed! At least I go to a better school than you did 😛PP nyah nyah!

1)-Ok
2) How do you know this?

and how do you know you go to a better school then me? You have never taken classes at my school, and I have never taken any at your school. I have heard that Stanford has some of the craziest grade inflation out of any school...and ill just assume you go there....am I right?

 

[witness23]

all of us, at this point, can't really change what school we go to or what we decided to major in.

if you are in school, i suggest that you visit your high school friends at their respective universities. it's fun and you learn more about your school/community.

also some people need to go out a bit more. i can't tell you how many nyc kids have never been out of the city except to take their mcat.

its a great country!



25th hour was a good movie

 

[lrkoehle]

I have heard that Stanford has some of the craziest grade inflation out of any school...and ill just assume you go there....am I right?

That was my guess of where he/she goes.

 

[GoBeers]

I find it difficult to convey how much respect I have for someone who pulls off >3.6 at my undergrad without playing games like taking easy classes for As(there are those, especially upper level seminars).

I feel that difficulty of undergrad should be more heavily considered, but I'm obviously biased.

you must be either from UVA or CAL haha . or maybe ucla/michigan??

anyway, i was wondering how 2 students would compare as such:

student A goes to top university and gets 3.6 gpa all the way

vs.

student B went to CC for 2 years and got 4.0, then transfered to top university and got 3.6. his/her avg. would ultimately be 3.8

does the 3.8 look better than 3.6??

 

[Rzarecta]

you must be either from UVA or CAL haha . or maybe ucla/michigan??

anyway, i was wondering how 2 students would compare as such:

student A goes to top university and gets 3.6 gpa all the way

vs.

student B went to CC for 2 years and got 4.0, then transfered to top university and got 3.6. his/her avg. would ultimately be 3.8

does the 3.8 look better than 3.6??

Depends on the MCAT.

 

[SiR99]

you must be either from UVA or CAL haha . or maybe ucla/michigan??

anyway, i was wondering how 2 students would compare as such:

student A goes to top university and gets 3.6 gpa all the way

vs.

student B went to CC for 2 years and got 4.0, then transfered to top university and got 3.6. his/her avg. would ultimately be 3.8

does the 3.8 look better than 3.6??

That is a red flag for an Adcom. An Adcom told me this.

 

[GoBeers]

MCAT being equal of course....

That is a red flag for an Adcom. An Adcom told me this.

red flag for the transfer student?

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Comment : in practical terms, GPA >>>>>> all other factors. A 4.0 with half the courses transferred from community college is better than a 3.5 from a prestigious school. It shouldn't work this way, but it does.

However, I have see the worksheets used by a particular medical school. This school multiplies GPA by a coefficient to correct for difficulty. Depending on the "rigor" of the school, your undergrad GPA gets increases or decreased by this metric.

So, at some medical schools, it does count to go to a college that is considered to be more difficult. Wait, am I contradicting myself? No.

I am pretty sure for the broad scope of medical schools, on average, it's better to have a better GPA, even if it's from a less rigorous school, period. All things being equal, premeds should do what they need to do to maximize their GPA, enough said.

Not every school's adcoms will catch stuff like community college transfers and hold it against you, nor will they necessarily count a B at a prestigious school more than an A at Joe Schmo Community College. On the average, GPA is going to win you more points than you lose, even if you have to sacrifice prestige to get it.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I can only speak from personal experience, but I went to a competitive, top tier state school for undergrad (one of the "public ivys") and am taking prereqs at a less-competitive state school. The classes at my undergrad were much more difficult and it was much harder to get an A (as a freshman, I remember well the sinking feeling when I looked on the syllabus and saw that only 18% of the class could get As in gen chem). At this school (I think it may be 3rd or 4th tier), I'm getting As with effort on par with high school. There is no curve, so that greatly reduces the competition right off the bat. Coupled with the fact that there are fewer premeds and more pre-allied health (dental hygiene, nursing, etc.) makes for a much more relaxed atmosphere.

That being said, I think the classes are still good and I'm learning what I need to know, but there's no way anyone could convince me that their 3.8 at this school indicates greater mastery of material than my 3.3 at my undergrad. I find it difficult to convey how much respect I have for someone who pulls off >3.6 at my undergrad without playing games like taking easy classes for As(there are those, especially upper level seminars).

I feel that difficulty of undergrad should be more heavily considered, but I'm obviously biased.

I go to a regionally respected (~3 states might know us), nationally unknown private institution. On day one of gen chem, we were told that in our class of 35, not more than 3 would get As. The class was not curved, and the cutoff for an A was 80%. In an entire year of OChem (2 semesters), the students in my earned 3 As. We are by no (traditional) measure a top-tier school, but I wouldn't call us easy.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

I go to a regionally respected (~3 states might know us), nationally unknown private institution. On day one of gen chem, we were told that in our class of 35, not more than 3 would get As. The class was not curved, and the cutoff for an A was 80%. In an entire year of OChem (2 semesters), the students in my earned 3 As. We are by no (traditional) measure a top-tier school, but I wouldn't call us easy.

Policies like that only screw you, on average. (unless you are lucky enough to make the top 10%)

If you'd gone to an easier school that gave As to 20-30%, and had a class full of less highly achieving students, you'd still look almost as good on paper as someone with an equal GPA from a school as rigorous as yours. Furthermore, if you went to an easier school, you'd probably end up with a much higher GPA, and dominate over a clone of yourself who did the exact same amount of studying but went to the harder school.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Comment : in practical terms, GPA >>>>>> all other factors. A 4.0 with half the courses transferred from community college is better than a 3.5 from a prestigious school. It shouldn't work this way, but it does.

However, I have see the worksheets used by a particular medical school. This school multiplies GPA by a coefficient to correct for difficulty. Depending on the "rigor" of the school, your undergrad GPA gets increases or decreased by this metric.

So, at some medical schools, it does count to go to a college that is considered to be more difficult. Wait, am I contradicting myself? No.

I am pretty sure for the broad scope of medical schools, on average, it's better to have a better GPA, even if it's from a less rigorous school, period. All things being equal, premeds should do what they need to do to maximize their GPA, enough said.

Not every school's adcoms will catch stuff like community college transfers and hold it against you, nor will they necessarily count a B at a prestigious school more than an A at Joe Schmo Community College. On the average, GPA is going to win you more points than you lose, even if you have to sacrifice prestige to get it.

I always wonder about this grade conversion business. My CC GPA is less than 0.1 points higher than my 4 year university GPA, and the major reason for this (in my mind, anyway) is that I took only general education (liberal arts) courses at the CC and then jumped into 3-4 science courses with lab per semester at the 4 year.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

I always wonder about this grade conversion business. My CC GPA is less than 0.1 points higher than my 4 year university GPA, and the major reason for this (in my mind, anyway) is that I took only general education (liberal arts) courses at the CC and then jumped into 3-4 science courses with lab per semester at the 4 year.

Odds are, they'll just take your entire GPA for your 4 year university, look up the coefficient on the table for THAT school, and multiply it to figure out the correct GPA. The admissions office won't compensate for the fact that you took some courses at a CC. Other med schools aren't even going to go that far, and will just look at the cumulative and BCMP GPAs.

Yes, so if you went to Snuffy Community college for 2 years, then (somehow) transferred to MIT for your last 2 years, you'll have a super high GPA.

Moral of the story : med school admissions is a game. It's no different a game than a board game or a card game. Adcoms are not omniscient gods, and if you play the game by the rules, you'll probably win. It's not a fair game, and you won't necessarily be chosen just because you'll make the best doctor. You'll be chosen because your numbers look good, and they like you.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Policies like that only screw you, on average. (unless you are lucky enough to make the top 10%)

If you'd gone to an easier school that gave As to 20-30%, and had a class full of less highly achieving students, you'd still look almost as good on paper as someone with an equal GPA from a school as rigorous as yours. Furthermore, if you went to an easier school, you'd probably end up with a much higher GPA, and dominate over a clone of yourself who did the exact same amount of studying but went to the harder school.

True, but my school offers small classes, easy access to our professors, and decent research opportunities with funding. Honestly, I picked the school b/c it has strong programs in each of my majors...they also offered me enough money to allow them to compete w/ the major state school. I had only briefly considered medicine before starting at this school.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

True, but my school offers small classes, easy access to our professors, and decent research opportunities with funding. Honestly, I picked the school b/c it has strong programs in each of my majors...they also offered me enough money to allow them to compete w/ the major state school. I had only briefly considered medicine before starting at this school.

You still made a bad choice if your number 1 goal was medical school. Even though I take it you did succeed. I'm not trying to criticize your decision, I'm just saying : it's a game, and going to a school with policies like that does lower the probability of winning. Game theory says you made a bad move. There's a lot of folks who could get a 4.0 at an easy state school would would end up with nearly all Bs at a school like yours.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

You still made a bad choice if your number 1 goal was medical school. Even though I take it you did succeed. I'm not trying to criticize your decision, I'm just saying : it's a game, and going to a school with policies like that does lower the probability of winning. Game theory says you made a bad move. There's a lot of folks who could get a 4.0 at an easy state school would would end up with nearly all Bs at a school like yours.

Agreed. If medicine had been my goal before I applied to college, I might have picked an easier school. In the end, my GPA is probably high enough that it won't hurt me.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Agreed. If medicine had been my goal before I applied to college, I might have picked an easier school. In the end, my GPA is probably high enough that it won't hurt me.

Thanks for understanding. I was afraid I hadn't gotten my point across, since it sounds like you managed to make the bad situation work for you.

 

[MrAgreeable]

You still made a bad choice if your number 1 goal was medical school. Even though I take it you did succeed. I'm not trying to criticize your decision, I'm just saying : it's a game, and going to a school with policies like that does lower the probability of winning. Game theory says you made a bad move. There's a lot of folks who could get a 4.0 at an easy state school would would end up with nearly all Bs at a school like yours.

Well put, actually (the game), but I was like TMR in that I didn't know out of high school if I wanted to go into medicine, so I guess I to made a bad medical 'game' descision. Yet, there is always a give and take to a certain extent. For example, I would trade the pchem class I am in right now with many other people's pchem, but, guess what, I'm sure they would kill to have been in my ochem.

In the end, it all comes out in the wash and the "my undergrad is better than your undergrad" will ALWAYS degrade into a uselessly gigantic d*ck waving contest.

 

[Greonis]

In the end, it all comes out in the wash and the "my undergrad is better than your undergrad" with ALWAYS degrade into a uselessly gigantic d*ck waving contest.

Or, as I tend to see it, an overgeneralization fest in which no one knows for sure what they are talking about. There is just no viable good way to codify (the ultimate goal of said generalizations) something as broad and subjective as the rigor/quality of one's undergraduate education.

I would prefer that these discussions didn't exist and that people put more stock into their own merits, but such is the way of life.

 

[virusgirl]

Or, as I tend to see it, an overgeneralization fest in which no one knows for sure what they are talking about. There is just no viable good way to codify (the ultimate goal of said generalizations) something as broad and subjective as the rigor/quality of one's undergraduate education.

I would prefer that these discussions didn't exist and that people put more stock into their own merits, but such is the way of life.

Exactly. The perceived rigor of your undergrad institution is just one of those things that, unless you plan to transfer, you need to just accept as being something out of your control. I have no idea how rigorous medical schools consider my alma mater to be, and I don't really care. Whatever school you end up at -- Ivy League or State U -- you still need to work hard.

 

[flip26]

In the end, it all comes out in the wash and the "my undergrad is better than your undergrad" with ALWAYS degrade into a uselessly gigantic d*ck waving contest.

The way this is written, gigantic modifies d*ck.

Perhaps a hyphen between d*ck and waving would have worked better?

Or perhaps the picture of a giant penis being waved was your intent?

 

[MilkmanAl]

There is just no viable good way to codify (the ultimate goal of said generalizations) something as broad and subjective as the rigor/quality of one's undergraduate education.

I totally agree. That's just one of the innumerable things there's no way GPA can account for. Like Prowler said, be thankful for the MCAT. It's not perfect, but at least there are far fewer things that can affect your score.

 

[bigman225]

👍👍👍👍 Completely agree with you.

The sad truth is, people from easier schools refuse to admit something that might be a blow to their egos (like their 3.8 means nothing compared to a 3.4 from a rigorous top 10 school). It's simple human nature.

No matter how much grade inflation exists (like at Yale), a course at a top 10 school will be harder to get an A in than a school with a lower caliber student body. Sure, 50% of the kids at Yale will get an A in class ____, but those 50% sure as hell deserved the A more than the 10% of the kids at state school _____. Top 50% at Yale >>>>>>>>>>>> top 10% (even top 1%) at a state school.

Anyone else choking on smug? Good riddance

 

[deleted202457]

some schools are harder than others. big deal. unless you plan on transferring to whoever wins this debates's school, then why stress. my school may not be the best but they gave me the money so oh well. I just have to suck it up and do my best with what I have. If you just keep your GPA high it won't really matter where you went.

 

[SiR99]

MCAT being equal of course....



red flag for the transfer student?

I'm not sure if its a red flag from a 4.0 to a 3.6, because a 3.6 is still good, but the Adcom said that if the drop was not very big, then it was okay, but I do not remember what example they gave for 'really big'.

I think what they said was like, a drop from 3.9 to 3.7ish would be okay, because a 3.7 was still good, but a drop to like 3.3 was a problem.

So I'm not 100% sure how this would translate to a drop from 4.0 to 3.6, but they definately compare both your college and university grades, and give more weight to the university ones as an indicator of your performance.

 

[guyski79]

Against my better judgment, I'd like to offer this.

Of course it may not solve anything in this argument, but it's worth a read (see attachment for pdf of article):

Does Institutional Selectivity Aid in the Prediction of Medical School Performance?.[SIZE=-1] AMYV BLUE, GE GILBERT, CL ELAM, WT BASCO JR - Academic Medicine, 2000[/SIZE]

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Yes, I read this. It actually agrees with nearly everything people have said above.

MCAT is the best predictive metric for future medical school performance. Adding Overall Undergraduate GPA (ignoring the selectivity of the school) to the factors considered improves the predictive value.

Once a medical school factors in MCAT and overall GPA, considering the selectivity of the undergrad institution does not improve the metric. Medical schools can safely ignore it, and many of them do.

Conclusions :
1. All the variance in how hard a school is and how it grades make GPA a poor predictive measurement of medical school performance
2. It doesn't matter where you got your GPA from, only how high it is. Play the game accordingly.

 

[MrAgreeable]

The way this is written, gigantic modifies d*ck.

Perhaps a hyphen between d*ck and waving would have worked better?

Or perhaps the picture of a giant penis being waved was your intent?

Thanks Robby Browning I'll watch my subject-verb agreement or whatever piece of grammar I messed up. You know what I meant. It is a useless argument.

 

[shindotp]

Then what did you mean by it? It was a completely useless post made by you. It was clearly your attempt to negate his statements, but you had nothing real to say. I don't get the reference to House, but then again I don't waste my time watching that show. I would figure at a big fancy private school you would be sooo busy you wouldn't have time for TV shows. Only those of us idiots at state schools with our easy classes have time for TV.

Face the fact that your fancy school will not do very much for you when applying to medical school. If you get in, it is because YOU worked hard, not because of your school's name. This is the point I have been trying to make, but you don't seem to get it.

As for you being humble, you haven't been anywhere close to that from the start. You clearly are an arrogant, elitist private school kid. Oh well, the real world will hit you some day.

Uh huh, keep telling yourself that 🙂. I'm sure it helps your ego to think that you have a better view of the "real" world even though you'd probably agree I'm smarter than you are.

I understand that my undergrad won't help in applying to med school (where did I ever say that?). I didn't get it? LOL alright sure, go ahead and believe that (even though I never disagreed with that point).

Oh you don't have time for House. Dang, I have time to enjoy life and still achieve more than you? Wow, you're totally right for looking down on me for that point. 😉

 

[shindotp]

1)-Ok
2) How do you know this?

and how do you know you go to a better school then me? You have never taken classes at my school, and I have never taken any at your school. I have heard that Stanford has some of the craziest grade inflation out of any school...and ill just assume you go there....am I right?

Hahaha, I don't go to Stanford, but I go to a top 5. And I don't need to take a course at whatever school you go to in order to know that my school makes it a lot harder to get good grades. It's like saying "you haven't touched my oven, how do you know that it gets hot when you turn it on."

 

[madamebovary]

Hahaha, I don't go to Stanford, but I go to a top 5. And I don't need to take a course at whatever school you go to in order to know that my school makes it a lot harder to get good grades. It's like saying "you haven't touched my oven, how do you know that it gets hot when you turn it on."

spoken like a frog in a well

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Hahaha, I don't go to Stanford, but I go to a top 5. And I don't need to take a course at whatever school you go to in order to know that my school makes it a lot harder to get good grades.

Oh, really? You know that the top 5 schools are infamous for grade inflation : Harvard used to give A- as the average grade to an undergraduate student. Furthermore, I recall that Stanford will allow you to drop a class the morning of the final exam...

You have absolutely no basis for your statement.

 

[bigman225]

i can't believe i was duped, huge troll

 

[shindotp]

Oh, really? You know that the top 5 schools are infamous for grade inflation : Harvard used to give A- as the average grade to an undergraduate student. Furthermore, I recall that Stanford will allow you to drop a class the morning of the final exam...

You have absolutely no basis for your statement.

You have no basis for me having no basis!

Okay this is getting kind of out of hand. I guess I'll just have to leave you guys to your own beliefs. You will never be able to convince me that a class at your school is on par with the classes on mine.

My basis is this: if it's hard for me, it's impossibly harder for most students. I've taken 18 college level courses (AP and community college) while in high school, and none them was anywhere close to the difficulty of a class I've taken at my university. I'd say one class here is about the same difficulty as 3 AP classes in high school.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Well, depends on which school you go to.

Some of those elite institutions have curriculums that are no more difficult than the average undergrad. I'm reasonably certain this is the case at Harvard.

I mean, picking a class full of "geniuses" is pretty hard to do when all you have to go on are high school grades and an easy standardized test. Both of those things were pathetically easy compared to later challenges. So just because an undergrad institution is "elite" doesn't mean the students are really all that much smarter, as a group.

However, I had a friend who went to Caltech. He was a genuine genius, scoring 1600 on his SAT (the max score a few years ago) in the 7th grade. He was on the winning team that won the national academic decathalon in high school. Anyhow, he scored about a 3.3 GPA at Caltech, and felt he was "average" versus the insanely hard classes.

 

[flip26]

Thanks Robby Browning I'll watch my subject-verb agreement or whatever piece of grammar I messed up. You know what I meant. It is a useless argument.

It was a joke, dude.

Lighten up.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Hahaha, I don't go to Stanford, but I go to a top 5. And I don't need to take a course at whatever school you go to in order to know that my school makes it a lot harder to get good grades. It's like saying "you haven't touched my oven, how do you know that it gets hot when you turn it on."

Yeah it's exactly like saying that...

 

[MilkmanAl]

Why wasn't I invited to the e-peen contest?

Because everyone already knows how poor you were growing up. We're moving on. 😉

 

[guyski79]

Oh, really? You know that the top 5 schools are infamous for grade inflation : Harvard used to give A- as the average grade to an undergraduate student. Furthermore, I recall that Stanford will allow you to drop a class the morning of the final exam...

You have absolutely no basis for your statement.

That's actually not true about Stanford and finals. And I don't think that's true about Harvard either, based on what I've heard.

I agree, it's a waste of time to try to compare schools with high school grades and the SAT. We'll ultimately just sink into a pisssing contest.

But I've heard from some adcoms that one way to adjust GPA for each school is to factor in historical school performance on the MCAT.

So let's say the average applicant from school A has an MCAT of 32, versus the average applicant from school B with an MCAT of 27. Do people think this is an OK way to compare the rigor of different schools? I'm just curious to hear thoughts.

 

[dragonfly99]

I think it is hard for adcoms to compare the difficulty of various schools...what they can do is to compare the selectiveness of various colleges/universities...they know that Stanford and Harvard have more top students than the average state school, and that historically they've had a lot of good MCAT scorers, with great extracurriculars, etc. from Stanford and Harvard. However, the top 1% at a good state school is not inferior to the top 50% at Yale...the person that said that is obviously arrogant. I too have heard there is significant grade inflation at some of the "name" universities...Stanford and Princeton are ones frequently mentioned. I have to say, though, that I know some people who went to these schools and they are quite bright.

Having said that, I took some courses at the local state U. and I have to say that getting an A wasn't much harder, or really any harder, than getting an A at my high school. Getting an A at my private college (not a famous one, but regionally respected liberal arts college) required orders of magnitude more work. And I only had one test in 4 years that had multiple choice questions, where at the state U. there were quite a few. It's not that there weren't some smart people there, but there was just not as much work and there were more students working extensive part time jobs, or who already had kids, etc. Their focus was not on school to the same degree as the vast majority of the students @my private undergrad. I know that many,many people graduate with 3.8 or above every year @this state U., and I had a 4.0 in the few classes I took there, but @my undergrad there were probably <10 people who had >3.8 GPA. I think a 3.4 @my private school would require more work than to get a 3.8 at this state U...but again some depends on the individual professor, the rigor of the particular major, etc. That said, there are many excellent state schools that I'm sure are competitive in terms of grading and rigorous in terms of course work, as much or more so as some of the famous "ivy" universities, and I feel that my undergrad liberal arts college (relatively unknown outside our region) prepared me as well for med school as the "famous/ivy" northeastern universities.

Some med schools definitely factor in the difficulty of your undergrad school, or attempt to, so that is something you should keep in mind. At the same time, someone who kicks tail on the MCAT and went to a relatively unknown school but has a great GPA is still going to be in a good position with most adcoms.

You can't live your life just picking schools, etc. only based on what someone else will think, or how it looks on your resume. At the same time, if you go to a school that is very hard to get in to and sends few people to graduate and professional school and gives out a lot of A's, then be aware that the grad/professional schools know this and will be looking closely at things like standardized test scores, to make sure they think you can do the rigorous courses that will be required for things like med/law school.