The field of Psychiatry

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Solideliquid

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Hello all.

Recently on the psychiatry forums, there have been a few topics being discussed in regards to psychiatry as it is viewed by the other medical specialties.

Would anyone who is either a resident, practicing physician out of residency, and of course medical students care to chime in on your basic feelings toward psychiatry as a field of medicine, and psychiatrists' usefulness/uselessness in medicine today?

Thanks!!
 
Solideliquid said:
Hello all.

Recently on the psychiatry forums, there have been a few topics being discussed in regards to psychiatry as it is viewed by the other medical specialties.

Would anyone who is either a resident, practicing physician out of residency, and of course medical students care to chime in on your basic feelings toward psychiatry as a field of medicine, and psychiatrists' usefulness/uselessness in medicine today?

Thanks!!

So, since you are asking, does that mean we won't get flamed?

I think the psychiatrists are an important part of the team, etc.
However, there seems to be a large proportion of quacks who have serious psych problems themselves. Whether it be their anti-social behavior, poor patient-physician relationships, or overall poor quality of care and organization...
I have worked with a couple of fantastic psychiatrists and, wow, they were great. I have a lot of admiration for some of them as well. I considered it for a while and considered neuro/psych combined programs but I had a few concerns. I wouldn't have been able to take it - maybe in practice I could have controlled the type of patients, but in residency I would have had to deal with child victims, etc. Overall, I didn't like the group of folks who would have been my collegues. I always wondered what came first, the crazy guys headed toward psych or psych made normal guys a little crazy.
I also have a lot of latent anger towards the profession. A friend and my dad have been treated by various psych docs and all they seem to do is drug them up.
A disclaimer: my limited and humble experience and I know I may have observed the exception rather than the rule in my dealings with the quacks. As always, the good docs make great psychiatrists and the bad ones are bad - just like all fields.
 
i was amazed at how life changing psychiatry can be. i think it's a wonderful specialty that does a ton of good for many people. i am a third year medical student.
 
I am certainly not going to flame anyone even if you think psychiatry is the spawn of satan 🙂.

Lately, many on the psych board (non-psychiatrists) have pointed out that (for one) psychiatry is highly disrespected as a medical field. I am only trying to form a census from you and other colleagues on this matter.

For the record I am starting my psychiatry residency this July. Don't let that stop you from posting your honest opinion. You are not going to hurt my feelings or anything 🙂

penguins said:
So, since you are asking, does that mean we won't get flamed?

I think the psychiatrists are an important part of the team, etc.
However, there seems to be a large proportion of quacks who have serious psych problems themselves. Whether it be their anti-social behavior, poor patient-physician relationships, or overall poor quality of care and organization...
I have worked with a couple of fantastic psychiatrists and, wow, they were great. I have a lot of admiration for some of them as well. I considered it for a while and considered neuro/psych combined programs but I had a few concerns. I wouldn't have been able to take it - maybe in practice I could have controlled the type of patients, but in residency I would have had to deal with child victims, etc. Overall, I didn't like the group of folks who would have been my collegues. I always wondered what came first, the crazy guys headed toward psych or psych made normal guys a little crazy.
I also have a lot of latent anger towards the profession. A friend and my dad have been treated by various psych docs and all they seem to do is drug them up.
A disclaimer: my limited and humble experience and I know I may have observed the exception rather than the rule in my dealings with the quacks. As always, the good docs make great psychiatrists and the bad ones are bad - just like all fields.
 
I am also starting psych residency in the fall.

I think the perception of psychiatry varies by institution. During my interviews, some applicants from other instutitions said they've gotten negative comments about their decision. Stuff like "but you're smart and could get into X field" or "why would you want to do that" etc.

OTOH at my institution, the psych department is very well respected, and the neuroscience courses are the highest rated in the medical school. When I've told people I wanted to do psych, I have received overwhelmingly positive comments from attendings, residents and students in a variety of fields. Stuff like how the field seems to be exploding and needs good people, etc. Sometimes I get a "I could never do that but I'm glad there are people like you who want to do it" which I don't consider to be particularly negative, since that's pretty much how I feel about their field, but not in a derogatory way.

It's not all sunshine and roses though. Even at this psych-friendly institution, I do hear some negative things. The most common being that sometimes it takes too long for the consult service to see a patient. (But never more than 24 hours!) When I've mentioned that the psych consult service here is the second-busiest, second only to IM, people usually say that they didn't know that, and cut them a little slack the next time.

And now that I've matched, when I'm on a medicine service, sometimes one of the residents will be talking about something and say "oh but you're not going to need this in psych" then I tell them that we do 6 months medicine/neuro/EM and a bunch of consult months when we see sick patients, and prescribe drugs with potentially nasty side effects, which reminds them that we do use the medical part of the MD too.

But the negative comments don't seem to be any more prevalent than the negative comments all specialties have about other specialties.

I'm interested to hear what y'all have to say 🙂
 
Psych is a very interesting and unique field of medicine on many levels. Perhaps its strangest quality is that the availability and efficacy of therapeutics has far suprassed our understanding of their mechanism. I still find it wierd when I read ads for psych meds when the manufacturer states that "the mechanism is not known."

Also many psych diagnoses are based strictly on clinical criteria and "lab" values don't have much of a role to play. I suspect this is one of the principle reasons that it has earned the enmity of many people (e.g. Scientology).

Finally, psych training is highly specialized and, I feel, diverges sharply from what we learn during med school. With the exception of maybe geriatric psych or consult psych, most psych attendings I've met are very, very good at what they do but have seem have to lost touch with medicine and surgery. I think this is the main reason that many within the field of medicine look down on psych.

Personally, I like psych a lot. It is an extremely interesting field that will (hopefully) be greatly expanded/enriched soon by basic research into psych disorders.
 
Psychiatry is no more than guesswork. Nobody knows how any of the meds work. The meds dont work that well. The meds have really bad side effects relative to other meds which tend to be a lot more tolerable. Diagnosing someone in psychiatry has very little science to it becaues you are dependent 100% on what the patient tells you. Patients with psych problems have a big incentive to lie to doctors, limiting your diagnostic skills.

There are no standards to diagnoses in psychiatry. One particular psych patient can pass for about 500 different psych diseases. They all blend together and cant be distinguished because nobody undersstands the pathophysiology of this stuff.

Psychiatry has become a method to excuse bad behavior. Every murderer has a psychiatrist on standby to step up and say that he is not guilty due to insanity.

I could easily go into a psychiatrists office and successfully convince that I'm schizophrenic. Then I could go to 50 other psychiatrists and get 50 other different diagnoses.

The main problem with psych is that pathophysiology is NONEXISTANT. Maybe this will change someday, but until then, psychiatry is lower than the other medical fields.
 
As psychiatry slowly evolves into "neuropsychiatry"/behavioral neurology, the stigma towards the field is starting to fade away.
 
We have a volunteer service here where we go out to local homeless shelters once a month or so. Every time, a resident is asked to come along and act as the attending physician for the night.

One time, a psychiatry resident came along and I found myself wondering, "What use is he gonna be?"

As it turned out, the 1st patient we see that night was a lunatic! The fact that the doc was able to coax an interview out of him and make sense of a patient who was just blabbing nonstop immediately opened a newfound sense of respect for him from me. Actually, he turned out to be very useful because many of these patients were put on antipsychotic drugs when it turned out that they didnt need it at all!
 
penguins said:
So, since you are asking, does that mean we won't get flamed?

I think the psychiatrists are an important part of the team, etc.
However, there seems to be a large proportion of quacks who have serious psych problems themselves. Whether it be their anti-social behavior, poor patient-physician relationships, or overall poor quality of care and organization...

Um..ok..the way you write it, only the 'crazy' students go into psych. Do you really not think there are lots of other residents, who are affected by mental disorders, that go into other fields too?? People usually dont volunteer that information so you would never know.

Mental disorders are present in many individuals in every field. Many of these people with jobs are high-functioning and should not be looked down upon.

Finally, I have seen people with "poor patient-physician relationships..." in every field of medicine, not one more than another. You are stigmatizing the psychiatry field even further and further justifying why more research needs to be done in this field to prove to people like you that these illnesses are just like other illnesses and can be controlled.
 
I'm going into psych and I actually agree with some of the posts above. I think psych does attract a few of those students with issues they want to work out. I've also seen it attract people that want to slack, which is unfortunate - psych shouldn't be a substitute for forgetting medicine. However, I've also seen this in a lot of the non-competitive fields like FM and IM.

In general, I think many specialties appreciate psych but don't necessarily understand the spectrum of it. Our third year clerkships in this specialty are weak and make it seem very bare bones and limited.
 
ORBITAL BEBOP said:
Um..ok..the way you write it, only the 'crazy' students go into psych. Do you really not think there are lots of other residents, who are affected by mental disorders, that go into other fields too?? People usually dont volunteer that information so you would never know.

Mental disorders are present in many individuals in every field. Many of these people with jobs are high-functioning and should not be looked down upon.

Finally, I have seen people with "poor patient-physician relationships..." in every field of medicine, not one more than another. You are stigmatizing the psychiatry field even further and further justifying why more research needs to be done in this field to prove to people like you that these illnesses are just like other illnesses and can be controlled.

I said "large proportion" (not ALL and not MAJORITY), maybe I should have said relatively large proportion... and I stand by that OPINION. I am not talking about mental disorders, I am talking about quacks. Like psych docs who act visibly disturbed. I don't mean persons with depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc. Obviously, there are "visibly disturbed" docs represented in every field. And you are right, there are poor pysician-patient realtionships in every field. I am of the opinion that it is more represented in psych.
As I said, I have a lot of admiration for the good ones and I couldn't do their job. My 2 friends that went into psych, were attracted to the field because of their own psych "issues" - this is normal. Some people become interested in neuro because their grandmother had alzheimers and some people become interested in cardiology because their dad had heart problems.
The pathology is psych is so complex. I just wonder if a vulnerable person goes into the field of psych, if they are more apt to get "better" or "worse" themselves.
Poety is right, some slackers get in the field. Since it is relatively easy to get into now, it just perpetuates the cycle of getting some bad eggs.
Hurricane, SolidLiquid and Poety will be the good eggs and recruit more good eggs. 👍
 
MacGyver said:
Psychiatry is no more than guesswork. Nobody knows how any of the meds work. The meds dont work that well. The meds have really bad side effects relative to other meds which tend to be a lot more tolerable. Diagnosing someone in psychiatry has very little science to it becaues you are dependent 100% on what the patient tells you. Patients with psych problems have a big incentive to lie to doctors, limiting your diagnostic skills.

There are no standards to diagnoses in psychiatry. One particular psych patient can pass for about 500 different psych diseases. They all blend together and cant be distinguished because nobody undersstands the pathophysiology of this stuff.

Psychiatry has become a method to excuse bad behavior. Every murderer has a psychiatrist on standby to step up and say that he is not guilty due to insanity.

I could easily go into a psychiatrists office and successfully convince that I'm schizophrenic. Then I could go to 50 other psychiatrists and get 50 other different diagnoses.

The main problem with psych is that pathophysiology is NONEXISTANT. Maybe this will change someday, but until then, psychiatry is lower than the other medical fields.

Your statement here presupposes that good doctoring is entirely based on understanding of pathophysiology. An algorithmic practice of "If A causes symptom B, then do intervention C which modulates A". This ignores all of the "art" of medicine, like establishing a relationship and obtaining a history (which IMHO psychiatrists are great at).

You also ignore the entire history of medicine by stating that an absence of understanding of pathophysiology makes diagnosis and treatment less intellectually rigorous in some way. The great doctors of history (from Hippocrates and Maimonides all the way through Cushing and Osler) diagnosed and treated illnesses for which they had little to no understanding of the mechanism. The absence of clear pathophysiologic cause makes the work more, not less, intellectually rigorous. I find the fact that psychiatry remains the last great unexplored frontier in medicine extremely exciting.

The idea that malingerers can fake psychiatric illness, is neither here nor there. The fact remains that there are millions of patients who suffer from depression, mania, anxiety, psychosis, delirium, and dementia , and need (and respond to) psychiatric treatment. BTW, I've diagnosed plenty of malingerers who where feigning somatic illness, that were totally missed by the internists/surgeons/whoever treating them.
 
penguins said:
I said "large proportion" (not ALL and not MAJORITY), maybe I should have said relatively large proportion... and I stand by that OPINION. I am not talking about mental disorders, I am talking about quacks. Like psych docs who act visibly disturbed. I don't mean persons with depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc. Obviously, there are "visibly disturbed" docs represented in every field. And you are right, there are poor pysician-patient realtionships in every field. I am of the opinion that it is more represented in psych.


I have seen some pretty narcissistic and various personality disorders in alot of surgeons. Psychiatrists have to deal with people ALOT (sometimes an hour at a time), so their quirks may come out. In other fields, the contact with patients may be more limited and not as personal, so poor patient-physician rapport may not be as evident.

Why is there stigma on people who may have relatives with mental disorders (or themselves) who goes into psych vs a person who has relatives with pulmonary problems (or themselves) who goes into the pulmonary field? They both are interested in the field and will have a great deal of empathy for their patients. Would you want nonempathetic, nonbelieving people to go into psych (like MacGuyver)?
 
ORBITAL BEBOP said:
I have seen some pretty narcissistic and various personality disorders in alot of surgeons. Psychiatrists have to deal with people ALOT (sometimes an hour at a time), so their quirks may come out. In other fields, the contact with patients may be more limited and not as personal, so poor patient-physician rapport may not be as evident.

Why is there stigma on people who may have relatives with mental disorders (or themselves) who goes into psych vs a person who has relatives with pulmonary problems (or themselves) who goes into the pulmonary field? They both are interested in the field and will have a great deal of empathy for their patients. Would you want nonempathetic, nonbelieving people to go into psych (like MacGuyver)?

Very good point. That is what I wonder, is it that their quirks come out or were there more to start with. Very good point about the relationship. We also might have higher standards for the psychiatrists. No one really expects surgeons to be people persons but maybe we (I) expect the psychiatrist to be a people person give the nature of the field so are more shocked when they aren't nice people or have a poor repor with their patients.
You are right, I would much rather have an empathetic, believing person go into the field than someone who agreed with MacGuyver. Definitely.
 
Doc Samson said:
Your statement here presupposes that good doctoring is entirely based on understanding of pathophysiology. An algorithmic practice of "If A causes symptom B, then do intervention C which modulates A". This ignores all of the "art" of medicine, like establishing a relationship and obtaining a history (which IMHO psychiatrists are great at).
.

Exactly what I was thinking. The goal is to improve the patients health. Understanding the causes is secondary! Yes we are scientists, but only in order to serve the patients.
 
Thanks Penguins for the compliment! I am a bit.... eccentric though 😉

However, I can't tolerate boutique style psych, if you're not crazy - I'm not hearing it 😛 Hope I'm not that psych you were talking about 😱 But really, I don't think ANYONE wants to listen to people drone on... and on.... and.. on.... <stabs self in eye> 😳
 
Poety said:
Thanks Penguins for the compliment! I am a bit.... eccentric though 😉

However, I can't tolerate boutique style psych, if you're not crazy - I'm not hearing it 😛 Hope I'm not that psych you were talking about 😱 But really, I don't think ANYONE wants to listen to people drone on... and on.... and.. on.... <stabs self in eye> 😳

*Gets her a band-aid*
 
DocSamson 👍

MacGynver 👎

oh and i'm not going into psych.
 
MacGyver said:
Psychiatry is no more than guesswork. Nobody knows how any of the meds work. The meds dont work that well. The meds have really bad side effects relative to other meds which tend to be a lot more tolerable. Diagnosing someone in psychiatry has very little science to it becaues you are dependent 100% on what the patient tells you. Patients with psych problems have a big incentive to lie to doctors, limiting your diagnostic skills.

There are no standards to diagnoses in psychiatry. One particular psych patient can pass for about 500 different psych diseases. They all blend together and cant be distinguished because nobody undersstands the pathophysiology of this stuff.

Psychiatry has become a method to excuse bad behavior. Every murderer has a psychiatrist on standby to step up and say that he is not guilty due to insanity.

I could easily go into a psychiatrists office and successfully convince that I'm schizophrenic. Then I could go to 50 other psychiatrists and get 50 other different diagnoses.

The main problem with psych is that pathophysiology is NONEXISTANT. Maybe this will change someday, but until then, psychiatry is lower than the other medical fields.
Every statement you made is either debatable or just plain wrong. With all due respect to you, you should restrict your comments to the business side of medicine where your knowledge is.
 
MacGyver said:
Psychiatry is no more than guesswork. Nobody knows how any of the meds work. The meds dont work that well. The meds have really bad side effects relative to other meds which tend to be a lot more tolerable. Diagnosing someone in psychiatry has very little science to it becaues you are dependent 100% on what the patient tells you. Patients with psych problems have a big incentive to lie to doctors, limiting your diagnostic skills.

There are no standards to diagnoses in psychiatry. One particular psych patient can pass for about 500 different psych diseases. They all blend together and cant be distinguished because nobody undersstands the pathophysiology of this stuff.

Psychiatry has become a method to excuse bad behavior. Every murderer has a psychiatrist on standby to step up and say that he is not guilty due to insanity.

I could easily go into a psychiatrists office and successfully convince that I'm schizophrenic. Then I could go to 50 other psychiatrists and get 50 other different diagnoses.

The main problem with psych is that pathophysiology is NONEXISTANT. Maybe this will change someday, but until then, psychiatry is lower than the other medical fields.
Please, go back to studying micro. Idiotic post.
 
MacGyver said:
Psychiatry is no more than guesswork. Nobody knows how any of the meds work. The meds dont work that well. The meds have really bad side effects relative to other meds which tend to be a lot more tolerable. Diagnosing someone in psychiatry has very little science to it becaues you are dependent 100% on what the patient tells you. Patients with psych problems have a big incentive to lie to doctors, limiting your diagnostic skills.

There are no standards to diagnoses in psychiatry. One particular psych patient can pass for about 500 different psych diseases. They all blend together and cant be distinguished because nobody undersstands the pathophysiology of this stuff.

Psychiatry has become a method to excuse bad behavior. Every murderer has a psychiatrist on standby to step up and say that he is not guilty due to insanity.

I could easily go into a psychiatrists office and successfully convince that I'm schizophrenic. Then I could go to 50 other psychiatrists and get 50 other different diagnoses.

The main problem with psych is that pathophysiology is NONEXISTANT. Maybe this will change someday, but until then, psychiatry is lower than the other medical fields.
👎 😕

Where did you read all that???
 
Did you guys read about that study a couple years ago? I think it was about ADHD and whether talk therapy had any effect on patient outcomes.

The study showed that therapy alone had no effect, meds alone had a significant effect, but meds combined with therapy had the greatest effect on improving patient outcomes.

I wish I could remember the study, as it was pretty interesting. It could have been good evidence to support more psychiatrists being trained in therapy instead of med pushing.
 
HooahDOc said:
The study showed that therapy alone had no effect, meds alone had a significant effect, but meds combined with therapy had the greatest effect on improving patient outcomes.

This is pretty much a recurring theme with a lot of psych disorders.
Psychotherapy + Meds > Meds or Psychotherapy alone
 
I did a combined IM/Psych residency and have worked in both specialties. Psychiatry, like IM, can get old fast if your patient base lacks diversity (socioeconomic, cultural, etc.). In other words, if you practice in an exclusive suburban area, you'll see many middle-aged women with MDD or depressive D/O NOS; teenagers with ADHD, ODD, conduct disorder, and parent-child relation problems; occasional D&AA/SA issues; etc. If you practice in the inner city, be prepared for a plethora of substance abuse patients and antisocial PD patients. If you work in an inpatient facility, you'll practice more on the medical side and see a larger population of people with significant pathology (e.g., chronic undiff schiz, parnoid schiz, neurleptic malignants, etc.).

Psych is a great speciality, but it CAN get old fast. This is true, however, of any specialty. I worked as an internist for a year and found myself treating the same types of patients over and over again: NIDDM, OM, bronchial asthma, obesity, COPD, DDD, DJD, fibromyalgia, OSA, etc. Meh, it got old fast.

Your question is actually very subjective. You are the only that can truly answer it. How others feel about you as a future psychiatrist is irrelevant. How you feel about yourself and your work is what truly matters. If some neurosurgeon gives you a flippant or condescending comment about your chosen speciality, what do you care? You have undergone the same amount of training as most other specialties (e.g., peds, IM, general surgery, etc.). You are still an MD. You save lives. You change lives. You impact lives. As a psychiatrist, you will make a difference.

Now, having said that, I will admit that many physicians, health care providers, and laymen will claim that a psychiatrist is nothing more than a pill pushing head shrinker. If all you do is Rx and do med reviews, then maybe there's truth to that statement. I do more than just 10-15 minute med reviews. I do some therapy. I round at a few hospitals. I do some part-time work at an ER. I also work doing IM at a local urgent care on a contingency basis (to keep my clinical skills honed). Variety keeps things interesting and keeps your skills sharp.

Medicine in general, not just psychiatry, is experiencing many problems. I've become dissatisfied with my job as a physician, which is why I attended law school and am transitioning into law. If you can, try to do a dual IM or FP/psych residency; give yourself options just in case you decide it's not for you. No matter what, don't let the opinions of others affect your decision. Psychiatry can be very rewarding, both professionally and financially.
 
MacGyver said:
Psychiatry is no more than guesswork. Nobody knows how any of the meds work. The meds dont work that well. The meds have really bad side effects relative to other meds which tend to be a lot more tolerable. Diagnosing someone in psychiatry has very little science to it becaues you are dependent 100% on what the patient tells you. Patients with psych problems have a big incentive to lie to doctors, limiting your diagnostic skills.

There are no standards to diagnoses in psychiatry. One particular psych patient can pass for about 500 different psych diseases. They all blend together and cant be distinguished because nobody undersstands the pathophysiology of this stuff.

Psychiatry has become a method to excuse bad behavior. Every murderer has a psychiatrist on standby to step up and say that he is not guilty due to insanity.

I could easily go into a psychiatrists office and successfully convince that I'm schizophrenic. Then I could go to 50 other psychiatrists and get 50 other different diagnoses.

The main problem with psych is that pathophysiology is NONEXISTANT. Maybe this will change someday, but until then, psychiatry is lower than the other medical fields.

No standards of diagnoses??? Have you ever heard of the DSM-IV????? Some think it may be TOO standardized.
 
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