The "Gunner" Idea

[Promethean]

That sounds like a great group dynamic. I've learned as an undergrad that studying in groups has been extremely beneficial for me, and collaborating with other people has pushed my knowledge leaps and bounds in my classes. I hope my future class of students is like yours. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses..

If you want to make it that way, you can always bring it yourself.

Be pro-social. Make a study guide or a quizlet to share. Organize events. Cooperate actively, and encourage others to do the same. I've noticed that it only takes a handful of people to take the lead in developing a positive dynamic for everyone to get the idea that it all just works so much better when we are pulling together.

We have a few folks who weren't into it, who wanted to do their own thing, and that's cool, too. As long as you make it clear that everyone who wants to participate is welcome, you'll have no shortage of collaborators. And having 10 or 20 people split up a list of objectives and compile a study guide is way more efficient than each person trying to reproduce the same efforts independently. It's funny... I have always hated mandatory group projects, because they always turned into situations where I had to do all the work while other folks rode along on my coat-tails. But when it is totally voluntary, they really seem to work much better. People don't want to be seen as free-loaders because they don't want to be left out of future efforts.

Unless your school is true P/F, which I'm assuming it's not, the fact you don't have a curve is meaningless. You ARE competing against each other for ranks and percentiles. But with the spirit of your post, that doesn't mean there can't be meaningful collaboration and teamwork. The two can and usually do coexist for 95% of medical students.

I hear you. We aren't P/F, and there is a ranking somewhere on our horizon... but still, everyone seems to understand that ultimately, their race is only with themselves. The time and energy spent tearing down someone else could have been better applied to study and actual attainment of excellence. Like you say, most people get that. I'm just very grateful not to have any of the other kind of Gunner on the loose in our group.

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[Promethean]

That's how it is at my school. Bro you're not behind on lectures? Gunner. What, you studied on saturday AND sunday? Gunner. Like, OMG, you study outside resources and try to learn things that aren't in our lecture notes? Gunner.

We say things like that, but as a joke. Mostly.

There are a handful of people in my class that I don't much like. They are unrelentingly negative and hypercritical whenever something fairly small goes wrong. When they call someone a gunner, I think they mean it. But then, when someone always has something unkind or unhelpful to say, it becomes prudent to just stop listening to them, or at least to avoid taking them seriously. So, yeah, consider the source. If someone you respect, who is doing well and helping others, has a criticism of someone else's study patterns... well, that might be legit. If busting on people is just their M.O., well, that might not make them a Gunner, but it surely makes them worthy of being ignored.

 

[seminoma]

We say things like that, but as a joke. Mostly.

There are a handful of people in my class that I don't much like. They are unrelentingly negative and hypercritical whenever something fairly small goes wrong. When they call someone a gunner, I think they mean it. But then, when someone always has something unkind or unhelpful to say, it becomes prudent to just stop listening to them, or at least to avoid taking them seriously. So, yeah, consider the source. If someone you respect, who is doing well and helping others, has a criticism of someone else's study patterns... well, that might be legit. If busting on people is just their M.O., well, that might not make them a Gunner, but it surely makes them worthy of being ignored.

For sure. The use of "gunner" around here is either to deflect the "you study too much" critique to someone else or to make someone who studies hard and/or performs better academically feel bad. Essentially "gunner" is directed at a normal person who just works hard. People here broadcast how they "only read half the chapter for the quiz today" or "just finished reading that 5 minutes ago" as if it's cool.

 

[cs24]

For sure. The use of "gunner" around here is either to deflect the "you study too much" critique to someone else or to make someone who studies hard and/or performs better academically feel bad. Essentially "gunner" is directed at a normal person who just works hard. People here broadcast how they "only read half the chapter for the quiz today" or "just finished reading that 5 minutes ago" as if it's cool.

It also gives them a good excuse if they don't do as well as they'd hoped on the quiz. And if they do in fact do well, then they are that much more awesome for doing it without REALLY trying to prepare like your gunner self amiright?

 

[PhillyMed777]

It also gives them a good excuse if they don't do as well as they'd hoped on the quiz. And if they do in fact do well, then they are that much more awesome for doing it without REALLY trying to prepare like your gunner self amiright?

unfortunately, yes you're right. only one way to please 'em; run around chanting p=md.

 

[Promethean]

It also gives them a good excuse if they don't do as well as they'd hoped on the quiz. And if they do in fact do well, then they are that much more awesome for doing it without REALLY trying to prepare like your gunner self amiright?

I do think that ego defense is a lot of where this gunner talk comes from.

There are a couple people from my class who have really had their self-image disrupted, when they failed or only barely passed the first quiz or two. A lot of people come to medical school having never gotten anything less than an A, where the occasional B is a tragedy. When they find themselves only passing and even a B is out of reach... it can help salve some of the blow to their ego to imagine that people who are doing well must be doing something shady or insane in order to accomplish it.

 

[drmarkgreene]

It's kind of funny, we had our clinical director come in and ask how many of us were studying for boards at the start of OMS-2. No one raised their hand. Even though basically everyone has a copy of first aid and people were blowing up facebook because our Kaplan wasnt active from day one. Anti-gunners are the new gunners.

LOL

 

[seminoma]

It also gives them a good excuse if they don't do as well as they'd hoped on the quiz. And if they do in fact do well, then they are that much more awesome for doing it without REALLY trying to prepare like your gunner self amiright?

Yeah, and the sad part is some of the more naive students start to feel bad about themselves because they think people are studying way less and still doing as well or better. Just contributes to the feelings of inferiority so many med students have. In that regard I'd rather have people hate me because I study "too much" than make people feel bad because I'm "too smart and don't even need to study to do well".

I do think that ego defense is a lot of where this gunner talk comes from.

There are a couple people from my class who have really had their self-image disrupted, when they failed or only barely passed the first quiz or two. A lot of people come to medical school having never gotten anything less than an A, where the occasional B is a tragedy. When they find themselves only passing and even a B is out of reach... it can help salve some of the blow to their ego to imagine that people who are doing well must be doing something shady or insane in order to accomplish it.

Lucky for me I came in as a total f*up undergrad.

 

[drmarkgreene]

Lucky for me I came in as a total f*up undergrad.

If only I had "wanted" to be a "gunner" in my trip through undergrad I would not have had to go through the postbacc process at 26 and struggle with two years of back to back alternate lists ATTEMPTING to get IN with endeavors of being a "gunner". Funny how life works.

 

[Shjanzey]

If only I had "wanted" to be a "gunner" in my trip through undergrad I would not have had to go through the postbacc process at 26 and struggle with two years of back to back alternate lists ATTEMPTING to get IN with endeavors of being a "gunner". Funny how life works.

Don't worry. When you get in, that extra level of appreciation for where you are at and how you got there will carry you through the times you think you are ******ed. Took me five years to get in. Afterwards, I went from barely passing to hitting A's consistently. Just takes persistence, patience, a willingness to make changes and a whole lot of hard work.

 

[seminoma]

Don't worry. When you get in, that extra level of appreciation for where you are at and how you got there will carry you through the times you think you are ******ed. Took me five years to get in. Afterwards, I went from barely passing to hitting A's consistently. Just takes persistence, patience, a willingness to make changes and a whole lot of hard work.

Yup this was true for me too. Once you're in it's a whole new ballgame.

 

[FiveOClock]

For sure. The use of "gunner" around here is either to deflect the "you study too much" critique to someone else or to make someone who studies hard and/or performs better academically feel bad. Essentially "gunner" is directed at a normal person who just works hard. People here broadcast how they "only read half the chapter for the quiz today" or "just finished reading that 5 minutes ago" as if it's cool.

Really shocking that this is kind of crap is still thrown around in professional school (esp medical school). We know you didn't read half the chapter or read it 5 mins ago. And no one is impressed if you didn't. The fact is that most people in medical school want to be some kind of high-paid, specialist and most of them will not because they cannot be i.e. it is impossible for them to reach this goal.

 

[LetItSnow]

Huh. At my (vet) school, we didn't use gunner for people that just plain studied a lot. Nobody was negative about the people that just quietly studied their ass off and did well (or didn't study their ass off and still did well).

It was for people that were past some arbitrary line of bitching about missing one point on that last exam .... or griping that they're going to get their first A- because of some (whine) horrible awful teacher who (more whine) put ridiculous and unfair questions on the exam .... Or people who got an A and would subsequently vocalize their disdain for someone who maybe worked their ass off but "only" managed a B+.

Bottom line, it was for the people that paid way too much attention to the grading aspect of things, and especially when they were condescending to people who didn't quite meet their standard.

 

[seminoma]

Huh. At my (vet) school, we didn't use gunner for people that just plain studied a lot. Nobody was negative about the people that just quietly studied their ass off and did well (or didn't study their ass off and still did well).

It was for people that were past some arbitrary line of bitching about missing one point on that last exam .... or griping that they're going to get their first A- because of some (whine) horrible awful teacher who (more whine) put ridiculous and unfair questions on the exam .... Or people who got an A and would subsequently vocalize their disdain for someone who maybe worked their ass off but "only" managed a B+.

Bottom line, it was for the people that paid way too much attention to the grading aspect of things, and especially when they were condescending to people who didn't quite meet their standard.

What about someone who got a C and complained about ridiculous and unfair questions on the exam? Did they get the same treatment as the person who got an A- with the same complaint?

 

[LetItSnow]

What about someone who got a C and complained about ridiculous and unfair questions on the exam? Did they get the same treatment as the person who got an A- with the same complaint?

Life is never that black and white. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Probably dependent on how much of a d-bag they were. Just like getting called a gunner probably was impacted by the level of d-bagedness.

 

[seminoma]

Life is never that black and white. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Probably dependent on how much of a d-bag they were. Just like getting called a gunner probably was impacted by the level of d-bagedness.

I'm trying to make the point that people who do well aren't allowed to complain at all and if they do then everyone says they're a dbag. Not true if a B or C student makes the exact same complaint(s).

 

[TwinsFan]

I think what everybody is sick of is the people with 95s who pretend they are going to fail or people who missed 2 questions and whine about them in some sort of humble brag nonsense.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm trying to make the point that people who do well aren't allowed to complain at all and if they do then everyone says they're a dbag. Not true if a B or C student makes the exact same complaint(s).

I understood your point. My point was that like everything in life, there are people at all ends. You can be a gunner d-bag, and you can be a sucky student d-bag. You can be an amazing 4.0 student who also happens to be the nicest person on the planet, and you can be a 2.1 student who is similarly awesome.

*shrug* Just don't see what your point has to do with gunners. But carry on.

 

[drmarkgreene]

I understood your point. My point was that like everything in life, there are people at all ends. You can be a gunner d-bag, and you can be a sucky student d-bag. You can be an amazing 4.0 student who also happens to be the nicest person on the planet, and you can be a 2.1 student who is similarly awesome.

This pretty much sums it up.

PS - @LetItSnow, your story is a great one (the path you took).

 

[Oh_Gee]

i just study more cause i'm slower than other students

and i like to rehash tests that we just took so i can discuss and learn with my friends

 

[PhillyMed777]

i just study more cause i'm slower than other students

and i like to rehash tests that we just took so i can discuss and learn with my friends

I'm the same...need more study time not only cause i wanna do well, but also because i'm way slower.

 

[Oh_Gee]

I'm the same...need more study time not only cause i wanna do well, but also because i'm way slower.

we should make a support group and t shirts

 

[toothsleuth11]

Now im just a dentist hehehe but you can trust me. Everybody tries, regardless of its medical or dental school. If you try and do well -> Gunner. If you try and don't do well -> hard worker.

 

[amad01]

.

 

[Psai]

I'm in the cadaver lab looking at a body and another student comes over and starts checking it out... Trying to reassure myself about what I'm looking at, I point at a structure and say, hey this is x right? His reply... "maybe" (not an "unsure" maybe but a sly shrugging, almost smiling maybe)... I then point to another and say, I think this is x what do you think? ... "maybe"... I then point to an absolutely obvious muscle and say this is x right?... "maybe" (as if I was asking a professor on an exam and he can't tell me) he smiles and leaves the room... definitely rubbed me the wrong way and I would call that a gunner move

A guy was looking at your body and you pestered him with annoying questions when he's trying to study. Then you judge him as if you knew his intentions when he didn't do anything wrong. You called him sly out of nowhere when hes not even attempting to engage you. Maybe he dodoesn want to give you wrong information if he's not sure. Yeah he's obviously the gunner, not you.

 

[amad01]

.

 

[Psai]

Why do you think he is obligated to help you? And you know his test score why? I rest my case

 

[Anicetus]

Now im just a dentist hehehe but you can trust me. Everybody tries, regardless of its medical or dental school. If you try and do well -> Gunner. If you try and don't do well -> hard worker.

/thread

 

[amichel]

Why do you think he is obligated to help you? And you know his test score why? I rest my case

Nobody is obligated to help anybody. But most of us do so anyways because we're not terrible people. Especially when it's no skin off our own back to do so.

It's super weird to not give a one word answer to an anatomy question that you know the answer too. If someone is constantly asking questions or being annoying in some other way, then you either leave or ask them to shut up. You don't purposely evade their question.

 

[Wordead]

Nobody is obligated to help anybody. But most of us do so anyways because we're not terrible people. Especially when it's no skin off our own back to do so.

It's super weird to not give a one word answer to an anatomy question that you know the answer too. If someone is constantly asking questions or being annoying in some other way, then you either leave or ask them to shut up. You don't purposely evade their question.

Or he probably thought that it would snowball into having to teach you the entire thing and you were asking about the SCM and seemed like a lazy student who wanted to be spoonfed? I dont see how it's gunnery to not want to tutor your fellow students, you have access to the same resources they do - and no, your fellow student is not one of them.

 

[amichel]

Or he probably thought that it would snowball into having to teach you the entire thing and you were asking about the SCM and seemed like a lazy student who wanted to be spoonfed? I dont see how it's gunnery to not want to tutor your fellow students, you have access to the same resources they do - and no, your fellow student is not one of them.

Well I guess my med school is different than yours... We don't study silently in anatomy lab... We help each other, quiz each other, etc. The people who are good at anatomy actively seek to help others.

Also, I'm not the poster who posted this story. I just agreed that it was weird. I'm not sure I'd call it being a gunner either though.

Like I said, he could have just answered the first question and then, if annoyed by further questions, said so. I'm not sure why anyone's first assumption when asked a simple question would be "great, now I have to teach this person everything".

 

[TBV]

If you asked what the SCM was they probably thought you were f**king with them and decided to f*ck with you back

 

[Wordead]

Well I guess my med school is different than yours... We don't study silently in anatomy lab... We help each other, quiz each other, etc. The people who are good at anatomy actively seek to help others.

Also, I'm not the poster who posted this story. I just agreed that it was weird. I'm not sure I'd call it being a gunner either though.

Like I said, he could have just answered the first question and then, if annoyed by further questions, said so. I'm not sure why anyone's first assumption when asked a simple question would be "great, now I have to teach this person everything".

Your entire med school class studies the same way and learns the same way?

Or maybe there's a few super visible people that do that. And at my school, those were not the people who actually did well. Just the ones that wanted to feel self-important.

 

[amichel]

Your entire med school class studies the same way and learns the same way?

Or maybe there's a few super visible people that do that. And at my school, those were not the people who actually did well. Just the ones that wanted to feel self-important.

No of course we don't all study the same way. But I just don't know anyone who would purposely go out of their way to NOT answer someone's question. As for your second point, what a cynical way to see people.

You actually think people who try to help teach other people are just trying to feel self important? Maybe some of them but not most.

Whatever, I'm done arguing.

 

[BlazerMS]

Yep. Hearing it in my group of friends and it bugs me. Gunner, from what I understood from the beginning, is somebody who is willing to sabotage others to get ahead, not somebody who gives it their best. I guess it makes some people feel better labeling others who are doing better than they are with this negatively associated word.

 

[TBV]

Your entire med school class studies the same way and learns the same way?

Or maybe there's a few super visible people that do that. And at my school, those were not the people who actually did well. Just the ones that wanted to feel self-important.

+1 to this. My school had the people that were constantly in the anatomy lab learning and getting special help from the instructors, same people did not do so hot.

 

[bd290]

It's kind of a nebulous idea, normally I'd say extra time doesn't put someone in the category, but then I knew people who didn't take any days off for some third year rotations - at that point you're making people look relatively bad because they're human and want their 1 day off a week.

Personally as a resident I think I'd find these people ****ing annoying and probably aim to bend the arc of the universe back towards justice by screwing with them.

 

[sloop]

Nobody is obligated to help anybody.

I actually disagree with this. We all stand on the shoulders of the people who taught us. I view some amount of tutoring or informally helping classmates with material as an obligation of those who have mastered the material. Those who have benefited the most from an educational community owe it to that community to give something back. Now, if you're going to spend substantial amounts of your time doing this formally (i.e. tutoring), I think you should get some compensation, but I still think it is something you should do.

Then again, I love teaching and I've been tutoring classmates since high school. It's really not that much of a chore and people really appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighborhood gunner.

 

[Psai]

I actually disagree with this. We all stand on the shoulders of the people who taught us. I view some amount of tutoring or informally helping classmates with material as an obligation of those who have mastered the material. Those who have benefited the most from an educational community owe it to that community to give something back. Now, if you're going to spend substantial amounts of your time doing this formally (i.e. tutoring), I think you should get some compensation, but I still think it is something you should do.

Then again, I love teaching and I've been tutoring classmates since high school. It's really not that much of a chore and people really appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighborhood gunner.

No. You don't owe any of your classmates any of your time.

 

[sloop]

No. You don't owe any of your classmates any of your time.

I disagree. I've learned a lot from my classmates and learned the material in part because others have taken the time to patiently explain things to me when I didn't understand. I think that helping other people gain knowledge and understanding is an important commitment of academics.

 

[amichel]

I actually disagree with this. We all stand on the shoulders of the people who taught us. I view some amount of tutoring or informally helping classmates with material as an obligation of those who have mastered the material. Those who have benefited the most from an educational community owe it to that community to give something back. Now, if you're going to spend substantial amounts of your time doing this formally (i.e. tutoring), I think you should get some compensation, but I still think it is something you should do.

Then again, I love teaching and I've been tutoring classmates since high school. It's really not that much of a chore and people really appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighborhood gunner.

Yah, I don't really disagree. I was responding to someone saying that I was somehow forcing my classmates to help me.

 

[wjs010]

The trick is study how much you need and screw the gunners. It's not how much studying it takes: it's the end result that counts