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Originally posted by dave262
There is nothing wrong with a little charity work, but it is another thing entirely to say that I should have to pay for Joe Blows $175000 triple bypass
Originally posted by medic8m
Im not trying to be argumentative but that is the same argument people use against funding education. Namely, grants and loans for higher education. So everyone taking any federal or states money (90% of med students) is guilty. The idea is to promote the well being of society. If more people are able to go college or med school with government's help, this is good for society. The same thing can be said for peoples health.
You ask why you should have to pay for someone else's surgery - Why should I have to pay for(subsidize) your education(about the same cost)?
Originally posted by dave262
I'm done being a member of a group that wants to turn the US healthcare system into a socialist pile of crap. Please tell me im not alone in this endeavor.......
There is nothing wrong with a little charity work, but it is another thing entirely to say that I should have to pay for Joe Blows $175000 triple bypass after he spent the last 10 years unemployed sitting on a couch eating cheatos and smoking.
I could go on and on, but I'm to tired from studying. So im going to sleep. (i know, its 2PM, we just finished midterms though)
go TCU frogs
Originally posted by descartes
I too am going to cancel my membership with AMSA. When I signed up I had no idea what they were all about. It seems to me that no matter what the issue is, they just take the most extremely liberal side possible. The final straw for me was the whole "don't take anything from a drug rep" argument. Screw that, I am a poor med student and I wont turn down free lunch, or free pens, or whatever else. They keep saying that it will affect which drugs doctors prescribe, but I think we all know that that this idea is totally crazy. Ask any doctor if they would prescribe a med more because the drug rep gave them something. They will all tell you that they prescribe what they feel is best for the patient.
Originally posted by medic8m
Namely, grants and loans for higher education. So everyone taking any federal or states money (90% of med students) is guilty.
Originally posted by Blade28
But those are loans! I borrow the max amount every year via Stafford/Perkins loans, but I have to pay them back. Not a "handout" or anything.
Originally posted by gschl1234
I find it disheartening that some day I'll have colleagues who believe health care to be a privilege and not a right as the OP seems to believe. Why didn't you become a lawyer or investment banker?
Originally posted by carrigallen
Did you know that 1/3 to 1/2 of patients admitted to emergency rooms will never be collected upon? I think we should continue providing full medical care to the uninsured, but make efforts to reduce the number of uninsured in the country..it's ~15% now.
Originally posted by mooklyster
Could not agree more. Cmon folks, the issue is not whether or not we care as doctors, but whether or not this form of medicine is the way to go. How can any reasonable person think that a system that is, according to its proponents, too expensive for most to afford now believe that adding a layer of government will make it more reasonable. All it will do is add another layer of bull to getting things done. Not only that, but do not villify doctors for earning what they do and wishing to keep it. We work hard to get there, and furthermore, each and every person in this country has the ability to better themselves should they do so. This is simply rewarding people for making poor life decisions.
Before the hate starts pouring in, do not write in with tales of woe, of course there are those who find themselves in poeitions through no fault of their own, but that is what charities, medicaid, and medicare are for, not the massive extortion by the government. This is simply redistribution policy by the left in a different coat.
Originally posted by efex101
Have you personally experienced socialized medicine? because me thinks not.
Also, in response to another post, regarding the uninsured being deserving as taxpayers, realize that those at the bottom of the income scale pay no taxes, and only serve to drain from the system. I am not suggesting that they are undeserving of compassion, just making sure that we deal with the facts here.
Originally posted by efex101
Have you personally experienced socialized medicine? because me thinks not. Socialized medicine also lets down the most "vulnerable" namely because the government is in charge and there is a huge lack of professionalism within the ranks. The elderly in socialized medicine are NOT given treatment options that countries like the US would offer. There is some sort of cutoff age for what they (the government or whoever makes these choices) deem it is appropriate to treat...my father was NEVER given the option of chemo/radio/transplant nothing and guess what? he died due to lack of care all the way from the nursing staff to OMG there were no doctors on call for the whole weekend! no oncologists! *that* is what socialized medicine is in many cases. Go check the what the haill happened to AMSA thread.
Originally posted by djipopo
to the OP:
dude you're already paying for the 'smoker who sits on his couch and eats cheetos', his health care costs are already built into your insurance premiums.
get a life and find a heart, you have no business trying being a physician.
Originally posted by medic8m
By the title of this thread I thought I would get some real information about the AMSA. Could anyone give me any facts besides "they are a bunch of commies"? I really want to learn more.
Originally posted by Kosmo
This is an honest question: Why would you assume that the original poster doesn't know this? And how is this an argument against his position?
PS: It always tickles me when people say things like 'find a heart' within the context of such a vitriolic comment.
Originally posted by Jeff698
Even though I rarely agree with the opinions expressed by AMSA, I'd still recommend joining them and finding out for yourself.
Originally posted by efex101
Yes this is in Spain and no their system is terrible. If you go to Spain and ask folks most that can afford it have their own private insurance. It can take months just to get an x-ray or any other lab work and the staff at the hospital is under the impression that the patients should be "thankful" that they are even getting seen for (this was actually something that was told to my family) they are receiving *free* healthcare so they should not ever complain. You really have to go there and see it with your own two eyes. The hospital was filthy, and patients were lined up in the hallways, the doctors were yelling yes yelling at family members to get out of their way, the nursing staff was eating and drinking coffee the whole time and taking hundreds of smoking breaks (almost every breathing person in Spain smokes constantly), it looked like something that you would find in a communist country, I was literally in shock! I spoke to one of the oncologists there and he told me that this hospital (mind you it serves Madrid) did not have oncologists on call on the weekends WTF? so if any cancer patient like my father came in during Friday he was SOL until Monday. During the whole weekend stay not ONCE did a physician come and see my father so he contracted pneumonia (sp?) and passed away on Monday. I grew up there but my parents had private insurance for me so I was never exposed to the inefficacy of this system although I had heard Spaniards complain about it. You cannot sue so no matter what they do or do not do it is pointless to complain, so many Spaniards just think this is the norm. This oncologist I spoke with told me that my father was never given the option of any chemo/radio hell they did not even give him any painkillers or anything, because well he was older (he was only in his 60's) and there was no point really in prolonging the "suffering". I was just in utter shock and will never ever set foot again in a government run hospital there. I am sure that some systems work but not the ones that I have been exposed to. Also if you guys remember what happened in France last summer...100's of people died during the heat wave and a lot of this deaths were due to a lack of healthcare personnel. Everyone in Europe takes vacation for at least a full month and they all go during July/August so the docs/nurses/etc.. were all on vacation helllooooo??? I tell you to many of the physicians that I spoke with and saw this was like being a plumber just a regular 9-5 job and that is it.
Originally posted by JumpShot
Despite the idealistic rhetoric and admirable goals touted by socialized medicines proponents it just doesn't work. Government just can not do as good a job as the private sector. I've heard hundreds of stories of poor health care from socialized systems. I've yet to hear an experience where socialized medicine worked better than a private medical system where the patient was insured. Almost invariably the proponents of socialized care must cite the uninsured when arguing their case because, if you are insured, the private system works much better. If we can figure out how to provide a minimum of insurance to everyone, then we will have solution that actually works for everybody rather than one that only sort of works.
The real danger with socialized medicine, however, extends way beyond the inefficiencies and inherent ineptness of a government beauracy. Peoples healthcare needs are directly related to their behaviour. Everyone will get sick sometime and there are genetic predispositions to certain problems. We will all get old and need help and kids get hurt just being kids (skinned knees and the occasional broken arm are part of their job description). But while bumps, bruises, and aging are just life, many people choose to do things that increase their likihood of needing healthcare much beyond that baseline. This is why smokers, race-car drivers, rodeo cowboys and others all have higher insurance premiums. And it makes sense that they should. (Will they pay their "fair share"? Maybe not but at least there will be some accountability for their choices.)
Socialized medicine has no method to selectively charge "higher premiums". Everybody ends up paying equally regardless of their choices and behaviour. Herein lies the danger. Because I am now paying just as much as some else for the results of their choices, I now have a vested in what those choices are. And because there is vested interest government now has a basis for regulating more and more of peoples lives. More laws and litigation follow. (The government lawsuits against the tobacco industry were largely based on the fact that government medicare/medicaid had to pay for the effects of smoking.)
We don't need more regulation in our personal lives. I will leave the extreme extension of the argument against regulation to those who believe in black helicopter theories. I will simply ask if anyone on this forum would support a law the mandated the use of a condom or banned sex acts that with higher risks of disease transmission? I would expect the answer to be "no". The Texas sodomy law was overturned because the nine wise heads reasoned that the government had no vested interest in what took place in the bedroom of consenting adults. With socialize medicine, this argument could be turned the other way if the court determined that that behaviour posed a health risk to either of the parties (remember the government is paying the tab).
The thing is, I want to be responsible for my OWN actions and would like others to take responsibility for theirs. Socialized medicine removes accountability and encourages government to regulate to try to get it back. Let's insure the uninsured with some sort of minimal coverage and lets help charitable organizations (Shrinners, MDA, Make a Wish, and many others). But let's keep the government out of it as much as possible because the private sector just works better. There is just too much for us to loose as a society and nation.
Originally posted by Panda Bear
Apparently, socialized medicine is great as long as you're not sick. In other words, since most people rarely go to the doctor or the hospital, they take comfort in the illusion of having access to high quality health care.
Originally posted by jdg222
I often hear reports that the US has a higher infant mortality rate and shorter life expectancy than many other first world countries (including countries with Universal Health care). What is everyone's take on this? I am still undecided on what healthcare delivery system we should have, and am interested in hearing opinions on why our system fares poorly by those standards (infant mortality and life expectancy).
Furthermore, because I have a strong conscience, I tend to lean left on many of these issues, but it is very refreshing to read right-leaning posts such as the one below where the argument is more than just "It's my money! Don't take it Don't touch 'the precious' bank account!" The whole idea of capitalism is actually very idealistic in its own right; just consider the idea-I can help other people most by being as greedy as possible. Imagine what a great society we would live in if that worked perfectly!
Originally posted by OzFan321
Just remember that your vote does count (to an extent) and that you should prioritize your values.
Originally posted by Fermata
That's rich.
Exactly how important do you think your vote really is?
Originally posted by jdg222
Furthermore, because I have a strong conscience, I tend to lean left on many of these issues,
Originally posted by funkless
I don't mean to jump your case, and, personally, I LOATHE insurance companies and support tort reform. However, your message seems awfully short-sighted and solipsistic.
Yes, your vote does count. THINK before you vote.
--Funkless