The Line Between Pass and Fail

[Dedikated2liftn]

After seeing all these threads about people having to repeat years, I've been left with a few questions: foremost, how badly to you have to screw up a test not to pass (I know this is different among schools, but base the answer off your own expereinces)?? For each subject (i.e. biochem, anatomy) at your school, are you only given one test or is your grade a combination of many tests? If it's the latter, what if you pass all but one of your subjest specific tests..do you have to retake the entire course (or even year) over? Finally, I've always considered myself a pretty solid student (3.9 GPA undergrad) and would assume, at this level, that I'm in similar company; consequently, how often do people have to repeat years?

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[nogolfinsnow]

I can only imagine that for 125 schools there are probably about 125 answers, but I would venture that the vast majority of people at all schools pass first and second year. It's unfortunate that some do fail, but if you have 100-200 people in a class, it's very conceivable that a few of them will hit some hard patches during the year. My school is systems based, and many of our units had only 1 test (except the 1st couple units) so if you failed the test you probably failed the unit. I think we had 2 or 3 people in our class of 150 who were repeating 1st year, I have no idea if anyone from our class will have to repeat. Overall, I would say failing/having to repeat is rare, but is much more likely to draw posts on SDN than passing is

 

[Noeljan]

After seeing all these threads about people having to repeat years, I've been left with a few questions: foremost, how badly to you have to screw up a test not to pass (I know this is different among schools, but base the answer off your own expereinces)?? For each subject (i.e. biochem, anatomy) at your school, are you only given one test or is your grade a combination of many tests? If it's the latter, what if you pass all but one of your subjest specific tests..do you have to retake the entire course (or even year) over? Finally, I've always considered myself a pretty solid student (3.9 GPA undergrad) and would assume, at this level, that I'm in similar company; consequently, how often do people have to repeat years?

first just take a deep breath....
As long as you work hard and find a way to study that works for you, you should be fine. I was very scared last year this time by posts on SDN, upperclass students, etc. Maybe people need a little fear to work hard, who knows. I know I do🙂 I will say that med school was nowhere near as impossible as people made it seem. Heck besides the volume, it's pretty easy and straight forward. I know I am lucky in that I go to a school which has many exams 1st year (although at times allll those exams seemed like too much🙂. With all the exams we have time goes by really fast, and you can always improve if you need to on the next exam. Usually profs will help you out if you are having a hard time, or if you are even having an easy time and just want to clarify/know more. Don't go into medical school thinking you cannot do it, because you can!!!! To answer your question more specifically though (bc I know no matter what people tell you, you still want to know🙂 I think at my school if you fail one test in a course but are passing all others you may get a retake of that test or remediation of that portion. I think you can fail one total course and remediate in summer, but I think if it is 2 total courses you fail (I can be wrong about this) I think you may be asked to repeat the year (and yes the entire year even things you passed).
good luck and think you can do it and you will!!!

 

[entericoated]

Amen, Noeljan!

 

[Law2Doc]

I can only imagine that for 125 schools there are probably about 125 answers,

Agree with the above clause. There isn't a single answer for you. I've heard of schools where as many as 10-15% of folks fail a course, but most get to remedy this with a make up test or retaking a course over the summer after first year. A smaller percentage, perhaps a couple of people each year, fail multiple courses and have to repeat the year. At most schools, you will see a couple of familiar faces restarting first year when you are a second year. Not everyone takes to med school like a fish to water. Learning how to study effectively, and putting in the time tend to keep most people afloat. But folks who coasted in college and expect to do the same in med school sometimes get a rude awakening. The grades you got prior to med school are meaningless now. All those folks in college who got C's and made you look so good by comparison have been weeded out by the admissions process. You're playing at a whole new level now.

 

[GreenShirt]

Most medical students want to graduate as many students as possible and will go to lengths to make it so. Occasionally people get held back if it's in their best interest. School policy will vary greatly from allowing people to repeat a test to requiring a repeat of the year. My class just got their Renal final grades today and by raw score I think about 20-30 people were failing the course so the school stepped in and curved the final grade by 7 points (in the past magic "participation points" have appeared under similar circumstances). So you can see the mentality is to pass rather than to weed.

As long as you stay balanced (school, friends, family, exercise) and stay on top of your work, you shouldn't have problems. It's when people get burnt out, slack off, or have family/personal problems that you begin to slide into the failing zone.

 

[OncoCaP]

After seeing all these threads about people having to repeat years, I've been left with a few questions: foremost, how badly to you have to screw up a test not to pass (I know this is different among schools, but base the answer off your own expereinces)?? For each subject (i.e. biochem, anatomy) at your school, are you only given one test or is your grade a combination of many tests? If it's the latter, what if you pass all but one of your subjest specific tests..do you have to retake the entire course (or even year) over? Finally, I've always considered myself a pretty solid student (3.9 GPA undergrad) and would assume, at this level, that I'm in similar company; consequently, how often do people have to repeat years?

If you're like most students in your class, you will never have worked so hard to be average (otherwise the average wouldn't be the average, after all). You probably won't be AOA (top 10%?), but you probably won't fail either (bottom 5%?). You'll be somewhere in the pack, near the middle, most likely. It is a lot to learn but well worth it. Med school is very different from UG. It's more like you have certain things you need to learn and a national board exam (series) that you'll need to do well on to prove you learned those things; most UG programs just give you a grade for each class and you're done with that part, pretty much. I like the MCAT as an indicator of how difficult the tests are (varies, but it gives you an idea). The biggest adjustment for most students is going from the top 10% of their UG classes (otherwise you won't be here) to, say, the bottom 50% of their class or maybe the bottom 15% (but still passing). Someone has to be in the bottom 10%. Someone has to fail or they will make the classes harder. Even though their grades are fine and passing in nearly all cases, it's an adjustment for many students. Once people adjust to med school, it gets more challenging in the subsequent step. Most people feel challenged by the experience and figure out a way to make the most of the experience. If I had to guess, I would say that the Pass/Fail point is going to be somewhere similar to where it would be on the national boards (a person who failed a test probably would have failed that section on the board exam) or, in more competitive classes, there is going to be some single-digit percentage of people who will fail, otherwise the prof will think the test was too easy.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

I would take the '125 different answers' thing further in that individual departments within the same school can have different policies as well. My class began with 110, about 100 of us will graduate together. Eight will finish one year behind. For years 1 & 2 we might have 5 exam per course, cumulative, each one with an overall class avg of ~82%. Required 70% to pass a class, 75% overall in all courses to advance (along with passing the shelf exams for the handful of courses that used them). Fail one course = summer retake, fail two and repeat the year. I think a couple of courses required >55 or 60% on each individual exam/assignment.

Like you said, everybody in med school was a stellar student in undergrad. What separates the top 10% from the bottom 10% is work ethic, time management, and drive. If you're in it for the prestige, if you coasted through college and never learned how to study, and/or if your think you can play Wii for three weeks and cram like a demon pre-exam, you'll struggle. If you're not one of these people, you'll do fine.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Seeing you're going to Creighton, a school which I know a little bit about - I dated a girl that went there, it seems like it's pretty hard to fail there. You have to get just a 70% on the course exams. If you fail, then you have to take the NBME shelf exam for that subject and if I remember correctly, get a 70% on that to pass.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

just a 70%

When my wife underestimates the amount of work some honey-do project will actually take, she always says, "All you'd have to do is _________."

In her mind, it's that easy.

 

[spospo]

Seeing you're going to Creighton, a school which I know a little bit about - I dated a girl that went there, it seems like it's pretty hard to fail there. You have to get just a 70% on the course exams. If you fail, then you have to take the NBME shelf exam for that subject and if I remember correctly, get a 70% on that to pass.

i am currently a student at creighton, and this information is a little bit incorrect. you have more than just the exam determining your grade. you need a 70% overall in the class including quizzes, exams, and small groups. it varies from class to class how much weight each area receives. if you are a 65-69.5% at the end of the course, then you can take the NBME to try and get up to a passing grade. i am pretty sure that below a 65% you fail no matter what. don't quote me on that last one.

 

[ZagDoc]

When my wife underestimates the amount of work some honey-do project will actually take, she always says, "All you'd have to do is _________."

In her mind, it's that easy.

Same with my mother. First time I expressed joy at simply passing an exam in medical school I was met with a "well do you think you should have studied more?" Not her fault 🙂

 

[BigRedBeta]

i am currently a student at creighton, and this information is a little bit incorrect. you have more than just the exam determining your grade. you need a 70% overall in the class including quizzes, exams, and small groups. it varies from class to class how much weight each area receives. if you are a 65-69.5% at the end of the course, then you can take the NBME to try and get up to a passing grade. i am pretty sure that below a 65% you fail no matter what. don't quote me on that last one.

Yeah, it's been a while since we dated, so I wasn't exactly sure. I just know that after we compared grading schemes, we felt Creighton's way of doing it was better than the z-score method my school uses.

 

[Punkn]

For us, you have to get >=70% overall in a course to pass it. If you failed an exam or two along the way, but your average is still above 70%, then you don't have to retake anything. If you fail one course, you can remediate it during the summer. Fail more than one, and you have to repeat the year. I'm not sure what happens if you fail a second year course.

Note: IU is probably unique in that we have 8 or 9 campuses across the state where you can do years 1 and 2. So, the policies are probably different at the other campuses.

 

[Law2Doc]

You have to get just a 70% on the course exams.

Um, this is not a yardstick that is pegged to anything; see Mr Freeze's post above. You can have a class where everyone gets an A or a class where half of the class is near the 70% range. It all adjusts up or down based on how hard the test is. So "just a 70%" may be pitifully easy, totally impossible, or someplace in between. It's silly to downgrade the effort needed based on a number not really tied to anything firm. (Heck, I've had graduate courses where the class average was a 45% -- we all would kill to have gotten "just a 70%"). Your quote is reminiscent of the character in Spinal Tap that likes a particular amplifier because it "goes up to 11" instead of 10, so he can turn it up one notch higher if he needs something extra. It doesn't work that way. The top is still the top no matter how you number it, and failing is still failing no matter how low you number it. So if 70% is failing, it's an arbitrary distinction and you can bet the test is hard enough that some very smart people are going to be flirting with that arbitrary number.

 

[Ashers]

Um, this is not a yardstick that is pegged to anything; see Mr Freeze's post above. You can have a class where everyone gets an A or a class where half of the class is near the 70% range. It all adjusts up or down based on how hard the test is. So "just a 70%" may be pitifully easy, totally impossible, or someplace in between. It's silly to downgrade the effort needed based on a number not really tied to anything firm. (Heck, I've had graduate courses where the class average was a 45% -- we all would kill to have gotten "just a 70%"). Your quote is reminiscent of the character in Spinal Tap that likes a particular amplifier because it "goes up to 11" instead of 10, so he can turn it up one notch higher if he needs something extra. It doesn't work that way. The top is still the top no matter how you number it, and failing is still failing no matter how low you number it. So if 70% is failing, it's an arbitrary distinction and you can bet the test is hard enough that some very smart people are going to be flirting with that arbitrary number.

I love it that you just referenced Spinal Tap (and my favorite scene of it).

On that note, M1 year we had 1 class where no one low passed failed and a relatively few people passed -- the majority of the class high passed or honored. Then there were classes where some people did fail. I was never sure of numbers.

 

[Noeljan]

Most medical students want to graduate as many students as possible and will go to lengths to make it so. Occasionally people get held back if it's in their best interest. School policy will vary greatly from allowing people to repeat a test to requiring a repeat of the year. My class just got their Renal final grades today and by raw score I think about 20-30 people were failing the course so the school stepped in and curved the final grade by 7 points (in the past magic "participation points" have appeared under similar circumstances). So you can see the mentality is to pass rather than to weed.

As long as you stay balanced (school, friends, family, exercise) and stay on top of your work, you shouldn't have problems. It's when people get burnt out, slack off, or have family/personal problems that you begin to slide into the failing zone.

I totally agree with this. The medical schools want you to succeed. They are not trying to "get rid of you." In most cases, the school will do a lot to help you out if you need it. Just try and stay on top of things, and if you are having trouble early on see the dean, etc. Good luck

 

[Doctor J]

You have to get just a 70%...

Man, if I could 'just' get 70% correct on Step 1 I'd be golden.

 

[njbmd]

While the majority of people admitted to medical school DO pass, some do not. Some also wind up repeating years or failing out. Usually, this is because of one reason: Something (illness, partying, procrastination, depression) got in the way of the student being able to put in the time that it takes to master the material. Medical school is about ratcheting up your study skills to handle a large volume of material efficiently.

For some people, the task is overwhelming. These are usually folks who found undergraduate coursework easy and less challenging. Sometimes, folks slide through undergraduate being able to do the "last-minute cram" and do quite well in their studies. This technique doesn't work for medical school and certainly doesn't work for specialty in-training exams.

When trouble strikes in medical school, these very efficient former undergraduate "crammers" can find themselves in a "tail-spin" that perpetuates their troubles. The solution is to change what doesn't work for you but some people have a very difficult time seeking help and end up in a deep hole that they cannot climb out of.

Again, the majority of folks adjust to medical school, get through and do fine but not everyone has that experience. The key is making the adjustments that you need and moving forward.

 

[Law2Doc]

I totally agree with this. The medical schools want you to succeed. They are not trying to "get rid of you." In most cases, the school will do a lot to help you out if you need it. Just try and stay on top of things, and if you are having trouble early on see the dean, etc. Good luck

They aren't trying to get rid of you, but they also have a lot at stake in making sure you come out of the school qualified. So they give you second and third chances to get through. And don't usually throw you out. But they won't push you through if you haven't met their expectations, and won't revise policies to make sure everybody graduates on time. The changing of a curve to make more people pass, that GreenShirt described is not how a lot of schools would have handled it. Many schools would address the problem by making these folks retake the class over the summer, or take a make-up test. And if you had this kind of difficulty on multiple course exams, you could find yourself repeating the year.

 

[DocNickRiviera]

.

These are usually folks who found undergraduate coursework easy and less challenging. Sometimes, folks slide through undergraduate being able to do the "last-minute cram" and do quite well in their studies. This technique doesn't work for medical school and certainly doesn't work for specialty in-training exams.

I crammed my way through undergrad and quite easily crammed my way through med school too. I tell incoming apps that the methods that got them to the interview will likely get them through med school too, but the volume will be increased (cramming went from two hours to two nights, and I mean regular nights, not all-nighters). I know many of my classmates had the same experience as I did. My experience is that crammers will cram, neurotic people who needed to constantly study in undergrad will probably do the same in med school, and the vast majority will pass. Those who have trouble can come from either camp, but I don't think one or the other is more likely to fail.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Um, this is not a yardstick that is pegged to anything; see Mr Freeze's post above. You can have a class where everyone gets an A or a class where half of the class is near the 70% range. It all adjusts up or down based on how hard the test is. So "just a 70%" may be pitifully easy, totally impossible, or someplace in between. It's silly to downgrade the effort needed based on a number not really tied to anything firm. (Heck, I've had graduate courses where the class average was a 45% -- we all would kill to have gotten "just a 70%"). Your quote is reminiscent of the character in Spinal Tap that likes a particular amplifier because it "goes up to 11" instead of 10, so he can turn it up one notch higher if he needs something extra. It doesn't work that way. The top is still the top no matter how you number it, and failing is still failing no matter how low you number it. So if 70% is failing, it's an arbitrary distinction and you can bet the test is hard enough that some very smart people are going to be flirting with that arbitrary number.

Obviously what you've said is of course true. If I seemed overly dismissive it's because my school bases grades entirely on the class average and standard deviations, which is an even harder target to figure out. We've had exams where the class average was 89% and a standard deviation of 1.8% points - can you imagine the frustration when you find out that despite the fact you knew 85% of the material, you've failed the test? Or equally troublesome is the fact that your ability to pass or attain high pass/honors grades is entirely dependent on who happens to be your classmates - some years having notoriously low class averages across the board. Quite a number of people at my school who have had to repeat a year frequently make note of how much different the class behind them is compared to their original class (goes both ways - some join a less accomplished class, others join a high achieving group)

Having at least some number to consistently aim for, arbitrary as it may be, is something that can be very comforting.

 

[Law2Doc]

Having at least some number to consistently aim for, arbitrary as it may be, is something that can be very comforting.

I see no comfort here. It is something (a buoy) floating in the water -- maybe you can catch up to it, maybe you can't and that notion should give you no comfort at all. A 70% can be impossible to get, easy to get, or someplace in between, depending on the test, and perhaps any curving, scaling, discarding of questions etc. By contrast, under your system, if the mean is low (ie a 70), you are better off with your system of having to be one standard deviation from the mean to pass than to have to reach that 70% marker. You are better off just having to keep up with your classmates than having to keep up with a buoy that may potentially be set out of reach for everyone. I think the grass is always greener, but the two systems described here are going to be equally crummy for the person not keeping up with his classmates, and equally beneficial for the folks trouncing them. I doubt anybody slacks off under either system, and if they do so, it is at their own peril. you can absolutely fail either way.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Our school sets a percentage needed to pass for the class and sticks to it, no matter what the class averages. Everyone could get 100% and everyone could get 0%, in theory. The passing grade is usually set at 75%.

Tests are usually between 25-40 questions, so one or two incorrect answers can be a large difference in your grade and definitely the difference between passing or not.

 

[Blade28]

We've had exams where the class average was 89% and a standard deviation of 1.8% points - can you imagine the frustration when you find out that despite the fact you knew 85% of the material, you've failed the test?

But that's the basis of being graded on a normal curve. If you're falling more than two standard deviations below the mean, it doesn't matter what raw percentage of questions you're getting right.

Throughout undergrad the vast majority of my classes were graded based on curves. So while there were ridiculous tests where the mean was around 35-40% (stupid engineering!), in the end, what matters is how well you perform relative to your classmates.

The point of the curve is so that a certain proportion of students get As, Bs, Cs, etc. It's kind of silly for the majority of students to be able to get an A- or A in the class just because they passed some "magical," arbitrary number (e.g. 88%).

All the standardized tests you'll take from here on out - USMLE Steps 1, 2 CK and 3; yearly in-service residency exams; fellowship exams; Board exams - are curved based on your peers' performance.

 

[DickyV]

We've had exams where the class average was 89% and a standard deviation of 1.8% points - can you imagine the frustration when you find out that despite the fact you knew 85% of the material, you've failed the test?

Does this really happen? I've taken classes at two different medical schools (post-bac, then MD) and in both cases, the P/F cutoff was defined as the x SD below the mean or a minimum percentage grade.

 

[OncoCaP]

Does this really happen? I've taken classes at two different medical schools (post-bac, then MD) and in both cases, the P/F cutoff was defined as the x SD below the mean or a minimum percentage grade.

I have heard of one school where this is the case, but mostly with cutoffs for different passing grades ... not so much pass/fail (which is usually based on a fixed percentage or require being well more than a few percentage points off mean to fail). At my school they have fixed percentages for nearly all tests. There is only one test where the passing percentage was variable and required passing each section; they picked the passing point so that most people passed and the rest failed and need to retake it in the future to pass the course. I get the impression that med schools try to provide remedial opportunities to pass so that nearly all people pass eventually.

 

[nogolfinsnow]

Our grades are all based on SD from the class mean, however where the cutoffs occur for high pass/fail are determined by theme leaders (with guidelines based on z-score), so I'm not sure that a person with 80% would ever fail, even if the average was 90% with a small SD, but maybe they would. I'm going to try to never have to find out the answer to that question.

 

[Sartre79]

i am currently a student at creighton, and this information is a little bit incorrect. you have more than just the exam determining your grade. you need a 70% overall in the class including quizzes, exams, and small groups. it varies from class to class how much weight each area receives. if you are a 65-69.5% at the end of the course, then you can take the NBME to try and get up to a passing grade. i am pretty sure that below a 65% you fail no matter what. don't quote me on that last one.

I'm in Spospo's class as well, and she is a bit wrong. At Creighton, if you score b/t 65 to 69.5 you can retake the final...it isn't an official NBME shelf. If you still fail the class you remediate in the summer...or if you fail 2 classes in one semester you repeat the year.

 

[Flaxmoore]

At my school, a Pass is 69.5% to 79.49%. This is wholly independent of class performance, though they will usually delete questions the class as a whole did poorly on. It doesn't matter if the class average is a 70% or a 90%, 69.50% is Passing.

 

[spospo]

I'm in Spospo's class as well, and she is a bit wrong. At Creighton, if you score b/t 65 to 69.5 you can retake the final...it isn't an official NBME shelf. If you still fail the class you remediate in the summer...or if you fail 2 classes in one semester you repeat the year.

of course you have to point out my errors 😛 i kid. let's listen to him. i was kind of making stuff up based on rumors

 

[Sartre79]

of course you have to point out my errors 😛 i kid. let's listen to him. i was kind of making stuff up based on rumors

99% of the time I have no clue, but this I've heard from the administration (not that I am flunking etc.)...so I'm pretty sure it's accurate. Let just hope none of us have to be in this position 🙂

 

[The Angriest Bird]

1.
In my school, most subjects' grades are determined by 3 exams. Exceptions in MS1: embryology, genetics, endocrinology.

2.
For most MS1 classes, if I can hardcore-cram for the 3 days before the exam, I will pass. I played World of Warcraft at full speed (regular raiding 4-5 hours a day) and passed all courses. My grades are in 3rd quartile though.

3.
It's actually quite easy (easier than you think) to fail one exam. But in courses where 3 exams are given to determine your grade, failing all of them on average requires a lot of slacking, at least for me.

My school is among Top 25 medical school in US (I don't endorse ranking). For privacy reasons I can't tell you which one 🙂

 

[45408]

Um, this is not a yardstick that is pegged to anything; see Mr Freeze's post above. You can have a class where everyone gets an A or a class where half of the class is near the 70% range. It all adjusts up or down based on how hard the test is. So "just a 70%" may be pitifully easy, totally impossible, or someplace in between. It's silly to downgrade the effort needed based on a number not really tied to anything firm. (Heck, I've had graduate courses where the class average was a 45% -- we all would kill to have gotten "just a 70%"). Your quote is reminiscent of the character in Spinal Tap that likes a particular amplifier because it "goes up to 11" instead of 10, so he can turn it up one notch higher if he needs something extra. It doesn't work that way. The top is still the top no matter how you number it, and failing is still failing no matter how low you number it. So if 70% is failing, it's an arbitrary distinction and you can bet the test is hard enough that some very smart people are going to be flirting with that arbitrary number.

Wow, I didn't know that the Law2Doc watched movies and did other human activities!

 

[Hayden2102]

What's with this 70% to pass thing? At my school it's 50, and the average is usually below 70. Are you guys just treated rougher? Maybe they mark harder down here. Because we graduate with the same knowledge as you guys.

Strange

 

[Law2Doc]

Wow, I didn't know that the Law2Doc watched movies and did other human activities!

It's all about multitasking.🙂

 

[The Angriest Bird]

What's with this 70% to pass thing? At my school it's 50, and the average is usually below 70. Are you guys just treated rougher? Maybe they mark harder down here. Because we graduate with the same knowledge as you guys.

My school: MS1 = 75% passing. MS2 = 70% passing. It's a curve after all, but the faculty promised to only lower the cut-off.

Class average is consistently around 80%.

 

[Law2Doc]

What's with this 70% to pass thing? At my school it's 50, and the average is usually below 70. Are you guys just treated rougher? Maybe they mark harder down here. Because we graduate with the same knowledge as you guys.

Strange

There's a conversion rate, just like currency.
Again, the absolute number makes no difference. They could say passing is a 90 or a 20, and it could make no difference to the number of people who pass/fail if they gear the test/grading to provide the desired distribution around that point. So saying someplace is easier because you only need a 50 or a 70 to pass isn't good logic. you aren't taking the same tests, aren't being graded the same way. So what you are pegged to isn't fungible.

 

[Hayden2102]

There's a conversion rate, just like currency.
Again, the absolute number makes no difference. They could say passing is a 90 or a 20, and it could make no difference to the number of people who pass/fail if they gear the test/grading to provide the desired distribution around that point. So saying someplace is easier because you only need a 50 or a 70 to pass isn't good logic. you aren't taking the same tests, aren't being graded the same way. So what you are pegged to isn't fungible.

Well, obviously. I'm not stupid 😉

Down here there is no bell curve or moderation. It's just what you get right/wrong. If you guys are consistently getting more right answers than we are down here then either you're getting easier tests, or you're better students or whatever. That's what I was getting at. I didn't realise you had lots of bell curves.

 

[Blade28]

My school: MS1 = 75% passing. MS2 = 70% passing. It's a curve after all, but the faculty promised to only lower the cut-off.

Technically that's not a curve. A curve isn't preset before the test is given - it would be determined AFTER all the tests are graded and the results are in.

THEN, and only then, would the professor determine what the passing grade should be. Otherwise it's rather arbitrary, as alluded to above by Law2Doc.