The most important question

[lt1196]

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I feel ridiculous for never having asked this question. After all, it should be the cornerstone of my graduate search/ application/decision process. Please don't reply with hunches - misinformation here could be fatal.

Some graduate programs are much less competitive. Keep in mind that I am a person who has no interest in academia, but is mostly considering consulting and/or dealing with very practical humanish problems, so I must decide between master's or sticking it out for the ph.d., which I would only do for better salary. Sorry to desecrate the title, but a phd is not an end in itself. Don't you agree?

The difference in mean salary across the board is very significant between ms and phd. (the difference in salaries between men and women of the same degree is equally large).

But what is th difference in salaries between people who got the same degree at different schools? Who knows the answer to this question? This is what I want to know.
How can I find information for the success or failure of graduate alumni from a given school? 😕

Radford accepts a little less than half of the people that apply to their I/o program. From reviews of people online, it's a cozy, supportive atmosphere with profs all willing to help, their students are the priority, the campus is gorgeous and right by a river, like my campus. Students claim that it is not actually a 'party school' but it is purported/rumored to be. First of all can someone define party school? It probably has something to do with the academics sucking, which brings me back to my original question: How does the school you graduated from affect projected salary? I'm talking about WITHIN phd or masters, not between them.

Are there programs, like this one perhaps, that just aren't worth attending? I think I could flourish in that environment...

 

[wigflip]

First of all can someone define party school? It probably has something to do with the academics sucking

I'll bite: a "party school" is an institution with a reputation for undergrad drinking, sexuality, and debauchery. It may also have a high rate of sexual assault and drunk diving incidents. My friend's little sister attended one as an undergraduate. On her way to moving into the dorm, she and her family passed not one, not two, but three different apartments where the male residents were involved in an identical activity: installing a stripper pole. The nearby Campus Town Halloween bash is legendary and draws non-students from as far as at least 100 miles around. One year there was allegedly a guy running around the streets with a live chainsaw.

For graduate/professional students, a party school can mean several things:

1. The reputation of your program takes a hit, in part because laypeople don't understand the difference between undergrad, graduate, and professional education.

2. If you have to work as a teaching assistant as part of your program, it may be more trouble than it otherwise would because you will have more problems with student absenteeism, in-class intoxication, and apathy.

That said, within a college/uni, there can be vastly different reputations for various departments/programs.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm not sure how things are with I/O, as that field is fairly different from clinical/counseling/school (although I believe there are a few I/O members here who can feel free to chime in); with clinical, where you got your degree generally won't directly affect your salary in terms of, "oh, we see you went to school X instead of school Y, so your salary is $65k rather than $70k." However, the reputation of your program can significantly impact your ability to obtain an internship and, afterward, a job. Thus, going to a school with a poor reputation could lead to difficulty finding work, with individuals having to settle for either horrible private practice contracts, or sliding into a spot that is looking for a "PhD/PsyD/LCSW/LMFT" and is thus offering a lower salary.

As for party schools, keep in mind that the label is usually applied to the undergraduate college and students. There can often be significant disparities between the quality of education at the undergraduate and graduate levels, and thus a school which has a middle-of-the-road undergrad reputation might have a very strong grad program (and vice-versa).

 

[JeyRo]

As a slight tangent, and focusing on undergrad completely, I'd say there's important differences between "party schools" that relate to academics. Chico State in California has a long history of being a big-time party school and it's academics aren't highly regarded either. Reed College in Oregon also is notorious for it's party atmosphere but is widely considered to be one of the most intensely academic private colleges on the west coast.

 

[irish80122]

I will go ahead and post my $.02. I attended a clinical program that is always ranked quite highly (top third of programs), and I feel is widely respected in the field, but is at a major party school (the school was ranked the number 1 party school my first year). From what I have seen, it has affected me in a few ways.

1. As wigflip mentioned, people outside of the field view the school based upon the undergraduate reputation and do not realize that my program is easily ranked among the top third of clinical programs. I actually had several family members who would not tell friends where I was going to graduate school, instead just mentioning where I went to undergrad. I never understood that, but c'est la vie.

2. People in the field have consistently viewed my program positively. I have received many positive comments, and have been successful in obtaining an internship and job in large part to the program I am coming from, and the reputation of the faculty at my graduate program.

3. I am not sure if this is true just for my program, or beyond it, but it seems that there is a correlation between lower undergraduate reputation and more opportunities for graduate students. For instance, our graduate students not only teach their own undergraduate classes, but do so from their very first year. However, at my undergraduate institution, which was ranked much higher for undergrad, you were not allowed to teach a class without a PhD, which greatly limited the opportunities for graduate students to get teaching experience.

Overall, I am very happy with where I went to graduate school, and would do it again. Honestly, knowing what I know now, I would choose to go to the program I did over the graduate program at my undergraduate institution. I don't think that the "party school" reputation has affected me negatively in any significant way. I hope that helps some.

 

[wigflip]

The party school climate isn't always to easy to avoid. It may not be just a matter of "staying away" from the undergrad insanity--they bring it to you. For example, you may have to dodge shirtless guys running around with super-soakers on your way to class.*

And I think the party school thing is a gendered experience as well. If there is a group of guys drinking in Campus Town and holding up numbers to judge women as they walk by, they don't refrain from objectifying you just because you're a grad student on the way to a meeting.*

* Real examples.

 

[mewtoo]

I'll bite: a "party school" is an institution with a reputation for undergrad drinking, sexuality, and debauchery. It may also have a high rate of sexual assault and drunk diving incidents. My friend's little sister attended one as an undergraduate. On her way to moving into the dorm, she and her family passed not one, not two, but three different apartments where the male residents were involved in an identical activity: installing a stripper pole. The nearby Campus Town Halloween bash is legendary and draws non-students from as far as at least 100 miles around. One year there was allegedly a guy running around the streets with a live chainsaw.

For graduate/professional students, a party school can mean several things:

1. The reputation of your program takes a hit, in part because laypeople don't understand the difference between undergrad, graduate, and professional education.

2. If you have to work as a teaching assistant as part of your program, it may be more trouble than it otherwise would because you will have more problems with student absenteeism, in-class intoxication, and apathy.

That said, within a college/uni, there can be vastly different reputations for various departments/programs.

I actually know of someone who went to a party school (my school, actually 🙁 ) for her bachelors and got the job because the person that hired her said, "Well if you went to a school where most people don't finish because they are too busy getting drunk, you must be a hard worker!" Of course with a party school you have to keep in mind if drinking is allowed on campus. At my school it is not (everyone goes home to drink, I guess) and I've never encountered any "situations" as our school has really strict rules.If you are caught with any alcohol (even if your 21+) or illegal drugs even once your kicked out of the uni and (in my state at least) that means you cannot be admitted to any uni's or colleges for 3 years. It works as a pretty good deterrent. And this is coming from an undergrad, so I'm around these so called "party students" more than a grad student would.

Also, I wanted to note that I've seen other students and family members get their bachelors or masters at my (party) school and then go on to top programs in their field and teach at reputable universities.

 

[lt1196]

Thanks for the colorful and informative anecdotes and facts. I now know more about one of the two queries I had asked about, so now I don't feel so bad about the possible reputation of that school...especially if the profs are as nice and helpful as the students unanimously say they are. But most importantly, and thanks to the two of you who addressed this, is the difference in the actual degree from doctoral schools, all other things equal (opportunities to present, attention from advisor, fit, etc,). At this point I am considering only applying to mid-top tier schools (top 30), and if I miss those, Obtaining an ms while kicking ass so I can go back to a top 15 afterward. This might be an enormous waste of time, and that is pretty much my reason for beginning this thread.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

...considering consulting and/or dealing with very practical humanish problems, so I must decide between master's or sticking it out for the ph.d., which I would only do for better salary.

....At this point I am considering only applying to mid-top tier schools (top 30), and if I miss those, Obtaining an ms while kicking ass so I can go back to a top 15 afterward. This might be an enormous waste of time, and that is pretty much my reason for beginning this thread.

It may be helpful for you to take some time to read more about the different areas, types of programs, and related salaries for each path. In regard to a Top 20 program, there really isn't a true "ranking" for any specialty program, let alone all psych programs. There are programs that are good in certain areas, but not others. Things like the US News & World Report are not a good gauge for programs. It sounds like you have interests in multiple areas, so you should figure out the programs where you may be a good fit. Best of luck.

 

[Zebra F701]

They use a rigorous methodology, I'm sure. But seriously, most of the schools on this list have solid PhD programs in counseling and clinical. Don't worry about the "party" brand, it's meaningless in my opinion.

Princeton Review Top 20 Party Schools
http://www.thebestcolleges.org/2012-princeton-review-party-school-rankings/

1. Ohio University, Athens, Ohio
2. University of Georgia, Athens, Ga.
3. University of Mississippi, Oxford, Miss.
4. University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa
5. University of California Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, Calif.
6. West Virginia University, Morgantown, W. Va.
7. Penn State University, University Park, Pa.
8. Florida State University, Tallahassee, Fla.
9. University of Florida, Gainesville, Fla.
10. University of Texas, Austin, Texas
11. University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
12. Syracuse University, Syracuse, N.Y.
13. Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, La.
14. University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wis.
15. DePauw University, Greencastle, Ind.
16. Indiana University, Bloomington, Ind.
17. Arizona State University, Tempe, Ariz.
18. University of Maryland, College Park, Md.
19. University of Vermont, Burlington, Vt.
20. University of South Carolina, Columbia, S.C.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

They use a rigorous methodology, I'm sure. But seriously, most of the schools on this list have solid PhD programs in counseling and clinical. Don't worry about the "party" brand, it's meaningless in my opinion.

Princeton Review Top 20 Party Schools
http://www.thebestcolleges.org/2012-princeton-review-party-school-rankings/

1. Ohio University, Athens, Ohio
2. University of Georgia, Athens, Ga.
3. University of Mississippi, Oxford, Miss.
4. University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa
5. University of California Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, Calif.
6. West Virginia University, Morgantown, W. Va.
7. Penn State University, University Park, Pa.
8. Florida State University, Tallahassee, Fla.
9. University of Florida, Gainesville, Fla.
10. University of Texas, Austin, Texas
11. University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
12. Syracuse University, Syracuse, N.Y.
13. Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, La.
14. University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wis.
15. DePauw University, Greencastle, Ind.
16. Indiana University, Bloomington, Ind.
17. Arizona State University, Tempe, Ariz.
18. University of Maryland, College Park, Md.
19. University of Vermont, Burlington, Vt.
20. University of South Carolina, Columbia, S.C.

I agree; there's a smattering of solid psych programs in that list. As I mentioned above, the "party school" moniker is generally applied at the undergrad level, and the difference (particularly in state schools) between undergrad and grad program quality can be quite significant.

 

[Pragma]

I'll bite: a "party school" is an institution with a reputation for undergrad drinking, sexuality, and debauchery. It may also have a high rate of sexual assault and drunk diving incidents. My friend's little sister attended one as an undergraduate. On her way to moving into the dorm, she and her family passed not one, not two, but three different apartments where the male residents were involved in an identical activity: installing a stripper pole. The nearby Campus Town Halloween bash is legendary and draws non-students from as far as at least 100 miles around. One year there was allegedly a guy running around the streets with a live chainsaw.

Your post here just cracked me up. I also think I have been to that school for Halloween 😉