The Most Premedical Universities

[Arden_28]

ya the numbers for UCLA look legit

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

WOW. these numbers are insane. a quarter of hopkins undergrads are premeds?? a fifth of harvard?! excellent work OP

 

[efle]

Its applicants, so at the end of college. Yep those handful of crazy feeder schools have 1/5 to 1/4 of every class applying to Med schools! For Hopkins I'd bet you're in the minority NOT being premed as an incoming froshie

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'm really shocked by the high number in prestige schools, I would have thought they'd be more swayed by the siren call of $$ fields

 

[Lost in Translation]

I'm really shocked by the high number in prestige schools, I would have thought they'd be more swayed by the siren call of $$ fields

They probably think they'll all become cosmetic surgeons living in Beverly Hills.

 

[SOMBound13]

Creighton is small right, only about 4000 students? The only other schools that small that made the list (Rice and Case Western) have insane numbers of premeds per capita. Creighton probably has a solid amount like 8% or something but with a class size of 1000 that's not quite enough to qualify. All the liberal arts schools are similarly excluded

Yes, probably. I didn't realize that C's enrollment was so much smaller than Jesuit "siblings" SLU and LoyolaC. Creighton just gets touted as a "premed factory," with supposedly a lot of premed support, so I would have thought that it would have at least 10% of rising seniors applying.

 

[Lost in Translation]

"premed factory,"

That brings up a question for @efle: what are the numbers for Haverford? That's allegedly a big premed factory on the (b)East Coast.

 

[efle]

That brings up a question for @efle: what are the numbers for Haverford? That's allegedly a big premed factory on the (b)East Coast.

That's another case of too small to be reported by AAMC, they only graduate like 300 people per year so they wouldn't make the list unless they had 33%+ premed

 

[Krupke]

I'm really shocked by the high number in prestige schools, I would have thought they'd be more swayed by the siren call of $$ fields

You know how many people I've met at my (top 10) school who are straight up doing medicine because their parents said to? Some cultures value the prestige of a job over salary, and a lot of these people end up at top schools

 

[SOMBound13]

I'm really shocked by the high number in prestige schools, I would have thought they'd be more swayed by the siren call of $$ fields

You know how many people I've met at my (top 10) school who are straight up doing medicine because their parents said to? Some cultures value the prestige of a job over salary, and a lot of these people end up at top schools

I agree. There are some cultures that limit their children's undergrad major choices to Engineering, Comp Sci, STEM/premed, and very little else. The idea of pursuing Wall Street is foreign to them (no pun intended).

Furthermore, because their immigrant parents don't understand the premed to med school process, they assume that their child can only get into a "good" med school by first attending a top undergrad. They certainly do not understand that all the MD schools here are very good, and likely have no idea that their own respected physicians probably did not attend an ivy undergrad or big name med.

 

[Krupke]

I agree. There are some cultures that limit their children's undergrad major choices to Engineering, Comp Sci, STEM/premed, and very little else. The idea of pursuing Wall Street is foreign to them (no pun intended).

Furthermore, because their immigrant parents don't understand the premed to med school process, they assume that their child can only get into a "good" med school by first attending a top undergrad. They certainly do not understand that all the MD schools here are very good, and likely have no idea that their own respected physicians probably did not attend an ivy undergrad or big name med.

It's actually kind of sad. I have a friend who knows exactly what non-medical career she wants, but her physician parents told she needs to be a doctor and she is going to med school now.

 

[Lucca]

If you want surprising you should look at Harvard's class profile.


http://features.thecrimson.com/2014/senior-survey/

30% goes into consulting or finance and another 15% go into engineering and technology.

However nobody expects to stay in those fields 10 years following graduation (another measure of the survey) but many, many (~15%) expect to be working in health industries after 10 years. Is this the Harvard grads way of saying I will make my millions and then apply to medical school? I'm not sure but maybe.

However that means that 65% of Harvard's graduating class goes into 3 industries alone, all of them with incredibly high starting salaries. It's not surprising but at the same time it is surprising.

Another fun fact is that 75% of respondents whose families make over 250k chose to label themselves as upper middle class rather than upper class. ElOhEl.

 

[SOMBound13]

ya the numbers for UCLA look legit

I still wonder how all of those applicants get LORs, or at least very supportive LORs, from STEM professors that are likely hounded by several hundred applicants (plus hounded by all the STEM grad/vet/dental school applicants). Class-sizes are large at the top UCs, so that further complicates matters. My undergrad, a similarly-sized state school, only has about 150 MD applicants, so getting quality STEM prof LORs is not that hard as long as you're a strong student.

I can't help but think that a number of the LORs are just boilerplated, fill in the person's name, maybe mention an odd detail or two, and submit (while the prof moves on to #156 LOR). Sorry to sound cynical, but can you imagine this scenario from the profs' point of view.

 

[SOMBound13]

However nobody expects to stay in those fields 10 years following graduation (another measure of the survey) but many, many (~15%) expect to be working in health industries after 10 years. Is this the Harvard grads way of saying I will make my millions and then apply to medical school? I'm not sure but maybe.

As much as I look forward to becoming a physician, there's no friggin' way I'd be going thru all of this now, if I already had millions stashed away from a previous career. I can be as altruistic as the next guy, but I would rather start a foundation and help others that way. My parents have a very close, wealthy friend who was a financial supporter (thru his family's foundation) for Mother Teresa. One time while visiting her in India, she took him on a tour. Overwhelmed at all that the sisters do at their facilities, he collapsed down in a chair next to her and said, "Mother, I could never do all that you do." Mother Teresa patted his hand, looked him in the eye, and replied, "We could never do what we do without you doing what you do." ( A nice thought on this Thanksgiving Day. )

 

[Lucca]

I still wonder how all of those applicants get LORs, or at least very supportive LORs, from STEM professors that are likely hounded by several hundred applicants (plus hounded by all the STEM grad/vet/dental school applicants). Class-sizes are large at the top UCs, so that further complicates matters. My undergrad, a similarly-sized state school, only has about 150 MD applicants, so getting quality STEM prof LORs is not that hard as long as you're a strong student.

I can't help but think that a number of the LORs are just boilerplated, fill in the person's name, maybe mention an odd detail or two, and submit (while the prof moves on to #156 LOR). Sorry to sound cynical, but can you imagine this scenario from the profs' point of view.

My school sends hundreds of premeds to medical school every year (a bit less than UcLA) but I don't think LORs are a problem for me. They have been painless and from people who I feel know me for the things they have been written for in the past. It all depends on how you carve out your college career. Working in a lab is one method but there are very small classes (even science ones) to take even at large universities. My neuroscience course this semester is 12 people. My history class is 11 and my sociology/literature seminar is ~20. My biochemistry class next semester will be around 20-25 students. You just have to pick the write professors and classes haha even though that usually means taking non-required classes

 

[Lucca]

As much as I look forward to becoming a physician, there's no friggin' way I'd be going thru all of this now, if I already had millions stashed away from a previous career. I can be as altruistic as the next guy, but I would rather start a foundation and help others that way. My parents have a very close, wealthy friend who was a financial supporter (thru his family's foundation) for Mother Teresa. One time while visiting her in India, she took him on a tour. Overwhelmed at all that the sisters do at their facilities, he collapsed down in a chair next to her and said, "Mother, I could never do all that you do." Mother Teresa patted his hand, looked him in the eye, and replied, "We could never do what we do without you doing what you do." ( A nice thought on this Thanksgiving Day. )

If I had millions I would only feel better about my current path. The only thing I feel I'm giving up by wanting to become a physician scientist is money and even though it's not particularly important to me I do occasionally fantasize about the dolce vita my finance/consulting friends will have.

 

[SOMBound13]

My school sends hundreds of premeds to medical school every year (a bit less than UcLA) but I don't think LORs are a problem for me. They have been painless and from people who I feel know me for the things they have been written for in the past. It all depends on how you carve out your college career. Working in a lab is one method but there are very small classes (even science ones) to take even at large universities. My neuroscience course this semester is 12 people. My history class is 11 and my sociology/literature seminar is ~20. My biochemistry class next semester will be around 20-25 students. You just have to pick the write professors and classes haha even though that usually means taking non-required classes

Yes, definitely if you're working in a prof's lab or taking upper division STEM courses with small class sizes, then profs are going to know you and the resulting LORs will be better. I guess I'm wondering if the non-STEM premeds who are just taking the premed prereqs (mostly lower division large classes) and maybe are doing outside medically-related ECs, have more trouble getting quality LORs from science profs at very large univs.

When we see qualified applicants from large univs not getting any II's or acceptances, when they've dotted the i's and crossed the t's, it makes me wonder if that one short-coming (LORs from profs who barely know them) is an issue.

It's just something I've wondered about when I see schools that have 400+ applicants. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the UCs write Committee Letters. If that's true, I can see why. It would be too labor-intensive and expensive, and probably not enough time to schedule everyone within a short timeframe.

 

[allanMED15]

Its applicants, so at the end of college. Yep those handful of crazy feeder schools have 1/5 to 1/4 of every class applying to Med schools! For Hopkins I'd bet you're in the minority NOT being premed as an incoming froshie

I can confirm this. Those who aren't pre med are the minority. Many of my friends started out as physics or bio majors planning to go to med school. They all either changed to writing or finance in the first year.

 

[ZedsDed]

I can't help but think that a number of the LORs are just boilerplated, fill in the person's name, maybe mention an odd detail or two, and submit (while the prof moves on to #156 LOR). Sorry to sound cynical, but can you imagine this scenario from the profs' point of view.

Pretty much, unless you do research with said professor.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Pretty much, unless you do research with said professor.

I mean these generic LORs are also a not so insignificant part of the reason why alot of applicants are underwhelmed by their results at the end of an app cycle.

Mimelim's post on LORs from a couple years ago is gold. Definitely recommend anybody to read it. I think AAMC on their ADCOM survey had LORs as the second most important factor in deciding an admission decision after the interview.

 

[Brokenbone]

i would be interested to know what percentage from each of those actually matriculate

 

[SOMBound13]

I think AAMC on their ADCOM survey had LORs as the second most important factor in deciding an admission decision after the interview.

Interesting. I thought LORs (or CLs) would be the more determining factor when deciding who to interview. Didn't think that they would hold that much weight post-interview. Some rubrics I've seen are like 30% MCAT/30% GPA /40% interview, which would suggest that LORs hold the most weight when handing out IIs. I guess it varies from school to school.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Interesting. I thought LORs (or CLs) would be the more determining factor when deciding who to interview. Didn't think that they would hold that much weight post-interview. Some rubrics I've seen are like 30% MCAT/30% GPA /40% interview, which would suggest that LORs hold the most weight when handing out IIs. I guess it varies from school to school.

I mean LORs in general are always going to be overlooked because we don't directly write them and hence we just tend to cast them off to the side. But yes, they do matter alot. There is a huge difference between a LOR that actually really helps someone and one that simply doesn't hurt you. The difference often is what separates the accepted borderline applicants from the borderline applicants who become re-applicants.

I have definitely heard of schools as a sidenote where LORs really aren't considered too much until after an interview btw. And for a number of those schools, those LORs will weigh significantly in a decision. Often times with LORs the issue isn't "they are a red flag because they are bad". Very few people write truly poor LORs of someone. The issue is they are simply not hurting you, which in itself can be detrimental.

 

[efle]

Another bump for fun facts about feeder schools...

This list overall contains 26,173 premeds. Out of a total of 49,480 applicants last year, that means these 87 universities produce 52.9% of medical applicants.

Now to look at US News rankings (all the schools are ranked)...

The current Top 10 produced 2,492 med apps or 5.0%
The current Top 20 produced 5,517 med apps or 11.1%
The current Top 30 produced 9,226 med apps or 18.6%
The current Top 40 produced 11,338 med apps or 22.9%
The current Top 50 produced 14,168 med apps or 28.6%
The current Top 100 produced 21,899 med apps or 44.3%

Crazy! I would not have guessed that a full tenth of apps are from top 20 students, or that more than a quarter of apps are from top 50 - does make sense with the SDN/MDApps crowd though.

 

[AirplaneFruit]

250k income a year is upper middle class especially if you live in NYC or California.

Upper class should mean rich enough to not work. If you're making 250k a year you're still a wage-slave with about the same political/economic/social power as someone making 100k or 60k a year.

 

[SOMBound13]

250k income a year is upper middle class especially if you live in NYC or California.

Upper class should mean rich enough to not work. If you're making 250k a year you're still a wage-slave with about the same political/economic/social power as someone making 100k or 60k a year.

While I agree that "upper class" can mean "rich enough not to work," (your money works for you), but at some point a high 6 figure income ceases to be "upper middle class," and becomes "lower upper class." For example, someone who earns $700k per year is not "rich enough not to work," but certainly should not have the words "middle class" anywhere in their descriptor.

 

[Sionican]

250k income a year is upper middle class especially if you live in NYC or California.

Upper class should mean rich enough to not work. If you're making 250k a year you're still a wage-slave with about the same political/economic/social power as someone making 100k or 60k a year.

some upper class like to work

 

[Nietzschelover]

Just saw this thread....@efle, please have a full report on the LACs on the desks of myself and @WingedOx by the end of the day. Great work so far, though.

Shocked by the data on Harvard. I would have been shocked if 25% identified as pre-med at beginning of frosh year, much less 25% of each graduating class. I would have assumed those numbers would be lower because of number of Harvard undergrads who go into government, law, humanities fields, and especially tech.

 

[terra330]

Another fun fact is that 75% of respondents whose families make over 250k chose to label themselves as upper middle class rather than upper class. ElOhEl.

I would probably agree with that.

 

[efle]

a full report on the LACs

I wish I could make this! Unfortunately since you need 50+ Asian or 100+ white applicants in a graduating class to make the list, no small schools had data available. For example a school like Amherst only graduates about 450 students each year, so they'd have to have some ridiculous rate in the 20+% range to appear at all.

Fun fact, the smallest school making the list was also one of the most premedically oriented, Rice at ~4000 students!

I would have been shocked if 25% identified as pre-med at beginning of frosh year, much less 25% of each graduating class.

At places with high weedout rates like Hopkins, the data suggests something like 3/4 freshman come in as premed. Absolutely insane

 

[Lucca]

I wish I could make this! Unfortunately since you need 50+ Asian or 100+ white applicants in a graduating class to make the list, no small schools had data available. For example a school like Amherst only graduates about 450 students each year, so they'd have to have some ridiculous rate in the 20+% range to appear at all.

Fun fact, the smallest school making the list was also one of the most premedically oriented, Rice at ~4000 students!


At places with high weedout rates like Hopkins, the data suggests something like 3/4 freshman come in as premed. Absolutely insane

Totally not surprised about Rice. I remember when I visited it felt like everyone was premed.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I wish I could make this! Unfortunately since you need 50+ Asian or 100+ white applicants in a graduating class to make the list, no small schools had data available. For example a school like Amherst only graduates about 450 students each year, so they'd have to have some ridiculous rate in the 20+% range to appear at all.

Fun fact, the smallest school making the list was also one of the most premedically oriented, Rice at ~4000 students!


At places with high weedout rates like Hopkins, the data suggests something like 3/4 freshman come in as premed. Absolutely insane

Not surprised by Hopkins, but I am surprised by Harvard.

 

[Lost in Translation]

Another fun fact is that 75% of respondents whose families make over 250k chose to label themselves as upper middle class rather than upper class. ElOhEl.

My family makes around that much. We call it the we-make-too-much-for-financial-aid-but-too-little-to-comfortably-afford-college-class. My family is certainly not upper class.

 

[ZedsDed]

My family makes around that much. We call it the we-make-too-much-for-financial-aid-but-too-little-to-comfortably-afford-college-class. My family is certainly not upper class.

Not to give you a hard time, but this would put you in the top 1% according to the census bureau

 

[GrapesofRath]

Not to give you a hard time, but this would put you in the top 1% according to the census bureau

Interestingly enough, amongst medical students family income while this is purely a guess on my part( I really have no inside info), I wouldnt be surprised if that income wasnt in the top 25 percent.

 

[efle]

Interestingly enough, amongst medical students family income while this is purely a guess on my part( I really have no inside info), I wouldnt be surprised if that income wasnt in the top 25 percent.

Is there any official number for % of med students with physician parent(s)?

 

[terra330]

Not to give you a hard time, but this would put you in the top 1% according to the census bureau

Last I checked, top 1% was somewhere in excess of $400k, and even that's technically for individual incomes.

 

[Krupke]

Last I checked, top 1% was somewhere in excess of $400k, and even that's technically for individual incomes.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html Yeah, it seems like 1% is around $400K.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Is there any official number for % of med students with physician parent(s)?

I've heard in the past the number 30- 35% thrown around by several doctors and residents themselves I know personally some of whom are involved in admissions process. However that's hardly some fail proof verifiable statistic. I would be surprised though if the number was significantly lower than that(ie <20%)

 

[terra330]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html Yeah, it seems like 1% is around $400K.

Looks like I was wrong about individual vs household income though. Nonetheless, while $250k household is enough to be very comfortable, I can get why people wouldn't consider it to be upper class (and I tend to agree)

I've heard in the past the number 30- 35% thrown around by several doctors and residents themselves I know personally some of whom are involved in admissions process. However that's hardly some fail proof verifiable statistic. I would be surprised though if the number was significantly lower than that(ie <20%)

Apparently 15% in Canadian schools: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC100877/

Can't find any hard numbers for the US... and that is a pretty old article.

 

[Lucca]

My family makes around that much. We call it the we-make-too-much-for-financial-aid-but-too-little-to-comfortably-afford-college-class. My family is certainly not upper class.

My family makes half that much and I consider us to be very wealthy. Very few but the upper class can afford to pay college straight from their bank accounts, that does not make affording tuition the bar for being in the upper class. If you can afford all of your living needs (shelter, food, clothing transportation) and have money left over to save and invest and buy luxury items (which we definitely do at half that amount, albeit in Texas) then you are upper class.

Id be interested in hearing why you and @terra330 disagree with me though. If you are talking about being rich but not rich enough to be in the plutocrat class then I understand but it's delusional to suggest that the political donor class is the exclusive upper class. I'd put them in the über rich tier.

Given that the median household income is 50k, I consider the vicinity around 50k to be middle class. Anything above 100k puts you in the upper middle class and anything above 200 puts you in the upper class in my book. Above 300 you are in rich town.

 

[terra330]

If you can afford all of your living needs (shelter, food, clothing transportation) and have money left over to save and invest and buy luxury items...

That's pretty much the definition of middle class in my book (unless your definition of "luxury items" means a golden toilet seats, lambos, etc.). These definitions are obviously subjective, but I would definitely consider a household income of $125k to be solidly middle class - not rich in any sense of the word. And for whatever it's worth, a dollar does tend to go farther in Texas than it does in say... California or NYC.

This is what Wikipedia describes as upper class:

Many politicians, heirs to fortunes, top business executives, CEOs, successful venture capitalists, those born into high society, and some celebrities may be considered members of this class. Some prominent and high-rung professionals may also be included if they attain great influence and wealth. The main distinguishing feature of this class, which is estimated to constitute roughly 1% of the population, is the source of income. While the vast majority of people and households derive their income from wages or salaries, those in the upper class derive their income from investments and capital gains.[4][6] Estimates for the size of this group commonly vary from 1% to 2%,[3] while some surveys have indicated that as many as 6% of Americans identify as "upper class." Sociologist Leonard Beeghley sees wealth as the only significant distinguishing feature of this class and, therefore, refers to this group simply as "the rich."[1]

A $250k household income doesn't really fit that description.

 

[ZedsDed]

Last I checked, top 1% was somewhere in excess of $400k, and even that's technically for individual incomes.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html Yeah, it seems like 1% is around $400K.

It varies by age.
"At the top of the economic ladder is the so-called "1 percent," or households that earn more than $250,000 annually"

 

[ZedsDed]

That's pretty much the definition of middle class in my book (unless your definition of "luxury items" means a golden toilet seats, lambos, etc.). These definitions are obviously subjective, but I would definitely consider a household income of $125k to be solidly middle class - not rich in any sense of the word. And for whatever it's worth, a dollar does tend to go farther in Texas than it does in say... California or NYC.

This is what Wikipedia describes as upper class:


A $250k household income doesn't really fit that description.

This is why I don't use terms like "upper class." Percentages are much easier to follow. Honestly I think QOL is a better metric than income anyway.

 

[raiderette]

Is there any official number for % of med students with physician parent(s)?

Over 30% have a doctorate but that includes all doctorates. Resource is AAMC but not at home computer to pull the study. It was the one on effect of SES in admissions.

 

[terra330]

It varies by age.
"At the top of the economic ladder is the so-called "1 percent," or households that earn more than $250,000 annually"

If you look at the paper that article sources, those values aren't for household incomes; it's for individual workers.

 

[ZedsDed]

If you look at the paper that article sources, those values aren't for household incomes; it's for individual workers.

The second quote was supposed to be a hyperlink; not sure what happened, but you can google it. It really doesn't matter though. Whether or not a family is in the top 1%, or 2%, or even 5% or 10% -- that is "wealthy" in my book.

 

[Lucca]

That's pretty much the definition of middle class in my book (unless your definition of "luxury items" means a golden toilet seats, lambos, etc.). These definitions are obviously subjective, but I would definitely consider a household income of $125k to be solidly middle class - not rich in any sense of the word. And for whatever it's worth, a dollar does tend to go farther in Texas than it does in say... California or NYC.

This is what Wikipedia describes as upper class:


A $250k household income doesn't really fit that description.

It's true our income in Texas is probably the equivalent of 250k in Manhattan in terms of real estate purchasing power, alas we don't have alot of the nice things that New Yorkers enjoy but we do have much more space.

The key is luxury items and the ability to save. The middle class is not able to do that. Once upon a time they could, but rarely is it the case that they can these days. By luxury items I mean like brand name clothing and a luxury vehicle like a BMW or an Audi (lower end) or a high-end mass market brand model and affording vacations or private secondary schooling. Easily, only the top quintile is capable of affording these luxuries

 

[getdown]

jesus is this what you do for fun???

 

[ZedsDed]

jesus is this what you do for fun???

Better than sex yo