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[ventstri]

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Is that true? You don't think Christie would get huge flak for his weight if he ran for president? There are many examples of the same type of bias with men. Appearance matters in our society, for better for for worse, regardless of gender.]



Actually, there's some evidence to suggest that greater body weight is an asset to men in politics, oddly enough. Check this out: http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v18/n4/full/oby2009492a.html

Nice counter. Data wins over speculation every time!

 

[cara susanna]

Men don't have to experience objectification, though. Their worth is beyond being viewed as a sexual object, whereas women are constantly being given the message that they are worthless if they are not attractive.

 

[wigflip]

Men don't have to experience objectification, though. Their worth is beyond being viewed as a sexual object, whereas women are constantly being given the message that they are worthless if they are not attractive.

I don't think Jon's online right now. Someone picked him up mercilessly.

 

[Jeina]

The data from the article supports my point that physical appearance matters. In this particular case, it appears to matter in a different direction than I would have anticipated, but it still matters.

It wasn't about "winning" for me anyway; I'm not making any specific claims of my own. I just remembered that article from some past research I did and thought you all might be interested in it since it seemed applicable to the situation. 🙂

 

[wigflip]

If you hit the television sitcom circuit, these days men are often portrayed as powerless and women as always right.

Can you give examples? I'm a sitcom hater, precisely because they seem to typically center on shoring up awful stereotypes about men, women, and heterosexual relationships. If I'm missing something that genuinely pushes in the other direction, I'd be interested to know. The only reasonable one I can think of is more of a soapy dramady than a sitcom: "Drop Dead Diva." Joss Whedon's comedic drama/action shows are great for gender and sexuality issues ("Buffy," Firefly," "Dollhouse"). But they're all finished/cancelled now. And I think a study came out recently indicating that female roles in television are actually at a low point right now relative to previous years/eras (can't find the link).


oops. lost the rest of JS's quote. Oh well.

This speaks to "dehumanization" and exploitation perhaps more than objectification, but it's worth a read and relates to recent sdn discussions of gender, mistreatment of women, and body size. If you download and read the full text article, note that the participant's description of the "rodeo" meets the legal definition of rape in many places.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/udbh/2006/00000027/00000001/art00002

 

[erg923]

Can you give examples? I'm a sitcom hater, precisely because they seem to typically center on shoring up awful stereotypes about men, women, and heterosexual relationships. If I'm missing something that genuinely pushes in the other direction, I'd be interested to know. The only reasonable one I can think of is more of a soapy dramady than a sitcom: "Drop Dead Diva." Joss Whedon's comedic drama/action shows are great for gender and sexuality issues ("Buffy," Firefly," "Dollhouse"). But they're all finished/cancelled now. And I think a study came out recently indicating that female roles in television are actually at a low point right now relative to previous years/eras (can't find the link).

I dont know nothin bout all that..but come on, How can you NOT think Modern Family is funny? I could really care less about what stereotypes it uses or doesn't. Funny is funny. Glee is also hilarious in parts...especially Britney, although it a little too zany for me most the time. Again...funny is funny. Period.

 

[cara susanna]

Last Man Standing is also a show about how men should put women back into their proper place.

Sorry, Jon, I don't have time to look up the specific study references right now. I'll get back to you about it later.

 

[wigflip]

I could really care less about what stereotypes it uses or doesn't. Funny is funny.

Well, if you're a guy, your life doesn't require that you care, unless you identify as feminist and/or are genuinely concerned about gender issues. You're not the one who gets penalized at the job interview or other work situation because people, even highly educated ones, have asinine, prejudiced, incorrect ideas about men's and women's alleged essential differences. Some of these ideas are constantly reinforced through endless repetition in mainstream media, including sitcoms.

And how anyone can argue that anything is objectively funny...wha?

Jon: I don't think I was arguing that drama/SF couldn't accommodate strong female characters, but thanks for the sitcom refs. Do consider however, the overall ratio of men to women, far fewer "character actresses" relative to character actors (older, fatter, non-leads), who is considered the star/lead of a given show, what the arc of the characters is like. If male characters are deemed "foolish," and that's the root of the show's humor, isn't that, in some sense reinforcing a sort of "boys will be boys" mentality? I'm not really sure that's so swell for women. Most of my married women friends report that their hubbies deploy that kind of feigned incompetence to attempt to get out of any number of housework/parenting activities.

As a side note, for those of you who like the Stieg Larsson trilogy, the full trailer for the American remake of "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" (Swedish title: "Men Who Hate Women") is out now. If you're familiar with the original film you'll note that they appear to have altered the leads' genders for the American version--Lisbeth is more feminine, Daniel Craig is butching up Blomkvist relative to Michael Nyqvist's original portrayal (which is actually what made the story work in the first place). Appears to be dumbed down in a number of ways for an American audience, but gender is a part of that equation. Arg.

 

[erg923]

Well, if you're a guy, your life doesn't require that you care, unless you identify as feminist and/or are genuinely concerned about gender issues. You're not the one who gets penalized at the job interview or other work situation because people, even highly educated ones, have asinine, prejudiced, incorrect ideas about men's and women's alleged essential differences. Some of these ideas are constantly reinforced through endless repetition in mainstream media, including sitcoms.

No, I care. I just happen to have the Lenny Bruce/George Carlin mentality that offensive/provocative things can be funny too. Will and Grace used homosexual sterotypes like crazy. Yea, I guess you can get all up and arms about how they are selling gays short or perputuating false/unhelpful sterotypes, but frankly, the show was funny. And if its a sitcom, thats all I care about. That's all that most people are looking for in a sitcom. Comedy. Not social justice/equality. Most people actually dont think as much as we (psychologists) do.

And, if you dont laugh at Christopher Walken's SNL cowbell sketch...yes, there is something wrong with you! 🙂

 

[wigflip]

No, I care. I just happen to have the Lenny Bruce/George Carlin mentality that offensive/provocative things can be funny too.

Actually, I agree. Since Carlin died Louis CK has become my favorite stand-up. He says some really ****ed up ****! But there's a POV in his comedy which makes things like sexism and racism visible and intelligible in new ways. That's why I (mostly) don't find him, (or Carlin) offensive. Stand-up has greater potential for subversion. But most sitcoms (certainly the gender/relationship ones) aren't pushing those types of boundaries, they're reinforcing them.

Will and Grace used homosexual sterotypes like crazy. Yea, I guess you can get all up and arms about how they are selling gays short and peputuating false or unhelpful sterotypes, but frankly, the show was funny. And if its a sitcom, thats all I care about. Thats all that most people are looking for in a sitcom. Comedy. Not social justiice/equality. Most people actually dont think as much as we (psychologists) do.

Never saw "Will and Grace," and I really don't know how the queer community felt about it. The last sitcom I tried was "Mike and Molly." It's got great ratings, so somebody must like it. But it was so patently offensive in its reinforcement of ugly stereotypes that I couldn't take it, even though my interest was academic, not for leisure. I'm not a fan of censorship, but I don't think that means that I have to give up a critical critique of mainstream media, or relinquish my wish for smarter, genuinely funny shows (which don't rely on tired stereotypes) to be picked up.

And, if you dont laugh at Christopher Walken's SNL cowbell sketch...yes, there is something wrong with you! 🙂

I'm not familiar with this, but I'll give it a youtube search, why not.😉

 

[erg923]

Dexter. . . that is a comedy, right? Guys, guys?

Mrs. erg thinks he's a hoot. And I like Dexter too. Although, watching shows like that also makes my pine for the nitty-gritty reality feel of shows like The Wire and the Sopranos. Dexter has more an over the top CSI, "yea right" kinda thing going on.

 

[wigflip]

Dexter. . . that is a comedy, right? Guys, guys?

It's categorized as a drama, though it certainly relies on "black humor."
You can see how a show is categorized by visiting the Academy of TV Arts and Sciences site and looking up past Emmy nominations.

 

[FadedC]

. I'm not a fan of censorship, but I don't think that means that I have to give up a critical critique of mainstream media, or relinquish my wish for smarter, genuinely funny shows (which don't rely on tired stereotypes) to be picked up.

Could always try 30 Rock. I personally think it's really funny regardless of gender roles, but it's also noteworthy that Tina Fey plays the well meaning out of shape, nerdy slob role that usually goes to guys.

 

[wigflip]

Could always try 30 Rock. I personally think it's really funny regardless of gender roles, but it's also noteworthy that Tina Fey plays the well meaning out of shape, nerdy slob role that usually goes to guys.

People say good things about that one. Haven't seen it except for this clip.
You know what they say about grad students...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXvv5sTqNa4

 

[Markro311]

People say good things about that one. Haven't seen it except for this clip.
You know what they say about grad students...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXvv5sTqNa4

You seem to be making accusations of sitcoms being socially unjust, discriminatory, etc.....yet you pretty much haven't seen any of them. Not the best person to make that argument.

 

[cara susanna]

Whereas I am a great person to criticize them because I am a TV junkie. 🙂

Don't get me wrong, I love offensive humor. I'm just more sensitive to portrayals of women because, well, I am one.

 

[wigflip]

You seem to be making accusations of sitcoms being socially unjust, discriminatory, etc.....yet you pretty much haven't seen any of them. Not the best person to make that argument.

Of course you're right--except you're also wrong. 🙂

I don't watch sitcoms, but I do watch a lot of other media and listen to/read about what creators say about their work. I study gender and sexuality, amongst other things. It's pretty easy to identify which discourses a given show engages. If you're media-savvy, you don't need to watch a whole season or even a whole episode of a sitcom (very different in format and potential than are dramas) to get the philosophy of the show. If you see a 15 second bumper for a show, or even a print ad, and the content is appalling, you really don't need to go further. The studio execs don't tell the folks at the editing bays to randomly pick any 15-30 second clip they like; the marketing department and/or show runner and producer are actually marketing shows--extracting bits that sum up what the show is about so viewers get it instantly. Even if the bumpers don't tell you the tale, usually watching the last 3 minutes of something while waiting for your own show to come on is sufficient.

Also, I think that some of the sitcoms based in workplace settings and featuring ensemble casts have more potential than do the "Men Are Like This, Women Are Like That" shows, or the shows about marriage/relationships.

 

[thepug]

Examples of sitcoms that portray men as bumbling and women as strong? Everybody Loves Raymond, Up All Night, Last Man Standing.

Strong women roles. Actually science fiction is great for this even going back in time a bit to shows like Star Trek (not great, but some progress; women in key roles). . .Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek Voyager, Fringe, Lost, Chuck Farscape, Stargate, all had/have strong female characters.

Don't forget all those ****y cop drama shows..."The Closer" anyone?

She's tough, but she cries...what is that? It's like trying to break the walls of gender stereotypes while affirming them at the same time...weird.

sorry to use the D word by the way.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

People say good things about that one. Haven't seen it except for this clip.
You know what they say about grad students...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXvv5sTqNa4

Another vote for 30 Rock, AND it's available streaming on Netflix, which is particularly nice when you don't actually have cable/a TV.

Edit: And to address the post below--I love Community as well, yep.

 

[KillerDiller]

I can't resist making a plug for "Community." It consistently does things I've never seen on television before, really breaking all the conventions set by the shows that came before it. Last season they aired a "clip show" full of clips that had never actually taken place on the series.

 

[cara susanna]

I LOVE Community. It has a lot of academia jokes, too. One of the characters just became a psych major so we'll be getting a lot more psych jokes. Though their portrayal of psych isn't very good. 🙁

 

[FadedC]

Community is my favorite show at the moment as well, although so far the new season hasn't really grabbed me. As for their portrayal of psych I kind of just imagine that the people at Greendale are not exactly the cream of the crop 🙂.