The quality of education

[pharmdpharmd]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I was per dieming in a hospital the other day and the assistant director asked one of the students to clean the break room tables. I was honestly disgusted. I wanted to tell him to say no and complain to the school, but I didn't because I didn't know if this was really a good advice, maybe it is just the norm with all these new schools. Do you see this kind of thing often?

 

[Lubeckd]

What... Yu clean tables in retail all the time... I took out the trash as well.

 

[rxlea]

Harrowing

 

[sandy1]

Really an awkward situation!! 🙄

 

[farmadiazepine]

are you serious? so rx students must be above cleaning tables right?

whether i work days or nights i take out the trash and clean the counter tops. its what clean people do. why would i leave it for someone else who didn't make the mess? or if i was asked to do it, why not? i think, this is awesome, i'm getting paid $60/hr to take out the trash

 

[rxlea]

I was per dieming in a hospital the other day and the assistant director asked one of the students to clean the break room tables. I was honestly disgusted. I wanted to tell him to say no and complain to the school, but I didn't because I didn't know if this was really a good advice, maybe it is just the norm with all these new schools. Do you see this kind of thing often?

One of the pharmacists I work with is OCD about cleaning out the fridge.

Students aren't above helping to keep the pharmacy clean....

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I was per dieming in a hospital the other day and the assistant director asked one of the students to clean the break room tables. I was honestly disgusted. I wanted to tell him to say no and complain to the school, but I didn't because I didn't know if this was really a good advice, maybe it is just the norm with all these new schools. Do you see this kind of thing often?

What does this have to do with new schools?😕

 

[eagles22]

I was per dieming in a hospital the other day and the assistant director asked one of the students to clean the break room tables. I was honestly disgusted. I wanted to tell him to say no and complain to the school, but I didn't because I didn't know if this was really a good advice, maybe it is just the norm with all these new schools. Do you see this kind of thing often?

Doing this is bogus in my opinion. Students are there to learn and are not to be used as free labor. This exercise has literally zero educational benefit. I'm sure most people won't mind taking out a bag of trash every once in a while, but to have the students do custodial work like that is insulting.

As for complaining, unfortunately it probably is a bad idea. Sometimes, you have to just go with the flow and not cause any trouble.

 

[297point1]

The admins in my office often ask me to put the new water jug on top of the bubbler. After reading this, I'm going to start saying "NO! I get paid to teach and be an administrator, not to be your water jug lackey."

Cleaning the break room table? Clearly, not the best use of a student's time...but would you have preferred that the AD had asked you instead?

 

[Sparda29]

If it was a paid pharmacy intern then it's alright. If it was a student there on rotations, then the assistant director was out of line.

 

[FlavyFlav]

Meh, it's not like a day on rotation is just completely full of learning and activities. There's plenty of downtime. Cleaning a table every once in awhile is not going to degrade your ability to learn at an institution. However, if that's all the student is doing, then it might be your place to offer some more educational tasks for the student to do instead. It doesn't have to be confrontational, just ask if it would be alright for the student to help you with IV to PO, Coumadin dosing, etc. after they're done with their task.

Our rotation coordinator told us before we started rotations to expect housekeeping tasks and that it's part of the "pharmacy experience". Basically, if a preceptor asks you to do something, do it. Tough poop if you don't like it. I have done the chores of the pharmacy on more than one occasion at multiple different pharmacies while on rotations, it's not a big deal.

 

[farmadiazepine]

when they tell you to clean the bathroom then thats out of line. cleaning the breakroom table is easy tho.

 

[DAW2]

would you rather have to clean the nasty ass microwave?

 

[doublehh03]

are you serious? so rx students must be above cleaning tables right?

whether i work days or nights i take out the trash and clean the counter tops. its what clean people do. why would i leave it for someone else who didn't make the mess? or if i was asked to do it, why not? i think, this is awesome, i'm getting paid $60/hr to take out the trash

If it's your mess, you're supposed to clean it. That applies to every individual. But was it that student's mess?? I'm sure that student isn't the only one using the break room table.

when they tell you to clean the bathroom then thats out of line. cleaning the breakroom table is easy tho.

That could be next LOL

would you rather have to clean the nasty ass microwave?

Maybe the OP didn't hear the entire conversation. Maybe that was included.

Meh, it's not like a day on rotation is just completely full of learning and activities. There's plenty of downtime. Cleaning a table every once in awhile is not going to degrade your ability to learn at an institution. However, if that's all the student is doing, then it might be your place to offer some more educational tasks for the student to do instead. It doesn't have to be confrontational, just ask if it would be alright for the student to help you with IV to PO, Coumadin dosing, etc. after they're done with their task.

Our rotation coordinator told us before we started rotations to expect housekeeping tasks and that it's part of the "pharmacy experience". Basically, if a preceptor asks you to do something, do it. Tough poop if you don't like it. I have done the chores of the pharmacy on more than one occasion at multiple different pharmacies while on rotations, it's not a big deal.

If a rotation has "plenty" of downtime, then something's wrong. Outside a slow retail rotation or some rotations like poison control centers, there shouldn't be "plenty" of downtime. Even then, you don't use those "downtime" to do housework unless that mess was yours to begin with.

On your 2nd point, are the preceptors doing those housekeeping tasks too? If they are, fine. But if the students are the only ones doing it, something's wrong.

 

[joetrisman]

I'd have no qualms cleaning the break room or nasty microwave. But cleaning the bathroom?

 

[pharmdpharmd]

That's a student on rotation btw, not a paid intern

 

[BrightLight]

Given how exploitive clerkships usually are, the student should be considered lucky that he was not asked to wash the director's car while wearing a speedo.

 

[FlavyFlav]

Given how exploitive clerkships usually are, the student should be considered lucky that he was not asked to wash the director's car while wearing a speedo.

If I could do this and be able to skip a day of work in return, I'd be asking how much wax and what color speedo, sir/ma'am?

 

[Pharmgrlnxdor]

In my former life in business, before pharmacy, I ran a company that sold upwards of 5 million in product a year. I was not above taking out the trash, washing a few dishes left in the company kitchen, or wiping up the break room table. I considered doing those things occasionally was just a part of being a team player. I also wanted those underneath me, which was everyone but the CEO, to see that I was willing to do these chores, just as I expected everyone else in the company to occasionally do these things too. Doing these tasks only takes a few minutes and is really not worth complaining about. I know I would really wonder about the flexibility and ego of a person (student) who had a problem with wiping down a table. Learning how to do whatever it takes to get the job done and keep the pharmacy running smoothly is in my experience a learning experience a number of my younger nonworking (never held a job before) classmates could sorely use.

 

[owlegrad]

Learning how to do whatever it takes to get the job done and keep the pharmacy running smoothly is in my experience a learning experience a number of my younger nonworking (never held a job before) classmates could sorely use.

I feel like I am betraying my fellow interns, but I have to agree. The entitlement attitude bugs me sometimes.

 

[Farcus]

In my former life in business, before pharmacy, I ran a company that sold upwards of 5 million in product a year. I was not above taking out the trash, washing a few dishes left in the company kitchen, or wiping up the break room table. I considered doing those things occasionally was just a part of being a team player. I also wanted those underneath me, which was everyone but the CEO, to see that I was willing to do these chores, just as I expected everyone else in the company to occasionally do these things too. Doing these tasks only takes a few minutes and is really not worth complaining about. I know I would really wonder about the flexibility and ego of a person (student) who had a problem with wiping down a table. Learning how to do whatever it takes to get the job done and keep the pharmacy running smoothly is in my experience a learning experience a number of my younger nonworking (never held a job before) classmates could sorely use.

This is a message written by someone who has matured.

 

[tootoo30]

So the student should pay tuition to clean tables, something is definitely wrong with that if it wasn't his/her mess. I would have a problem with that too because I do not need to learn how to wash tables

 

[BenJammin]

I was per dieming in a hospital the other day and the assistant director asked one of the students to clean the break room tables. I was honestly disgusted. I wanted to tell him to say no and complain to the school, but I didn't because I didn't know if this was really a good advice, maybe it is just the norm with all these new schools. Do you see this kind of thing often?

Clearly you have never worked a real job in your life. What planet are you on?!

 

[SHC1984]

In my former life in business, before pharmacy, I ran a company that sold upwards of 5 million in product a year. .

Why on earth are you in pharmacy if you had a job that was 10000000X better? 😕

This reminds me of a time when I was a student at Columbia I met a woman that was a hedge fund analyst...she left that job to go to medical school. All I can say is WTF? 😕

I would kill for a hedge fund analyst position but for a MD? hell no.

 

[eagles22]

In my former life in business, before pharmacy, I ran a company that sold upwards of 5 million in product a year. I was not above taking out the trash, washing a few dishes left in the company kitchen, or wiping up the break room table. I considered doing those things occasionally was just a part of being a team player. I also wanted those underneath me, which was everyone but the CEO, to see that I was willing to do these chores, just as I expected everyone else in the company to occasionally do these things too. Doing these tasks only takes a few minutes and is really not worth complaining about. I know I would really wonder about the flexibility and ego of a person (student) who had a problem with wiping down a table. Learning how to do whatever it takes to get the job done and keep the pharmacy running smoothly is in my experience a learning experience a number of my younger nonworking (never held a job before) classmates could sorely use.

The thing is, no one is saying that their above this kind of work. I think everyone here is ok with the occasional cleaning duties as long as they're being paid. The issue is, should students who are paying a ton of money to be there and learn be doing tasks that aren't educational? The student isn't a janitorial student, so this kind of stuff is clearly outside of the realm of education (assuming the mess wasn't the student's in the first place).

 

[Rockinacoustic]

So if i got to a public school do I have to clean more than a student who goes to a private school? They'd be paying too much to learn cleaning after all 😕

 

[Pharmgrlnxdor]

The job wasn't a million times better. It had a downside too. For instance,

1) I was at the top position in this company and would not be going any higher any time soon unless the CEO kicked the bucket.
2) If I wanted to move to a different company I would have had a hard time of it since the job and industry is a male dominated one and it had already taken me the better part of a decade paying my dues to get to the top of this company.
3) I could do the job with all my limbs tied behind my back. When I get really good at something I get bored...and boredom for me is the kiss of death. I don't know if this is a good quality or a bad one.
And most importantly, 4) it was in a dying field. I could read the handwriting on the wall during the last half decade as I watched vendors, customers, and competitors go out of business one by one. Having still a good 30 years of work in front of me (at the time) I did not want to find myself out of a job at a vulnerable time in my life when it might be too late to retrain for something different.

There was a time when people held one job for life, nowadays that is just not the case. I personally have interviewed hundreds of people over the years that were "remaking" themselves and had had very successful prior careers as electrical engineers, controllers, loan officers, etc.

But back to the original thread....being asked to wipe down a table whether you are employed and being paid or are on rotations is irrelevant in my opinion. It is faulty thinking to assume since you are paying tuition that you should only have to do X, Y, and Z. You as the student don't get to dictate what you do, just like I as the former VP of Operations who use to run a whole huge business also doesn't get to dictate what I do...I am the student now and it is my job to listen and learn. Yes, you are there to learn but occasionally you will be asked to do less interesting tasks, some of which might even seem beneath you. Get over yourself, wipe down the table during your valuable rotation time (it is after all a two minute job), and realize learning to pick your battles is a valuable skill.

 

[Sparda29]

I've met a lot of nice directors of pharmacy and some not so good directors of pharmacy. But, I gotta say, all the assistant directors I've met have been asshats.

 

[spacecowgirl]

note to students: get over yourselves.

Thank you.

 

[rxlea]

note to students: get over yourselves.

Thank you.

Word

 

[tlh908]

I know the president of a large manufacturing company. Whenever the company interviews professionals they ask if they are willing to sweep the factory floors. The engineer, marketing, accounting, sales, etc who says no is never offered a job. They want team players only, people who are willing to do what it takes to make the company successful. As a pic I do whatever it takes to make the pharmacy successful, there are no tech only jobs.
So the newbie student can get over themselves.

 

[Sparda29]

Don't all hospitals have these people who are called janitors/custodians/environmental services to do these things? We probably page the guys multiple times a day to take out our garbage, clean up any spills, clean the breakroom, etc.

 

[rph3664]

One of the pharmacists I work with is OCD about cleaning out the fridge.

While I wasn't OCD about it, when I worked in retail, we had a dorm fridge in the pharmacy and when I was there on Sundays (every 3rd), I would periodically bring in some bath towels and my hair dryer, and defrost the freezer. We'd do maybe 30 or 40, almost all of them refills, and for most of that time I didn't have a tech. We also cleaned the sinks and toilet (the pharmacy had a bathroom in it; I wouldn't have taken the job in the first place if it hadn't) when necessary.

 

[rph3664]

Don't all hospitals have these people who are called janitors/custodians/environmental services to do these things? We probably page the guys multiple times a day to take out our garbage, clean up any spills, clean the breakroom, etc.

We always cleared our own table. The housekeeping department was there to vacuum, mop, and empty the garbage.

 

[eagles22]

I know the president of a large manufacturing company. Whenever the company interviews professionals they ask if they are willing to sweep the factory floors. The engineer, marketing, accounting, sales, etc who says no is never offered a job. They want team players only, people who are willing to do what it takes to make the company successful. As a pic I do whatever it takes to make the pharmacy successful, there are no tech only jobs.
So the newbie student can get over themselves.

Again, in this situation, the person asked to clean up is not a paid employee. She/he is a student paying to learn. While this is a great point, you don't account for the fact that the student is paying for a service (pharmacy education) which doesn't include learning to scrub tables. None of you would clean your own table at a restaurant when paying for a service. How is this that much different?.

 

[spacecowgirl]

Who is the student paying? The site?

 

[bacillus1]

Who is the student paying? The site?

Sometimes, yes, depending on the school.

But I agree with above posters. The site is not paying the student, and therefore should not subject students to cleaning tables.

 

[SHC1984]

Who is the student paying? The site?

The student pays the school and the school POCKETS the money. The site does not get paid.

Don't get me started on how unfair it is for P4s to pay tuition. I understand P1 to P3 but P4? Complete rip off. School pockets the entire tuition 4th year. 🙄

 

[Old Timer]

I am very distressed by the narcissistic attitude that has infected our culture. There are two issues here:

1) Should an institution that agrees to take students and give them an educational experience ask them to perform menial labor? Is that an appropriate thing to do?

2) Once asked, should the student comply?

The second question is easy to answer. If this is a one time thing, you do it, keep your mouth shut and forget about it. If it happens over and over, you address it with your preceptor and include it in your site evaluation.

The answer to the first question is more complicated. Was it a one time, hey help me out kind of thing? Was it a direct order? Generally this is an APPE. There is nothing Advanced about cleaning the break room tables. I personally would not ask a 6th year to do that. I would not ask a 6th year to vacuum or take out the trash. They are not there as free menial labor. You are there to give them an education. In return you have an almost pharmacist to reduce your workload.

So while keeping in mind context is King and I generally agree students need to get over themselves and stop being so narcissistic, this is an inappropriate request.

 

[gsRx]

I had a problem at a rotation site with a "Tech" asking me to do menial work that involved making hundreds of folders that had to be shipped out to new pharmacy patients at the start of their care (specialty pharmacy). She would leave me notes on my desk, and come up to me asking me to make these folders when the Pharmacist, my preceptor, wasn't around.

I made a bunch of them to help her and the pharmacy out, but when it came to the point where she wanted 200+ folders (comprised of literally a dozens of things I would continually have to photocopy) by the end of the week it became an issue with me. I told her that I wasn't there to make folders, anything else involving the day to day tasks required for running the pharmacy was OK with me, including Tech work and the menial tasks a Pharmacist would have to do, but not secretarial work.

This caused a lot of drama since we argued in front of everyone, she told me she was going to tell my preceptor when he gets back and it will reflect on my grade. She even mentioned the fact that I was the first student to ever complain and somehow that reflects that there is something wrong with me. I was pulled into the back by the senior tech / guy who basically runs the show and he told me some pretty colorful things about her, and to pretty much ignore her.. he took me under his wing the rest of the time there and I learned a lot.. got an A and the tech never made eye contact with me again throughout the rest of rotation lol. I think she cried.

Bottom line is, a lot of students get taken advantage of, but they don't speak up. We aren't janitors or secretaries.

 

[owlegrad]

I think the bottom line there is how easy it is to get an a on rotation

 

[SHC1984]

NO the bottom line is...is the SITE hiring? Are they expanding?

The site I am at is expanding like crazy and will NEED pharmacists in the future. They have also hired pharmacist without any residency training which is very RARE now.

SO if someone ask me to clean a table HELL YEAH, I'll do it. It's either take 2 seconds and clean a table OR act like a douche bag and get blacklisted and NEVER get a job from them.

Your choice folks. I think it's pretty easy choice here.

 

[xiphoid2010]

My attitude is: who cares? It's only a month. As Mr. Miyagi making karate kid do wax on wax off, you just do it hope there it builds something. Like other said, get over yourselves. The fourth year flys by so fast, even if all you learned is that in real life no one is above chipping in to get the job done.

 

[owlegrad]

My attitude is: who cares? It's only a month. As Mr. Miyagi making karate kid do wax on wax off, you just do it hope there it builds something. Like other said, get over yourselves. The fourth year flys by so fast, even if all you learned is that in real life no one is above chipping in to get the job done.

Not a lesson everyone is willing to learn I would bet. 😉

 

[eagles22]

NO the bottom line is...is the SITE hiring? Are they expanding?

The site I am at is expanding like crazy and will NEED pharmacists in the future. They have also hired pharmacist without any residency training which is very RARE now.

SO if someone ask me to clean a table HELL YEAH, I'll do it. It's either take 2 seconds and clean a table OR act like a douche bag and get blacklisted and NEVER get a job from them.

Your choice folks. I think it's pretty easy choice here.

Again, no one is saying not to do it. Everyone is going to clean the table if asked since grade, job, etc are on the line. The issue here is that the student should never have been asked in the first place since he is not a paid employee.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Again, no one is saying not to do it. Everyone is going to clean the table if asked since grade, job, etc are on the line. The issue here is that the student should never have been asked in the first place since he is not a paid employee.

I agree with whoever said we need more context to know if the request was truly inappropriate. I can think of scenarios where it would be no big deal.

 

[MrsAppleseed]

I don't really see it too differently from a retail pharmacist saying, "hey, it's pretty slow, would you organize the back half of the alphabet and dust the shelves as you go?"

 

[gtpederson]

I don't really see it too differently from a retail pharmacist saying, "hey, it's pretty slow, would you organize the back half of the alphabet and dust the shelves as you go?"

That's something you tell the tech to do on a slow day. For a student that's hemorrhaging money to be there, something more along the lines of, "Hey, it's slow, look through these patients that qualify for MTM and see if there are any drug therapy problems." would be more appropriate, in my opinion.

That said, I suppose learning to obey without question is a good lesson to teach your students as well.

 

[rph3664]

I agree with whoever said we need more context to know if the request was truly inappropriate. I can think of scenarios where it would be no big deal.

And the main one would be that the student made the mess in the first place.

 

[Pojman]

SO if someone ask me to clean a table HELL YEAH, I'll do it. It's either take 2 seconds and clean a table OR act like a douche bag and get blacklisted and NEVER get a job from them.

For once - I believe that SHC is displaying the most wisdom that I have seen on this thread... Seriously..

One of the most important attributes of a successful employee is to show that they are a team player that is not worried about getting their hands dirty. Being a likable person is half the battle when it comes to landing a job in a team setting. Cleaning a break room with a cheerful attitude is a good way to show that you are willing to earn your bones instead of feeling entitled to them.