The Seduction of Medical Students

[ironmaiden]

Please, learn from my mistakes....

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, fall- the time of year when residents and programs put on a happy face and tell "little white lies" to lure in a new crop of interns....

"We never work over 80 hours"

"We are all good friends"

"Our attendings love to teach"

"People have a life outside of residency"

"All our graduates find great jobs and whatever fellowship they want"

"your wife will LOVE it here"

Be careful out there, kids. Look hard. Figure out if you can reallylive 900 miles from your family and friends (while being treated like a piece of property with no rights) before you go and rank a place. There is a lot of BS and sales pitch going on, and you are more of a commodity than you realize.

You can sit out a year. I think a lot of folks around here felt compelled to do something and ended up completely miserable in a program they did not belong in.

In some cases, you would be so much better off not matching than going far down your rank list. I, personally found myself thinking "well doing radiology in (BFE- away from everything I knew and loved) would be much better than taking time off." Those poor saps who didn't match and took the year off are some of the happiest people I know.

Good luck out there. Involve your sig other if you have one. Try to see behind the smoke and mirrors and figure out what will really work for you.

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[Mumpu]

That's an elaborate way to seduce med students. I usually just wear my lace white coat and hooker boots.

But yeah, don't rank places you don't want go to, and be realistic. Every group of people will have some interpersonal conflicts. Not every academic attending is a good teacher -- some are just "luminaries" kept around for prestige. You will be a slow and inefficient intern and may go over 80 in the first few months.

Going to a new program is like trading your old clunker for another used car -- you exchange known problems for as-yet undiscovered problems.

 

[3dtp]

That's an elaborate way to seduce med students. I usually just wear my lace white coat and hooker boots.

.
Going to a new program is like trading your old clunker for another used car -- you exchange known problems for as-yet undiscovered problems.

More like standing at the crossroads and negotiating your exchange with the walkin' dude: my soul for a crack at practicing medicine.

Didn't Al Franken write a book about residency? "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them"l ....no wait, that was about politicians wasn't it? Well, politicians program directors, program directors polititians I can never keep those two groups straight.😕

In all seriousness, folks, pay attention to ironmaiden and the white laced hooker. If there is even a glimmer of malignancy in a program run, swim, hike or bike in the opposite direction as fast as you can. A bad program will only expose you to the "recruiters" and you will never hear the real story. Lies abound this time of year.

There are good programs out there, but there are a lot of wolves in grandma's house, too. Be very, very careful. The career you save could be your own.

 

[f_w]

Everything that can be said about resident recruitment season has been said in the 'house of god'.
The disgruntled residents get farmed out to community rotations and night-float or they get intimidated into keeping their mouth shut. And yeah, the 'lunch with the residents' or the 'evening before' is not likely to give you a lot of real information.

 

[Llenroc]

You would almost have to do a rotation at a particular place to get a real sense of what the job is like.

 

[JackBauERfan]

That's an elaborate way to seduce med students. I usually just wear my lace white coat and hooker boots.

But yeah, don't rank places you don't want go to, and be realistic. Every group of people will have some interpersonal conflicts. Not every academic attending is a good teacher -- some are just "luminaries" kept around for prestige. You will be a slow and inefficient intern and may go over 80 in the first few months.

Going to a new program is like trading your old clunker for another used car -- you exchange known problems for as-yet undiscovered problems.

nice hooker boots 🙂 Never had that kind of recruitment haha.

 

[ronin8]

Please, learn from my mistakes....

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, fall- the time of year when residents and programs put on a happy face and tell "little white lies" to lure in a new crop of interns....

"We never work over 80 hours"

"We are all good friends"

"Our attendings love to teach"

"People have a life outside of residency"

"All our graduates find great jobs and whatever fellowship they want"

"your wife will LOVE it here"

Be careful out there, kids. Look hard. Figure out if you can reallylive 900 miles from your family and friends (while being treated like a piece of property with no rights) before you go and rank a place. There is a lot of BS and sales pitch going on, and you are more of a commodity than you realize.

You can sit out a year. I think a lot of folks around here felt compelled to do something and ended up completely miserable in a program they did not belong in.

In some cases, you would be so much better off not matching than going far down your rank list. I, personally found myself thinking "well doing radiology in (BFE- away from everything I knew and loved) would be much better than taking time off." Those poor saps who didn't match and took the year off are some of the happiest people I know.

Good luck out there. Involve your sig other if you have one. Try to see behind the smoke and mirrors and figure out what will really work for you.

what happened to you? is it possible to take a year off after starting an intern year?? wouldn't your chances be really bad the next time?

 

[jocg27]

Please, learn from my mistakes....


"We are all good friends"


"People have a life outside of residency"


"your wife will LOVE it here"

:

Aren't these ones, at least, very year and class dependent? They have no way of knowing if any given class will take to each other or not...Especially in a program that's not huge. So, I dunno, these may not always be smoke and mirrors sales pitches -- maybe it's true of their class and not yours?

 

[sophiejane]

So, how do you know when they are lying to you? Do you ask to talk to the grumpy sulking residents that they try to whisk you by before you see them?

How do you get the truth, other than doing a sub-I there?

 

[sonso]

So, how do you know when they are lying to you? Do you ask to talk to the grumpy sulking residents that they try to whisk you by before you see them?

How do you get the truth, other than doing a sub-I there?

If you are lucky perhaps you may know somebody at the program. I have a great friend who was a resident where I am now and I couldn't be happier with my program (especially when I talk to others).

If no friends at the program... try to talk to residents. After you leave the interview date with their phone numbers try to actually call them (plural). Ask them real questions...

If you have several residents who lie to you that's pretty damn bad.

Actually though, I'll be starting my PGY-2 at a different program (currently transitioinal year, next year-PM&R), I don't anticipate any problems since it's the program I wanted to go to, but we'll see...

 

[Pox in a box]

Shouldn't it be obvious that the ones who are most likely to "tell the truth" will not be the ones who interview you or take you to dinner the night before your interview day.

 

[sonso]

Shouldn't it be obvious that the ones who are most likely to "tell the truth" will not be the ones who interview you or take you to dinner the night before your interview day.

Great point. I guess you can try to contact the residents who are not present.

At any extent, you have to use your judgement when people give you odd, akward, or incomplete answers. I know it is extremely hard to do based on a 1 day visit, but you have to go with your gut.

Additonally, although you may have to take some information with a grain of salt, there is always this site (many of the specialty forums have a thread regarding the interview trail or you can inquire about programs) and scutwork. I only interviewed at (great) programs (in my opinion) that I was really interested in so it wasn't hard for me to find out a lot information beforehand.

If you are considering less well-known programs then you are going to have to do more homework.

I'm a transitional PGY-1 and I've already had 3 complete strangers contact me with questions. I have no problem talking to them (it may be that I don't have anything to hide) and I have no intention of going to the PD and saying that this applicant asked me x y z.

As stated many times before though, you shouldn't rank programs you don't want to be at. If you are not competative in your field of interest and decide to rank questionable programs because you really want to practice that specialty then you may just have to suffer... but realize what that really means and how unhappy you may be

 

[EctopicFetus]

I can say that i really like my fellow terns. we do hang out.. the only downside is being out of the department. that part is no fun!

 

[LHCF]

Time off is a GOOD thing. Even if you take a year to do research or do a transitional year to recharge your batteries.

 

[DRDARIA]

Just remember who you're asking and when you're asking makes a huge difference. For instance, if you ask me about my program at the end of a long month of Q4 call on a busy service, when I'm exhausted, I might tell you to stay away from medicine altogether. When I'm finishing an outpatient month, and I'm well-rested, I may tell you my program is the best thing since sliced bread. The truth is somewhere in the middle. In neither case would I be deliberately lying to you. Also, remember that if you're not talking to interns, it could be a warning sign, but more likely (especially at smaller programs) it's because interns are either on a hospital month where they're either working or sleeping, and if they are on an outpatient month, they may want to be able to take the opportunity to spend time with their family/friends, rather than at a dinner with strangers. I guess I'd be more concerned with larger programs that can't find interns to meet applicants.
Also, remember, the more senior residents may forget some of the pain of intern year, and so they gloss over the bad parts. In my opinion, the best people to ask are the second year residents, as I think they have the best perspective.

Finally remember that for most of us (there are exceptions, of course) this is the only residency we've done, so we don't REALLY have a basis for comparison-- just what we hear about other programs through the grapevine, or a little limited experience rotating somewhere.

I suspect that probably doesn't help too much. I guess I'd say is that if the people that do get recruited to come to the dinners say bad things, that is a really bad sign 🙂

Good luck to everyone entering the interviewing "circuit" this year.

 

[raspberry swirl]

when i was looking at undergraduate colleges, i was being recruited for cross country and track. at one school, i stayed with 3 girls who raved about the athletic program and the coach and they all seemed really happy. their input was part of the reason i chose to go there, DESPITE the fact that they were unable to give me as much $$ as other atheletic programs. when i got there, everyone was miserable and constantly bitched about the coach and the program. it was awful. i completed my freshman year and then quit the team, losing what little athletic scholarship i did have. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont lie to medical students! my college experience was completely ruined by 3 girls who "talked" up their program when in fact, they really hated it. when i was still on the team, and new recruits stayed with me, i was completely honest. i didnt care what the repurcussions were for me. i said what i liked, and i said what i didnt like and why, and i let my recruits figure it out from there. some chose to come, and some did not. but at least they could make an informed choice.

 

[cchoukal]

...be wary

 

[Mumpu]

Ask everyone "What are the bad things about the program."

At WashU last year, I was told "the program has no weaknesses." I didn't even rank the suckers.

 

[Paws]

I am really glad to be reading this thread, and thank you to everyone who has written here.

I am begining to dread next year and having to make some kind of decision about 1) what to go into and 2) where I can apply. Even as a new-ish third year I can already see which departments are strong and decent and which ones are really malignant. So far my classmates and I have seen one department that is just misery, for students and for residents I assume. And I don't mean ob, no offense to anyone who is in ob.

But that scares me, because I sort of am interested in that area but our department is just a horror. I also feel for people who are eager to come here and then suffer through for a few years. I think the whole process of clinical years is really depressing me, attendings who don't want to teach, the random subjectiveness of everything. I think I want to take a year off before I decide, because I am concerned about being an intern and is it just about 1000x worse than third year. I thought Raspberry's post was a very good one ... the weird politics of a place can really affect your life.

 

[pathman2006]

You would almost have to do a rotation at a particular place to get a real sense of what the job is like.

even then ther is pressure to "not give the med student a bad impression"

 

[pathman2006]

Ask everyone "What are the bad things about the program."

At WashU last year, I was told "the program has no weaknesses." I didn't even rank the suckers.

yes, any program that said "we have no weaknesses" got cut from my list.
Ironic, you are asked about your weaknesses but then the program has none--geat real!!

 

[deleted87716]

So, how do you know when they are lying to you? Do you ask to talk to the grumpy sulking residents that they try to whisk you by before you see them?

Funny story...when I was interviewing, one of the faculty members was showing me around the clinic and introducing me to the residents that were there that day. One guy came up, shook my hand, and said, "Run away as fast as you can. I'm not joking." I could tell he was serious. The faculty member shot him a dirty look, and whisked me away as fast as she could.

They later tried to blow it off by telling me that he was a "problem child," but nonetheless, I didn't rank that program.

(I was getting "bad vibes" in other areas as well, so it wasn't just that one guy...still, where there's smoke, there's fire.)

 

[Mumpu]

Rotations are not that helpful actually. I did residency and med school in the same program. My perspective is totally different as a resident than it was as a med student.

 

[EUA]

Also remember that people LOVE to complain and will do so about stupid insignificant things.

I agree with someone above me re: the only way to really find out is to do a rotation. Go drink with the residents at happy hour. You'll hear and see it all and be able to sniff out what negativity is bitter exaggeration or the real deal.