The single best Path fellowship is....

[LADoc00]

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Members don't see this ad.

A Harvard MBA.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

isn't that the truth. it's unfortunate that path residency doesn't teach enough about the business aspect of pathology. oh well, i guess that's what CP is for

 

[desmangt]

isn't that the truth. it's unfortunate that path residency doesn't teach enough about the business aspect of pathology. oh well, i guess that's what CP is for

Some programs offer a free (executive) MBA with your AP/CP training. I know that here in NYC, Columbia and Mt. Sinai both offer these programs. You can do it as night classes or after you finish the program. Columbia offers it through Columbia obviously, but Mt. Sinai offers it through Baruch (CUNY). NYU doesn't offer it though which really sucks.

 

[LADoc00]

Some programs offer a free (executive) MBA with your AP/CP training. I know that here in NYC, Columbia and Mt. Sinai both offer these programs. You can do it as night classes or after you finish the program. Columbia offers it through Columbia obviously, but Mt. Sinai offers it through Baruch (CUNY). NYU doesn't offer it though which really sucks.

FREE? A complete MBA or just a seminar class?

 

[yaah]

Yeah I would doubt it was free...if there is one area where I would never expect things to be given away it would be MBAs.

 

[LADoc00]

Yeah I would doubt it was free...if there is one area where I would never expect things to be given away it would be MBAs.

Considering a Columbia MBA (which is top 10) is probably worth between $60-75,000, I highly doubt it is free. But who knows, if it is that is BY FAR the best program in the nation in terms of fringe benefits.

 

[bananaface]

It's virtually free if your daddy pays for it.

 

[desmangt]

Considering a Columbia MBA (which is top 10) is probably worth between $60-75,000, I highly doubt it is free. But who knows, if it is that is BY FAR the best program in the nation in terms of fringe benefits.

Yep a complete MBA program, FREE!!! Check it out on Frieda.

 

[doctah jp]

Penn pathology allows you to take classes at Wharton, but I'm not sure if they'll sponsor a whole MBA...anyone know?

 

[LADoc00]

Yep a complete MBA program, FREE!!! Check it out on Frieda.

Check What the F-CK out at Freida?
http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/pgm/0,1238,3003511237,00.html

The phrase "MPH/MBA training" doesnt mean you get an MBA! It means some lazy ass CP faculty is going to give you a ******ed rendition of business statistics unfit for even the JC level!!!!

Unless these programs are brand spanking new, Im not buying this for a minute.

A free MBA with no GMAT, no application and no prerequistes just because you are a pathology resident?? Bull****. I call bull**** on this.

When the hell would you do an MBA? On your surg path rotation? Do you take time out? Someone here is serious trying to blow smoke up our collective a$$es but luckily you have me.

If Penn or Columbia or whoever said: okay do our pathology residency and get an MBA in an extra year or something, free of charge...walk on even! then there would be a STAMPEDE, a fookin ALL OUT STAMPEDE to go there. Everyone in the pathology community would know about this, it would be pure pandemonium.

Why would B-schools even give one rat's a$s about a pathology resident? Think of all the resources they would be devouting to you when they could be spent on an EMBA student who is a VP at Conaco Oil!! Youre a broke a$s no income earning, 5 years from a real job, P.O.M.S. to B-schools, trust me.

This whole thing doesnt make any sense. Someone who knows something elighten us. If this is true then Im doing a fellowship at Penn, no question, simply no question there.

 

[EvilTaz]

Penn is supporting residents who want to go to Wharton B-school for classes. They are NOT paying for the entire MBA. I wasn't too interested in getting more letters behind my name so I didn't pay attention, but I want to say that they are going to pay for half? I don't know if the offer extends to fellows.

Also, I disagree about business schools not being interested in pathologists or doctors in general. Medicine is big business, huge. Pathology departments push around a lot of money, and management is key to a good CP department.

 

[LADoc00]

Penn is supporting residents who want to go to Wharton B-school for classes. They are NOT paying for the entire MBA. I wasn't too interested in getting more letters behind my name so I didn't pay attention, but I want to say that they are going to pay for half? I don't know if the offer extends to fellows.

Also, I disagree about business schools not being interested in pathologists or doctors in general. Medicine is big business, huge. Pathology departments push around a lot of money, and management is key to a good CP department.

What does that mean?? 50% of an Wharton MBA is probably worth $150,000-200,000+ when you factor in pretax income and opportunity cost.

You would have be Corky-level of ******ation to pass this up if someone offered.

No where on the Penn site does it mention a partially funded Wharton MBA or even the chance of getting in. Wharton is insanely hard to get into mind you and requires a McKinsely-level of a management background to even prevent your app from being tossed into the ****can.

If Penn Path was handing out Wharton degrees, it would plastered all over their website, IN BOLD, BLINKING LIGHTS EVERYWHERE. Tykocinski would announce loudly at USCAP "We own you all, biotches" and he would be right. The price tag alone would be triple+ the resident salary.

Any Penn people please speak up before I launch an email to Tykocinski.

And in conclusion, YES medicine is big business, but as a path resident you are about as important to it as the janitors at Apple!

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Penn is supporting residents who want to go to Wharton B-school for classes. They are NOT paying for the entire MBA.

This is what I heard when I when I interviewed there. I don't think they pay for full tuition but they do support you somewhat to take classes at Wharton.

If people were so bent out of shape about getting an MBA, they should have done this in med school (or before med school). There are med schools in this country that offer MD/MBA dual degree programs just like how they offer MD/PhD and in some instances MD/JD programs. Why not do your MBA then? why wait until residency to seriously consider this option? Residency is not a place for one to suddenly think about getting an MBA.

Same goes for getting a PhD...if people were hell bent on getting a PhD after their name, then they should've done MD/PhD or grad school before med school. Residency is NOT the time to be getting a PhD. You're too busy to do it. There are only 24 hours in a given day. You gotta sleep and drink sometime. Seriously though, sure you got these residency/PhD programs. But they guarantee a PhD after x amount of years. This goes completely against how PhD programs are structured...to guarantee a PhD in 2-3 years regardless of work done or achievements is absurd.

 

[beary]

What does that mean?? 50% of an Wharton MBA is probably worth $150,000-200,000+ when you factor in pretax income and opportunity cost.

You would have be Corky-level of ******ation to pass this up if someone offered.

Well, I must be ******ed then. 😛

I have no interest in business or getting an MBA. Even if the classes were free for me, I have no desire to go sit in business classes and get an MBA. I can think of many other things I would rather be doing with my time.

 

[beary]

you got these residency/PhD programs. But they guarantee a PhD after x amount of years. This goes completely against how PhD programs are structured...to guarantee a PhD in 2-3 years regardless of work done or achievements is absurd.

Amen bro. I actually get sort of irritated reading about some of these "Ph.D." programs when I think about what I have just gone through to get my degree.

 

[quant]

Well, I must be ******ed then. 😛

I have no interest in business or getting an MBA. Even if the classes were free for me, I have no desire to go sit in business classes and get an MBA. I can think of many other things I would rather be doing with my time.

I completely agree with you beary....

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Amen bro. I actually get sort of irritated reading about some of these "Ph.D." programs when I think about what I have just gone through to get my degree.

Yeah, I mean given the way PhD "requirements" are structured now days (which is pretty haphazard and random), no such residency program has the right to guarantee a PhD in a set time frame. That's not how things are done these days. Once PhD requirements become standardized and publications is no longer the major deciding factor in how long a person takes to graduate, then these residency programs can start talking about offering these residency/PhD joint programs taht are awarded after a set number of years.

 

[LADoc00]

Well, I must be ******ed then. 😛

I have no interest in business or getting an MBA.

Even if the classes were free for me, I have no desire to go sit in business classes and get an MBA. I can think of many other things I would rather be doing with my time.

I feel for you, because medicine IS a business. Maybe you are planning to practice in the land of My Little Ponies, where everyone and everything is just taken of by Jesus.

What would this land look like?
Where everyone who is sick always gets better.
Where all pathologists get 100% of the amount they bill.
Where everyone has multiple jobs offers when they graduate and one "safety spot" always open in La Jolla.
Where the Scott Petersons just file for divorce.
Where being a radical religious person just means you pray real hard.
Where there are no bullies in school.

Sigh...how great that place is...Ill meet you there!

 

[yaah]

Ah, sweet.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You're right LADoc00, medicine IS a business. That's why there are so many doctors out there that are not earning as much as they could be.

There is a minimum a doctor can make...and for many doctors they can get by on that money. But imagine how much more money you could make if you really had the business angle...it's crazy!

 

[bananaface]

I live in the land of My Little Pony!

That's The UWSOP insignia on it's butt. pharmtard drew it.

 

[desmangt]

You're right LADoc00, medicine IS a business. That's why there are so many doctors out there that are not earning as much as they could be.

There is a minimum a doctor can make...and for many doctors they can get by on that money. But imagine how much more money you could make if you really had the business angle...it's crazy!

What's the difference if you get an MBA right after med school or residency? I think it makes more sense (application wise) to get it afterwards. I currently know a resident at Mt. Sinai getting their MBA/MPH as we speak. These programs have like 500+ spots a year. I think having a few doctors in the class seems like an excellent statistics enhancer to me. Its a lot of extra work though, and could be a distraction from academic activities.

 

[LADoc00]

Its basically pointless to argue medicine as a business with women.

If I can be slightly sexist ala the president of Harvard for a moment, women dont much care about the "hows" of the working world. They are generation raised by a generation married (or divorced) to the old school of guys who just took care of them. Business was and is a transparent abstract concept to most women. Something that occurs by itself with very little intervention.

Enter the 21st century, with 50% of med students women (under the influences of part biological programming, part maternal experience) hitting the job market all bright-eyed clutching a My Little Ponies doll (figuratively of course) and repeating the mantra "Im an MD, Im just gonna get taken care of" over and over.

Seriously, I cant tell you the percent of women in path that use it as some type of fallback plan, like if they get divorced they always have path or they plan to work part time or etc. etc. Im not crapping on this, my own mom is the same way, but sometimes they just dont realize we all arent like them.

Yes, this is a massive stereotype but within it are the hard truths. Its neither bad or good, it just is. Of course men can be like this too, just less common unless you are a basic science research type.

 

[bente]

What would this land look like?
Where everyone who is sick always gets better.
Where all pathologists get 100% of the amount they bill.

I think this is where he is referring to:
http://www.obrothermusic.com/preview.html
Big Rock Candy Mountain
RA | WAV | WMA
Performed by Harry Kirby McClintock (1928)

I'd hate business classes too, but you need someone helping you out. Our clinic made 12% more bling just by getting decent coders and preventing ****heads from scamming off with their superbills (diagnose and dash).

 

[deschutes]

Its basically pointless to argue medicine as a business with women.

If I can speak as a member of this much-maligned sector of the population... 🙂

Your input is always interesting.

Yes, business was and is a transparent abstract concept to me.
Heck, research was and is the same way.

It's like in grade school when people say "my dad is a businessman". What sort of business?? What exactly does he do?

I agree, medicine is a business. And learning the practical aspects of running a business is hard - I know that much. Partly why I didn't want to do family med. Partly why I am at this point comfortable with the idea of being salary-based.

Some people have a natural gift for running a business. Some people don't.
You will probably argue that the MBA would help some of those who don't, and I wouldn't disagree.

 

[bananaface]

Of course medicine is a business. But, for most physicians and other providers a MBA would constitute overeducation. Who wants to tack on that extra time? Even if one had to pay no tuition, time not working is pay and experience lost. There is no such thing as a free education.

Nobody ever made me think anyone else was going to take care of me.

ps - My boss has a house husband. hehe

 

[beary]

Of course medicine is a business. But, for most physicians and other providers a MBA would constitute overeducation. Who wants to tack on that extra time? Even if one had to pay no tuition, time not working is pay and experience lost. There is no such thing as a free education.

Very well said. I totally agree.

 

[LADoc00]

Of course medicine is a business. But, for most physicians and other providers a MBA would constitute overeducation. Who wants to tack on that extra time? Even if one had to pay no tuition, time not working is pay and experience lost. There is no such thing as a free education.

Nobody ever made me think anyone else was going to take care of me.

ps - My boss has a house husband. hehe

Of course everyone cant and shouldnt get an MBA, but I hope we can at least come to an agreement that health care is business and not a frolic through the world of My Little Ponies.

 

[bananaface]

Of course everyone cant and shouldnt get an MBA, but I hope we can at least come to an agreement that health care is business and not a frolic through the world of My Little Ponies.

We already agree that medicine is a business. But, keep in mind that some medical businesses are nonprofit. It's not all GI Joe either. 😛

 

[LADoc00]

We already agree that medicine is a business. But, keep in mind that some medical businesses are nonprofit. It's not all GI Joe either. 😛

GI Joe kicks ass!

In the first edition, Cobra Commander is in fact an evil dermatologist.

Naturally Im Storm Shadow (see the resemblance?)

Who wants to play Snake Eyes?

 

[bananaface]

I knew someone would have a nostalgic reaction.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

What's the difference if you get an MBA right after med school or residency? I think it makes more sense (application wise) to get it afterwards. I currently know a resident at Columbia and Mt. Sinai getting their MBA/MPH as we speak, for free!! These programs have like 500+ spots a year. I think having a few doctors in the class seems like an excellent statistics enhancer to me.

No difference. It's just a time issue. I just think medschool offers more flexibility (well except for 3rd year) and opportunities to get an MD/MBA. I envision that it would be more difficult to swing it during residency. But I guess if you really want that MBA, you'll do what it takes to get it regardless of whether you do it during med school or residency.

 

[bananaface]

Combined programs usually save you a chunk of time. Many schools have MBA programs designed for those who are working and going to school concurrently. So, all of their courses are taken in the late evenings.

 

[doctah jp]

Of course everyone cant and shouldnt get an MBA, but I hope we can at least come to an agreement that health care is business and not a frolic through the world of My Little Ponies.

Listen, I would never argue that medicine is not a business and agree that an MBA would increase your earning potential a great deal. BUT -- and this is gonna just enrage LaDoc00, I know -- for those who want to live in the world of My Little Ponies, academics can be a nice life. I know LaDoc00 -- NOT YOUR CONCEPTION OF A GOOD LIFE -- but to some, a nice life. Sure, politics, grants, and all that jazz can get tough...but so can all the bull**** in business. The tone of so many conversations on this forum has turned to the $$$ and job aspects of path, but for those who are going to a top program, who will do good work, and who have a conception of "enough" that rests in the 120-150k range, life is gonna be just sweet. And if that life is in the Land of Little Ponies, I'm happy to saddle up.

 

[bananaface]

My philosophy is to pick a career that you enjoy, regardless of the earning potential. I just happen to like something that pays decently. My dad dropped out of college one quarter short of getting his bachelor's because he decided he liked his job a school custodian and didn't want to do anything else. You can't buy happiness. It's your life. Don't let anyone push you in a direction you don't want to go in.

 

[El Duderino]

If I may chime in on the whole "MBA for an MD" issue, I can definitely see the merits of getting an MBA while in residency rather than while in med school. When you're through with med school (and perhaps internship or some other clinical/research experience), you have a better perspective on the healthcare industry. If you got your MBA in med school, chances are you'd just be cramming the amount of data needed to get your degree and three more capital letters behind your name. I'm sure it would look impressive, but at least to me, an MBA would be about actually learning stuff more than pure CV embellishment.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Listen, I would never argue that medicine is not a business and agree that an MBA would increase your earning potential a great deal. BUT -- and this is gonna just enrage LaDoc00, I know -- for those who want to live in the world of My Little Ponies, academics can be a nice life. I know LaDoc00 -- NOT YOUR CONCEPTION OF A GOOD LIFE -- but to some, a nice life. Sure, politics, grants, and all that jazz can get tough...but so can all the bull**** in business. The tone of so many conversations on this forum has turned to the $$$ and job aspects of path, but for those who are going to a top program, who will do good work, and who have a conception of "enough" that rests in the 120-150k range, life is gonna be just sweet. And if that life is in the Land of Little Ponies, I'm happy to saddle up.

It was refreshing to read this. This also is a major reason why I am aspiring towards academics. I agree...private practice vs. academics pose different challenges and involve dealing with different kinds of bull****...I just think that, despite financial compromises, I would much rather tolerate the bull**** in academics rather than that in private practice.

 

[LADoc00]

Listen, I would never argue that medicine is not a business and agree that an MBA would increase your earning potential a great deal. BUT -- and this is gonna just enrage LaDoc00, I know -- for those who want to live in the world of My Little Ponies, academics can be a nice life. I know LaDoc00 -- NOT YOUR CONCEPTION OF A GOOD LIFE -- but to some, a nice life. Sure, politics, grants, and all that jazz can get tough...but so can all the bull**** in business. The tone of so many conversations on this forum has turned to the $$$ and job aspects of path, but for those who are going to a top program, who will do good work, and who have a conception of "enough" that rests in the 120-150k range, life is gonna be just sweet. And if that life is in the Land of Little Ponies, I'm happy to saddle up.

Why I would get enraged? Every person in who is institutionalized in academics is one less person I have to worry about competing against in the business place. My dream world is where every pathologist is in academic med centers, I control all the country in between!

 

[gungho]

I got an MBA through one of the executive programs a few years after my first residency, thinking I wanted to go the management route. I would not recommend getting an MBA unless you want to make a career out of admin/mgmt. Whatever you might need to learn to run a lab or medical business can be obtained by taking specific classes, talking to people, or taking courses offered by various specialty organizations.

 

[deschutes]

Whatever you might need to learn to run a lab or medical business can be obtained by taking specific classes, talking to people, or taking courses offered by various specialty organizations.

Interesting that the same thing was said to me by a prof when I said I was planning to do AP/CP instead of straight AP.